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Old 14th Jul 2020, 23:14
  #381 (permalink)  
 
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Herd immunity is fine Until one of your family members dies from COVID-19.

on another note, few promising vaccines getting around the world.

https://www.modernatx.com
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 23:26
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, I should have written that it sounds plausible. Personally I think that as a government policy its immoral and criminally negligent.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 03:32
  #383 (permalink)  
 
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Herd immunity is fine Until one of your family members dies from COVID-19
Economic destruction is fine, until you are the one out of a job and cannot support your family.

Pick one.....
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 03:45
  #384 (permalink)  
 
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And there’s the rub

You can’t have one.You get both.

Everyone who has opened up now has the second wave. Use the USA, States having to shutdown as their hospitals fill up and even more people die than just the ones with Covid. Welcome to Pandemic town.

Victoria having to draft in the troops to drive the ambulance as they expect to have to stand down staff as they get infected.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 03:51
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Australopithecus said: “The Swedish laissez-faire model has resulted in a higher per-capita death rate ...“


While it seems intuitively to be the case, that statement is not proven and shouldn’t be stated with such authority. It may be correct or it may not be.

Sweden’s death rate while higher than its immediate neighbours is still lower than the UK, Belgium, Germany, Spain and Italy... all of whom locked down. Some other countries that did NOT lock down such as South Korea, Taipei and others have really low death rates.

Correlation does not prove causation.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 04:15
  #386 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alphacentauri
Economic destruction is fine, until you are the one out of a job and cannot support your family.

Pick one.....
I'm out of work and money is a very tight. Have had to withdraw super to make ends meet.

But I am very pleased that my immunocompromised mother and father with heart disease dont have to contend with Covid thanks very much.

Honestly, what choice would you make?
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 04:32
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alphacentauri
Economic destruction is fine, until you are the one out of a job and cannot support your family.

Pick one.....
I am out of job 😀 don’t think I’ll be getting a flying job anytime soon either.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 05:36
  #388 (permalink)  
 
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I'm out of work and money is a very tight. Have had to withdraw super to make ends meet.
You are not in the position I describe. I meant you have no money.

Honestly, my choice would be to let the virus run its course, with no lockdowns.

You can’t have one. You get both.
Not sure I agree with that statement.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 06:38
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Originally Posted by alphacentauri
You are not in the position I describe. I meant you have no money.

Honestly, my choice would be to let the virus run its course, with no lockdowns.


Not sure I agree with that statement.
Having no money is a very hard position to be in in Australia, almost impossible if you are a citizen or a PR holder.

Not a country on the planet has or are letting this virus run it's course, ALL are doing some preventative form of action - possibly the first time in history.

If this virus just cleared mostly the old (the pensioners collecting government cash and medical services) I doubt the government would be so concerned and splashing all the cash, so it is possible they are greatly concerned about it wiping out too many tax payers & need skilled workers immediately. This would require mass skilled worker migration to fill the immediate gaps for skilled workers.

I hope the government/s take a bit of time and work on when, where and how lock-downs happen if required & if I and my family need to take a bit more pain for that, it is ok with me.

Aviation is an industry that is taking a big hit, but it certainly will return.

Last edited by Bend alot; 15th Jul 2020 at 08:39. Reason: a p makes a big difference.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 06:41
  #390 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aviation_enthus
With the new outbreaks in Victoria it’s worth asking ‘the viewers at home’...

What is Australia’s strategy with COVID??

........
I'm with aviation-enthus on this.
Several countries, including Australia, seem to be unclear on what their end game is.
With no certainty of a vaccine coming along soon, some authorities seem to be hoping that by locking down, they will reach some kind of miraculous nirvana where everybody will be 100% safe.
Safe from what??
Before this pandemic, around 160,000 people died globally every day - of something. It may sound callous to say but there is every likelihood your immunocompromised mother and father with heart disease (and my 94 year old mum and 90 year old father or myself!) would succumb to something else in the next 5 years. Covid-19 is just another thing out there that is trying to get us and we have to deal with it like we deal with many other things.
To quote aviation-enthus again, the only sustainable way to deal with this is "Some sort of middle ground has to be found. Masks on, social distancing, build more ICU beds and PROPERLY isolate the vulnerable (especially in nursing homes etc)."
Are you really happy to continue living the way we are right now for the next 30 years if no vaccine comes along??? If not, what do you think is going to suddenly change?
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 06:50
  #391 (permalink)  
 
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I'm out of work and money is a very tight. Have had to withdraw super to make ends meet.
So am I and so did I, as well as organise payment 'holidays' on the car and home.

But I am very pleased that my immunocompromised mother and father with heart disease don't have to contend with Covid thanks very much.
Well, they sort of do, whether they are part of a lockdown or not. You cannot and will not be able to protect them from every single covid risk.

