Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

All borders to reopen.

Old 8th Jan 2021, 23:28
  #2901 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: HKG
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well said aviation_enthus
Green.Dot is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2021, 23:29
  #2902 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NQLD
Age: 38
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Green.Dot
Look beyond the flightdeck and whether you are at MGH and have a good read of this and see what life is like on the other side of the globe... Hospitals at breaking point... civil unrest in the US is only the beginning... US Generals being asked to withhold Nuclear codes from a Rogue President. Sh*t is seriously messed up on a large scale worthy of a Hollywood script.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-...eaths/13044376

It would seem there is no happy ground in between “Elimination/Very High Suppression” and “Letting it run its course”. Good luck Brisbane, no one wants to see you follow Melbourne.
Look further than the USA and you’ll find countries living in the “happy ground” in the middle.

The UK has made almost no good decisions. TBH they would have just about been better to do nothing.

The USA is beset by the same political system problems as Australia. The health systems are run by the states, a lot of the health rules are set by the states, yet the federal government controls the international borders. Sound familiar? In my opinion a more localised response in a country the size of the USA makes more sense anyway, outbreaks have not been uniform nation wide.

Somewhere like NZ has one level of government able to make national decisions.

Sweden did “ok” in the first part of last year. By “ok” I mean it’s health system could cope with the ongoing infections.

I’m currently in the UAE. They completely reorganised the health system back in April (while under a very strict lockdown). They created multiple isolation field hospitals for COVID patients, dramatically expand testing and completely reorganised the school systems etc to ensure social distancing and isolation facilities existed. They currently process around 100,000 tests daily (for a population just under 10M). To be honest I’ve been quite impressed with the way they’re dealing with it. There is a good balance between allowing life to continue (schooling/work) while still restricting the spread of the virus (no large gatherings etc).
aviation_enthus is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2021, 23:50
  #2903 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: HKG
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Good that UAE has struck a balance.

I was more referring to countries that previously appeared to have things in check, (most European countries, Thailand, Japan, etc) and now the wheels are falling off.
Green.Dot is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2021, 23:50
  #2904 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kichin
Posts: 1,086
Received 799 Likes on 216 Posts
I’m currently in the UAE. They completely reorganised the health system back in April (while under a very strict lockdown). They created multiple isolation field hospitals for COVID patients, dramatically expand testing and completely reorganised the school systems etc to ensure social distancing and isolation facilities existed. They currently process around 100,000 tests daily (for a population just under 10M). To be honest I’ve been quite impressed with the way they’re dealing with it. There is a good balance between allowing life to continue (schooling/work) while still restricting the spread of the virus (no large gatherings etc).
The monarchy (benevolent dictatorship??) in the UAE can do that sort of thing without having to play all the angles politicians have to here. Not that we’ve done a bad job of saving lives in Oz.
gordonfvckingramsay is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 00:49
  #2905 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NQLD
Age: 38
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay
The monarchy (benevolent dictatorship??) in the UAE can do that sort of thing without having to play all the angles politicians have to here. Not that we’ve done a bad job of saving lives in Oz.
Yes that’s the (sometimes) benefit of being not a democracy. Same way China could do things no one else can get away with (dealing with the virus anyway).

UAE do well in a few areas due to this “advantage”. But that’s only because they are blessed with a reasonable leadership that actually want their country to succeed.

Australia hasn’t done a bad job. Never said otherwise. But Australia has the massive advantage of being an island that is relatively self sufficient. The relative advantages of individual countries should dictate strategy. The only countries Australians should be comparing themselves to are Singapore, NZ, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan. All are islands (or effectively so in S Korea case). I wouldn’t count the UK in this list as it’s directly connected to France (Chunnel) and is highly dependent on traffic to/from the continent.

That being said I’ll take the problems of a democracy over a benevolent dictatorship long term thanks. They do well when the leadership is good, much harder to change if the leadership is rubbish.
aviation_enthus is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 01:11
  #2906 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Perth, WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Age: 72
Posts: 896
Received 31 Likes on 17 Posts
Originally Posted by aviation_enthus
Yes that’s the (sometimes) benefit of being not a democracy. Same way China could do things no one else can get away with (dealing with the virus anyway).

UAE do well in a few areas due to this “advantage”. But that’s only because they are blessed with a reasonable leadership that actually want their country to succeed.

