How good is Alliance!!!!
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TFH2
It is a great victory for all Alliance pilots and for you personally. It shows what can be achieved when you are all motivated strongly on an issue. Hopefully this works for you at EBA time. I personally have never felt hate for people I have never met, but I understand in your case it exists.
A small point of order, the aircraft might be right size etc, but the main reason Alliance pilots are now the chosen ones of the QF group is because you are 60K cheaper then a 717 driver and 100K cheaper then a B737 driver. Those savings will mostly be absorbed in bonus by your bosses and QF mainline bosses so think of that as well
If some of the E-Jets are painted in Qantaslink colours will you refuse to wear the Qantas uniform ? Thats the next battle for you. Good luck !
It is a great victory for all Alliance pilots and for you personally. It shows what can be achieved when you are all motivated strongly on an issue. Hopefully this works for you at EBA time. I personally have never felt hate for people I have never met, but I understand in your case it exists.
A small point of order, the aircraft might be right size etc, but the main reason Alliance pilots are now the chosen ones of the QF group is because you are 60K cheaper then a 717 driver and 100K cheaper then a B737 driver. Those savings will mostly be absorbed in bonus by your bosses and QF mainline bosses so think of that as well
If some of the E-Jets are painted in Qantaslink colours will you refuse to wear the Qantas uniform ? Thats the next battle for you. Good luck !
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I would imagine if accepted they would become ex-Alliance pilots. I don't think the same is being suggested for the LWOP Qantas pilots.
Originally Posted by Green.Dot
Please tell us why you hate Qantas pilots so much...
Most of us in QF couldn’t give a toss which company we work for, we just want a secure job flying aeroplanes and wish the same for other pilots in other airlines.
Personally I think it’s entirely fair that Alliance pilots/E-Jet pilots are offered the slots before non type rated pilots.
Most of us in QF couldn’t give a toss which company we work for, we just want a secure job flying aeroplanes and wish the same for other pilots in other airlines.
Personally I think it’s entirely fair that Alliance pilots/E-Jet pilots are offered the slots before non type rated pilots.
if Alliance choose to help out QF pilots then good for them but its their decision, Qantas does not get a say in it. They can simply put an offer on the table like offering to pay for all the training etc..
As i said earlier Im sure the QF crew are very nice people.
Originally Posted by Overspeed1
Consider this, the lowest paid pilot on long haul (787 SO) is currently costing Qantas over 15k a year stood down. If said pilot agrees to 3 years LWOP and Qantas agrees to kick in 30k for training to get them off the books, it’s a win for everyone and do you think Alliance wouldn’t be licking their lips over that? Just remember I used the cheapest example as well.
As for a company not screwing over their workforce to please a large blue chip client... You do work in aviation right?
Plus they just advertised for direct entry Capt and Fo to fly the brand new toys. In my experience, that usually counts as screwing your existing pilots out of an opportunity.
All of this aside, I don’t think the QF thing will matter that much anyway. No matter what’s in the agreement QF will understand that Alliance can’t be expected to crew the whole thing with LWOP pilots who are going to vanish in a couple of years. That’d be poor risk management. Additionally, there just won’t be that many takers for Adelaide and Darwin, most of QF doesn’t live there and won’t move. There’ll be a few QF folk over there just so management can say “look we helped the stood down pilots out” but I wouldn’t get too worried about it, it’ll be a small percentage in the grand scheme of things.
As for a company not screwing over their workforce to please a large blue chip client... You do work in aviation right?
Plus they just advertised for direct entry Capt and Fo to fly the brand new toys. In my experience, that usually counts as screwing your existing pilots out of an opportunity.
All of this aside, I don’t think the QF thing will matter that much anyway. No matter what’s in the agreement QF will understand that Alliance can’t be expected to crew the whole thing with LWOP pilots who are going to vanish in a couple of years. That’d be poor risk management. Additionally, there just won’t be that many takers for Adelaide and Darwin, most of QF doesn’t live there and won’t move. There’ll be a few QF folk over there just so management can say “look we helped the stood down pilots out” but I wouldn’t get too worried about it, it’ll be a small percentage in the grand scheme of things.