Honestly, what choice would you make?
You can protect your vulnerable folk just as well at home as can Chairman Dan, wait, hang on, you're probably much better off protecting your own than some arseclown trying to wrap himself in political glory.

Targeted lockdowns, if you don't play the covid game, you get your postcode locked down with the boys and girls in jungle green looking after you. Hotel isolation for returning travellers (including Danni).

State border closures are INSANE. There is NO covid in regional areas of VIC, but hang them, make them pay. Don't tell me this isn't about politics when QLD taxpayers are paying for Labor Party ads on high rating radio shows boasting about locking Victorians out of QLD.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 08:02
  #392 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HabuHunter
Australopithecus said: “The Swedish laissez-faire model has resulted in a higher per-capita death rate ...“


While it seems intuitively to be the case, that statement is not proven and shouldn’t be stated with such authority. It may be correct or it may not be.

Sweden’s death rate while higher than its immediate neighbours is still lower than the UK, Belgium, Germany, Spain and Italy... all of whom locked down. Some other countries that did NOT lock down such as South Korea, Taipei and others have really low death rates.

Correlation does not prove causation.
Kindly refrain from selectively quoting me. You clipped out the part where I wrote “Scandinavian neighbours”.

Its pointless to compare their death rate with countries run by populist clowns and populations intent on expressing their “freedumbs”

Denmark death rate 105/million pop
Norway death rate. 47/million
Finland death rate. 59/million

Sweden death rate 549/million

51/2 times higher than Denmark, 11 1/2 times higher than Norway.

sometimes post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a real thing.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 08:33
  #393 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Livinthedream320
The problem is that international travel in ALL forms aviation related has never ever been stopped from day dot into and out of Australia. Too many coverups and lies being told about this subject to the Australian public.
How can we contain a virus by isolating innocent Australians, closing boarders, destroying business and so on, and then ! continue allowing infected international travellers to arrive into Australia.

The only way to help the Australian economy and to stop the decline of Aviation in Australia and other business's, before its too late is stop all international travel before Australian aviation becomes decimated passed the point of return.
you seem to believe cases mean deaths. It all depends who gets corona. No healthy people have died, only oldies & others with diminished immunity.

Can't keep closing down a state just because of a few cases. Only 6 deaths in Qld, while at same time around 100 deaths on roads. Put it in perspective.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 08:40
  #394 (permalink)  
 
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There is no 'one model fits all' scenario as to how this pandemic is playing out around the world. There has to be a reasoned, rational trade off between health (deaths), the economy and future prosperity. We have to accept that deaths will occur from COVID, if we don't we might as well spend all day inside wrapped in cotton wool.

The lockdowns have no doubt increased mental health issues, substance abuse, domestic violence and suicide rates. These issues will continue to increase as the economy goes to sh!t when government wage support ceases.

Unfortunately many governments (not all) will try anything to reduce the death numbers, regardless of whether those folk were 90+, immuno-compromised or generally just outlived their life expectancy. The negative media associated with any deaths is behind much of this aim - totally removed from the reality of the situation just to grab a few clicks on a news article.

What's the solution? I don't know.

'Flattening the curve' (infection suppression through restricted activities) was done in an effort to not overwhelm ICU bed availability. I'd suggest that if ICU beds are still available, then restrictions can be eased, however there appears to be around a 7-10 day lag on infections and ICU intake. This severely increases the difficulty for governments making policy on the fly.

People will continue to flout the rules as it suppresses their daily activities and, let's face it, the virus is hardly life-threatening to the majority; I can hardly blame them.


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Old 15th Jul 2020, 08:40
  #395 (permalink)  
 
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Reply to BNEA320:

Don’t be a Cnut. The tide of Covid isn’t inevitable, and it can be turned back. And who the hell are you to decide? And stop spouting lies. Healthy people have died. Young healthy people. And you should be aware that there are lots of very bad outcomes for many survivors too. Outcomes that will diminish their health for the rest of their lives.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 08:58
  #396 (permalink)  
 
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The 300 health care workers that died on the job in the UK alone would be disappointed to here they were oldies and health compromised anyway.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 09:02
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Originally Posted by Xeptu
The 300 health care workers that died on the job in the UK alone would be disappointed to here they were oldies and health compromised anyway.
The tipping point is when there are no more ICU beds available to treat the sick that have life-threatening illnesses (of any cause).
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 10:07
  #398 (permalink)  
 
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As HabuHunter points out, South Korea and Taiwan have done very well indeed.

For reasons that would not, at this point, work in Australia.

Contact tracing methodology seen there would be too "intrusive".

Removal of all those who test positive to a government facility until deemed fit would be too "draconian".

Huge fines for failure to report symptoms "Orwellian".