Australia hasn’t done a bad job. Never said otherwise. But Australia has the massive advantage of being an island that is relatively self sufficient. The relative advantages of individual countries should dictate strategy. The only countries Australians should be comparing themselves to are Singapore, NZ, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan. All are islands (or effectively so in S Korea case). I wouldn’t count the UK in this list as it’s directly connected to France (Chunnel) and is highly dependent on traffic to/from the continent.

That being said I’ll take the problems of a democracy over a benevolent dictatorship long term thanks. They do well when the leadership is good, much harder to change if the leadership is rubbish.
The advantage of being an island nation is the relative ease of controlling international travel.
Controlling ingress of potentially virulent arrivals is the key.
The UK is not exempt from this advantage. And the Chunnel is a poor excuse for not implementing effective movement controls.
Singapore has no Chunnel but it does have a causeway.
And ALL are highly dependent international trade.

In a sense you might even consider Western Australia an island within an island.
We have our Chunnel (the Nullabor highway) but it has been the effective (possibly Draconian and admittedly not perfect) implementation of border controls that has kept WA free of Covid in the wild for the last nine months.

You can't have it both ways.
WingNut60 is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 01:44
  #2907 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NQLD
Age: 38
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by WingNut60
The advantage of being an island nation is the relative ease of controlling international travel.
Controlling ingress of potentially virulent arrivals is the key.
The UK is not exempt from this advantage. And the Chunnel is a poor excuse for not implementing effective movement controls.
Singapore has no Chunnel but it does have a causeway.
And ALL are highly dependent international trade.

In a sense you might even consider Western Australia an island within an island.
We have our Chunnel (the Nullabor highway) but it has been the effective (possibly Draconian and admittedly not perfect) implementation of border controls that has kept WA free of Covid in the wild for the last nine months.

You can't have it both ways.
I can’t tell if you’re agreeing or disagreeing....

The UK is a completely different ball game simply because of its dependence on Europe. The Chunnel
is just one example. The other major one is the lack of international borders within the EU (in normal times). Creating a border from scratch is much harder than simply applying a restriction to something that already exists.

Singapore is highly dependent on the southern part of Malaysia BUT they actually have a competent government that can organise a chook raffle.

Like I said, various natural advantages should dictate a national strategy. For example trying to make Germany an “island” within Europe would not have worked.

Australians have be duped into thinking they have a “world class” quarantine system though. The government has been able to hide this fact for so long because we are an island and the huge advantage that comes with that.
aviation_enthus is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 02:09
  #2908 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 2,350
Received 464 Likes on 251 Posts
Originally Posted by aviation_enthus
The political narrative in Australia has not/is not preparing the Australian population for a RISE in cases once the vaccine is rolled out. I’m sure this will come, but given the political games being played, there’s plenty more “political fodder” to be made by playing the COVID fear game a it longer.

But after scaring the s*** out of people for what will be almost 2 years (by the time the vaccine is widely available), do you honestly think Australians will just ignore a rise in cases around the end of this year??
OK let's have a think.

We have a vaccine coming that will take the steam out of the health crisis. This vaccine has been developed safely at an unprecedented speed due to the amount of resources put into development. At the start of the pandemic I read best case scenario was end of 2021, so the fact members of the public were receiving Covid vaccinations in December 2020 is a testament to the knowledge and dedication of those medical scientists. It's come so quick that our own government has been able to bring our vaccination plan start date forward to next month, but has probably been caught on the back foot because of it's speed.

In terms of priority amongst all governments now would be containment of current outbreaks in Australia, then reducing risk for inbound international travelers. Once that is done then the vaccine plan comes in to effect, thought first of all needs to be given to which order various groups will receive it, then how it will be distributed, transport, vaccination sites and staff, an knowledge campaign to educate Australians on how to get the vaccine. Along with all the other functions of government at the time. So I can forgive the government if their number one priority right now isn't loudly shouting "Don't worry once we all get vaccinated and there's still some cases!" There's a lot of other higher priorities now, especially since the vaccine rollout is being expedited.

That type of messaging is probably best left towards the end of the vaccine program rather than the start. If people get complacent with messaging that a few cases aren't a problem then the things that are still required at the moment like hygiene, social distancing, app check ins etc may become lax. If the PM just says: "Now we have herd immunity don't worry about low numbers of isolated cases, the consequences of that are not as bad as before when we did not have immunity" at the end of the rollout that's probably enough.

We can see some indication of what future messaging will look like when we get to this stage from this Federal Health Department document:

Australian Health Sector Emergency Response Plan for Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Page 45 under the Standown Stage - Public Messaging heading. Plans that will be implemented include "Advise of the commencement of transition to normal arrangements and how this will be managed", "Coordinate public messaging through media networks", "Notify the public that services will transition to normal arrangements and the reason for this" and "Provide the media with access to information regarding the change of the status of disease spread and the transition of the response". That last point will be crucial to ensure the media don't continue to portray low numbers of cases as a serious health threat as it is now. This messaging is the correct one but as the document states it wouldn't be prudent to start this messaging until well into the vaccine program.

As a side note there's also some information in that document about the future of borders and air travel in a Covid normal world.

It's easy to think that politicians are just playing political games for votes, and in some respects that has been true, but they all have a goal for re-opening as soon as safely possible and there's official policy out there about this if you look hard enough. I know as pilots we would want these politicians to be shouting the end game at the top of their lungs so we have the assurance our industry will be back to normal at a specific time, but that will come within time as this vaccine program is rolled out.
dr dre is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 02:14
  #2909 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Posts: 363
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 3 Posts
Trying to figure out the logic raised by the latest case of a UK arrival to Melbourne travelling to QLD.
Seems you are better off arriving and testing positive ASAP.
That way you go straight into isolation (as opposed to quarantine) for 10 days and are allowed out.
Meanwhile the rest of us mugs who worked hard to stay Covid free and returned, sit there for 14days .
How does that work??!!
Health Minister says that’s completely in line with international and domestic protocols.
Say what???!
LapSap is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 02:23
  #2910 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NQLD
Age: 38
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by dr dre
OK let's have a think.

We have a vaccine coming that will take the steam out of the health crisis. This vaccine has been developed safely at an unprecedented speed due to the amount of resources put into development. At the start of the pandemic I read best case scenario was end of 2021, so the fact members of the public were receiving Covid vaccinations in December 2020 is a testament to the knowledge and dedication of those medical scientists. It's come so quick that our own government has been able to bring our vaccination plan start date forward to next month, but has probably been caught on the back foot because of it's speed.

In terms of priority amongst all governments now would be containment of current outbreaks in Australia, then reducing risk for inbound international travelers. Once that is done then the vaccine plan comes in to effect, thought first of all needs to be given to which order various groups will receive it, then how it will be distributed, transport, vaccination sites and staff, an knowledge campaign to educate Australians on how to get the vaccine. Along with all the other functions of government at the time. So I can forgive the government if their number one priority right now isn't loudly shouting "Don't worry once we all get vaccinated and there's still some cases!" There's a lot of other higher priorities now, especially since the vaccine rollout is being expedited.

That type of messaging is probably best left towards the end of the vaccine program rather than the start. If people get complacent with messaging that a few cases aren't a problem then the things that are still required at the moment like hygiene, social distancing, app check ins etc may become lax. If the PM just says: "Now we have herd immunity don't worry about low numbers of isolated cases, the consequences of that are not as bad as before when we did not have immunity" at the end of the rollout that's probably enough.

We can see some indication of what future messaging will look like when we get to this stage from this Federal Health Department document:

Australian Health Sector Emergency Response Plan for Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Page 45 under the Standown Stage - Public Messaging heading. Plans that will be implemented include "Advise of the commencement of transition to normal arrangements and how this will be managed", "Coordinate public messaging through media networks", "Notify the public that services will transition to normal arrangements and the reason for this" and "Provide the media with access to information regarding the change of the status of disease spread and the transition of the response". That last point will be crucial to ensure the media don't continue to portray low numbers of cases as a serious health threat as it is now. This messaging is the correct one but as the document states it wouldn't be prudent to start this messaging until well into the vaccine program.

As a side note there's also some information in that document about the future of borders and air travel in a Covid normal world.

It's easy to think that politicians are just playing political games for votes, and in some respects that has been true, but they all have a goal for re-opening as soon as safely possible and there's official policy out there about this if you look hard enough. I know as pilots we would want these politicians to be shouting the end game at the top of their lungs so we have the assurance our industry will be back to normal at a specific time, but that will come within time as this vaccine program is rolled out.
Thanks for the well thought out reply. Doesn’t happen to much on here! Hahaha!

I agree the messaging should NOT change now. Nothing has changed as far as the virus goes (containment is key). Nothing will change until the vaccination levels are well past 70% I would imagine.