Get used to the idea of those and we might get back to normal. Personally, I don't think there is a snowballs.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 10:07
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To quote aviation-enthus again, the only sustainable way to deal with this is "Some sort of middle ground has to be found. Masks on, social distancing, build more ICU beds and PROPERLY isolate the vulnerable (especially in nursing homes etc)."

Lapsap regarding the above sentence.


1. Masks- should only be worn if you have or tested positive with covid. If you have 100 people tested negative masks are pointless.
Additionally they reduce your O2 by 20% because your recycling some of your CO2 which is a by product (waste) once the red blood cells have finished it's job of transporting O2.
Hence all your body organs are getting 20% less O2. Well that's really good for your brain.
If you get sneezed on your mask is supposed to protect you. Like hell. Your hair, ears, forehead, neck, shoulders, shirt, pants, are totally coated with the virus.
Then you touch your mask, enough said. Don't forget your swimming goggles if you wear a musk, tear ducts absorb everything that's in front of you.
Minor points they mentally drag you down, can't see your lips move while talking, and you feel claustrophobic adding emotional stress.

2. Social distancing- Who came up with 1.5m. Really WHO came up with this shizen. If you sneeze in still air your particles will travel 5-7m they are released at 200kph.
Kylie Mole/Billie Eilish "der."

3. ICUs- Hospitals are places were you should avoid if you can. It's your last resort. If they put you on drugs and shizen food, they destroy gut lining. Well that's good for you immune system.
If they put you on a ventilator it does the breathing for you. To have one on, your lungs are in a pneumonitis state. Mucus is building in your alveolus and that needs to be coughed up.
You really think they would have a tube in there (the lungs) to vacuum out the gunk. If they don't it's like drowning in your own fluids. Please tell me 570,000 haven't died like this.
Your grandma and your great, always boiled some water, throw the tea towel over you and breath deep. A sauna and a hot shower has the same effect.
Notice you cough up a lot of mucus during it. Viruses hate hot saturated air.

4.-Isolate the vulnerable. Good idea. They have been doing that since Ancient Egypt, Roman Empire though our present day emperors will lockdown everything.


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Old 15th Jul 2020, 11:31
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Originally Posted by Turnleft080
To quote aviation-enthus again, the only sustainable way to deal with this is "Some sort of middle ground has to be found. Masks on, social distancing, build more ICU beds and PROPERLY isolate the vulnerable (especially in nursing homes etc)."

Lapsap regarding the above sentence.


1. Masks- should only be worn if you have or tested positive with covid. If you have 100 people tested negative masks are pointless.
Additionally they reduce your O2 by 20% because your recycling some of your CO2 which is a by product (waste) once the red blood cells have finished it's job of transporting O2.
Hence all your body organs are getting 20% less O2. Well that's really good for your brain.
If you get sneezed on your mask is supposed to protect you. Like hell. Your hair, ears, forehead, neck, shoulders, shirt, pants, are totally coated with the virus.
Then you touch your mask, enough said. Don't forget your swimming goggles if you wear a musk, tear ducts absorb everything that's in front of you.
Minor points they mentally drag you down, can't see your lips move while talking, and you feel claustrophobic adding emotional stress.

2. Social distancing- Who came up with 1.5m. Really WHO came up with this shizen. If you sneeze in still air your particles will travel 5-7m they are released at 200kph.
Kylie Mole/Billie Eilish "der."

3. ICUs- Hospitals are places were you should avoid if you can. It's your last resort. If they put you on drugs and shizen food, they destroy gut lining. Well that's good for you immune system.
If they put you on a ventilator it does the breathing for you. To have one on, your lungs are in a pneumonitis state. Mucus is building in your alveolus and that needs to be coughed up.
You really think they would have a tube in there (the lungs) to vacuum out the gunk. If they don't it's like drowning in your own fluids. Please tell me 570,000 haven't died like this.
Your grandma and your great, always boiled some water, throw the tea towel over you and breath deep. A sauna and a hot shower has the same effect.
Notice you cough up a lot of mucus during it. Viruses hate hot saturated air.

4.-Isolate the vulnerable. Good idea. They have been doing that since Ancient Egypt, Roman Empire though our present day emperors will lockdown everything.
Turnleft080, you’re clearly an expert on all matters Covid, so I will bow to your greater knowledge.
Suffice to say that none of those things individually are meant to be a solution but add layers of mitigation.
Having survived SARS in Hong Kong when there were up to 30 fatalities a day in a population of Just under 7 million then, there was no question it was a good idea to wear a mask on the MTR or bus. You see, unlike ‘tough Aussies’ we don’t feel silly wearing a mask in public and I don’t appear to have lost too many brain cells. I’m still in HK and have been wearing a mask the whole day at work as required by my employer. Does it help? I think it does. Does it do such tremendous harm, I don’t see any negative effects so far.
It would seem most of the objections are coming from people who feel their personal freedoms eroded.
If that’s you, please feel free to ride the HK MTR at peak time without a mask.
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