It’s the political games that worry me I guess. While some decisions are made for public health reasons, the fact remains, an “external” crisis is always a vote winner for an incumbent government. People don’t like to change teams in an emergency/pandemic/wartime.
aviation_enthus is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 02:49
  #2911 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 4,327
Received 159 Likes on 76 Posts
Originally Posted by LapSap
Trying to figure out the logic raised by the latest case of a UK arrival to Melbourne travelling to QLD.
Seems you are better off arriving and testing positive ASAP.
That way you go straight into isolation (as opposed to quarantine) for 10 days and are allowed out.
Meanwhile the rest of us mugs who worked hard to stay Covid free and returned, sit there for 14days .
How does that work??!!
Health Minister says that’s completely in line with international and domestic protocols.
Say what???!
It’s really not that hard. My 11yo read about it and explained it to his brother.

very very simply

From exposure day you may develop COVID and become infectious at any point in the next 14 days.

From when symptoms develop and you are tested as positive you only remain infectious for up to ten days and have been symptom free for three.

So diagnosed day 1, symptoms for a week. Three day buffer. Out on day 10 (that’s 7+3)

The reason why they don’t test on exit to date is that you can still test positive for weeks but you are no longer infectious. Won’t achieve much - but might with the variants.

compressor stall is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 03:05
  #2912 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Posts: 363
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by compressor stall
It’s really not that hard. My 11yo read about it and explained it to his brother.

very very simply

From exposure day you may develop COVID and become infectious at any point in the next 14 days.

From when symptoms develop and you are tested as positive you only remain infectious for up to ten days and have been symptom free for three.

So diagnosed day 1, symptoms for a week. Three day buffer. Out on day 10 (that’s 7+3)

The reason why they don’t test on exit to date is that you can still test positive for weeks but you are no longer infectious. Won’t achieve much - but might with the variants.
Thanks for the reply.
I only returned about a month ago but until then at least, nobody was tested in the hotel until day 10 at the earliest. Provided negative, out on day 14.
How do you go about getting tested on Day 1?
Don’t tell me- had a cough and sniffles while filling in the BF form?
Check with your 11 yo would you?

LapSap is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 03:11
  #2913 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 4,327
Received 159 Likes on 76 Posts
Originally Posted by LapSap
Thanks for the reply.
I only returned about a month ago but until then at least, nobody was tested in the hotel until day 10 at the earliest. Provided negative, out on day 14.
How do you go about getting tested on Day 1?
Check with your 11 yo would you?
If you are symptomatic you will be. (Although YMMV from state to state on triggers for that).
compressor stall is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 06:22
  #2914 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Equatorial
Age: 51
Posts: 1,097
Received 159 Likes on 76 Posts
Q hotel when I did it -

Day 1 - Covid test (second day in hotel as arrival day was day ZERO. Remember this well as 1st ever C test),
Day 12 (I think but can’t remember, result day 13, free next day?) - Covid test.

Obviously negative on second one and set free, I chose to leave the Q hotel very early, had to book the release time.

My additional observations no way one could have escaped without being seen, all contacts sticky PPE, anything leaving the room put in plastic bags.

Cant see why hotel Q does not work nationwide, it should if done right and not have the ridiculous caps.
Global Aviator is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 06:39
  #2915 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 3,103
Received 188 Likes on 77 Posts
The entire Australian problem has always been the staff of the Hotel spreading it through the community, not the actual occupants themselves.
neville_nobody is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 06:46
  #2916 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NQLD
Age: 38
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Global Aviator
Q hotel when I did it -

Day 1 - Covid test (second day in hotel as arrival day was day ZERO. Remember this well as 1st ever C test),
Day 12 (I think but can’t remember, result day 13, free next day?) - Covid test.

Obviously negative on second one and set free, I chose to leave the Q hotel very early, had to book the release time.

My additional observations no way one could have escaped without being seen, all contacts sticky PPE, anything leaving the room put in plastic bags.

Cant see why hotel Q does not work nationwide, it should if done right and not have the ridiculous caps.
Yes it should work. This is the fact that annoys me the most, the current setup is not good enough for a country that is aiming zero cases.

Testing on departure:
- should have been implemented at least 6 months ago when widespread testing became available. I know it doesn’t guarantee no positive cases would arrive, but what it does do is provide a “first stage” filter to the system. At the very least it would reduce the number of positive cases in quarantine in Australia.

Quarantine hotels for flight crew:
- again this MASSIVE loophole should have been closed back in April at the latest. I think every single capital city airport has a large hotel either at the airport or nearby. This should have been allocated for flight crew only and posted with some sort of security force.

Testing for quarantine hotel staff and security:
- as the system was developed, anyone with a second job should have been removed from the staff. Anyone living with vulnerable people should have been removed from the staff. Testing should have been every 2-3 days (not weekly). Basically create a full time, reasonably paid, semi isolated pool of staff that reduces (not able to be eliminated) the risk of transfer to the wider public. This includes the transport drivers to/from hotels.

Masks and social distancing:
- I’ve been to Australia multiple times since March and I’ve got to say I’ve been surprised how relaxed some of the border staff have been greeting international flights. Regularly saw no masks, no clear plastic barriers on desks, etc.

As for the constant demands to move it from large CBD hotels.... Personally I don’t see the issue, IF it’s run properly as I’ve described above. Reality is, building a “detention centre” next to Alice Springs wouldn’t work. It would cost far more money than they currently spend, the union workers wouldn’t have even started construction yet and it’s impractical from and airline point of view (what about the freight???). So using large, empty buildings, close to respective airports, with a capable pool of staff nearby, makes sense for what is supposed to be a time limited requirement.

Basically what I’m saying is, you want to isolate from the rest of the world, do it properly!!! All these loopholes and weak areas have taken almost 10 months to fix.
aviation_enthus is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 11:40
  #2917 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
Posts: 3,363
Received 193 Likes on 81 Posts
Testing on departure:
- should have been implemented at least 6 months ago when widespread testing became available. I know it doesn’t guarantee no positive cases would arrive, but what it does do is provide a “first stage” filter to the system. At the very least it would reduce the number of positive cases in quarantine in Australia.
So what happens to the people who show a negative test prior to departure? Do they get released into the wild on arrival as if it was a Green flight? It would be a hard sell to expect them to pay for 14 days of quarantine when they just proved to you they don't have the disease. If it doesn't guarantee that no cases will get in, you may as well just take all the ones coming back and quarantine them anyway. In the great scheme of things, the number of positive cases in quarantine vs the number of people rotating through quarantine is 4/5ths of f*ck all (in QLD currently 21 out of 3975 people in active quarantine). Make the system that contains them work, and welcome back!

surprised how relaxed some of the border staff have been greeting international flights. Regularly saw no masks, no clear plastic barriers on desks, etc.
And yet with the hundreds of thousands of returned travelers since March, practically no Border staff have contracted COVID, even with their lax protocols. Funny that.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 20:17
  #2918 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Equatorial
Age: 51
Posts: 1,097
Received 159 Likes on 76 Posts
All of the QF repatriation flights required a negative Covid test prior to departing. This doesn’t stop
cases popping up in Q as we know. That is what Q is being used for.
Global Aviator is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 20:29
  #2919 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 924
Received 33 Likes on 16 Posts
Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was
So what happens to the people who show a negative test prior to departure? Do they get released into the wild on arrival as if it was a Green flight? It would be a hard sell to expect them to pay for 14 days of quarantine when they just proved to you they don't have the disease. If it doesn't guarantee that no cases will get in, you may as well just take all the ones coming back and quarantine them anyway. In the great scheme of things, the number of positive cases in quarantine vs the number of people rotating through quarantine is 4/5ths of f*ck all (in QLD currently 21 out of 3975 people in active quarantine). Make the system that contains them work, and welcome back!


And yet with the hundreds of thousands of returned travelers since March, practically no Border staff have contracted COVID, even with their lax protocols. Funny that.
If you read it again, you will find it is the 1st stage filter.
Not a free green card into the wild.

Very few if any details are released other than ground zero cases in a spread/cluster only numbers - other than the number of health care workers that have been infected.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2021, 20:43
  #2920 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: melbourne
Posts: 789
Received 71 Likes on 39 Posts
Originally Posted by Global Aviator
All of the QF repatriation flights required a negative Covid test prior to departing. This doesn’t stop
cases popping up in Q as we know. That is what Q is being used for.
6 new cases from quarantine in victorian numbers this morning although they did say yesterday to expect this due to 11th day tests etc.
Although its a small number it shows that overseas arrivals are still bringing it into the country & for now at least (& who knows how long) the arrival numbers are going to have to be strictly controlled & placed in quarantine.
Its not good for those waiting to come back but unfortunately with what we are dealing with nothing can or will change if we want our current covid normal freedoms to continue.
blubak is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.