That is not screwing over your work force, they need these guys and a lot of the F100 drivers simply have no interest in doing a new type for the sake of it. They are happy where they are. Yes Alliance will take QF pilots with all training paid for, firstly because they simply will not have enough of their own pilots, there wont be enough type rated new joiners and lastly if it is a choice of a perfectly good king air pilot or a QF pilot where QF offers to absorb all the costs, the king air pilot will unfortunately miss out.
Again Alliance will look at this through business lenses but ultimately have to consider their own work force and the repercussions if they completely screwed them over which as I have said they wont. Some Alliance guys will move to the e-jet but Alliance are introducing a new type with ZERO experience, they need type rated captains and FO's.
As for QF guys not prepared to move to Darwin or Adelaide or do the commute, dont complain when people say you were offered an opportunity but decided to turn it down because it is not Sydney or does not pay a QF salary. Thats on them if they are offered something and turn it down.
Originally Posted by goodonyamate
And remember...noone said it would be all QF LWOP. If they offer one position in each rank, they’ve kept their word!
no high horse here. You seem to be so emotive about the whole thing. So much so you’ve gone from denigrating QF pilots on here, and then once you think you’ve ‘got your way’ you’ve wished them the best. Throw the toys out, have a tantrum. What you or I or anyone else says at the end of the day is irrelevant. They are businesses. They will do what is best for them, regardless of the perceived fairness or impact on staff
no high horse here. You seem to be so emotive about the whole thing. So much so you’ve gone from denigrating QF pilots on here, and then once you think you’ve ‘got your way’ you’ve wished them the best. Throw the toys out, have a tantrum. What you or I or anyone else says at the end of the day is irrelevant. They are businesses. They will do what is best for them, regardless of the perceived fairness or impact on staff
Alliance will as you said do what is in their best interest, it just wont be (as some seem to think) with the approval of QF with regards to crewing their own aircraft. They get no say in that, just a favour done for them. When you are paying for all the training of QF pilots on an Alliance e-jet you are hardly dictating terms are you...
Im not throwing my toys out of the cot, if Alliance screw over their own work force purely for business reason then so be it. Its not my problem. I hope they dont as there will be repercussions when the economy bounces back. Taking on a few QF guys will not be considered screwing over your own work force as Alliance simply dont have enough pilots anyway.
Who knows maybe the QF pilots end up on the F100 and the Alliance guy goes to the e-jet.
All QF are interested in anyway is making sure they get that flying done, helping out a few of their pilots is a bonus.
Originally Posted by Beer Baron
You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next. If there is "some agreement in place looking for a favour or to help their stood down crew out" then that is having a "say" in who they hire. No one suggests that Qantas have the final determination but they are having a say in who flies the aircraft on their routes, with their customers, in their livery.
The crewing of aircraft is an Alliance decision, NOT A QANTAS decision. QF simply offered Alliance the opportunity to fly under contract certain regional routes due to the 737 losing money on those routes. Alliance accepted the deal. Somewhere in that deal Alliance have offered to have QF staff fly e-jets but Qantas does not get to say only QF staff fly those routes because they are flying our customers in our livery.
That is simply FALSE. Alliance will schedule whatever qualified e-jet pilots they have on the books to fly any route they as a company fly. It may be a QF pilot and Alliance pilot together, 2 QF pilots or 2 Alliance pilots but Alliance scheduling and the company will have the final say on this. They simply will not allow Qantas to dictate to them how they schedule pilots to fly their own aircraft.
Last edited by TinFoilhat2; 11th Feb 2021 at 16:06.
As someone alluded to in a previous post, Qantas is giving Alliance tens of millions of dollars of work and they own just under 20%. If you have had business experience at all, you would know that this will give Q a very big say (if they want to) in who gets hired. They won't preside over every Interview but if Alliance say they will hire some Qantas folks and 3 months later they haven't hired any, or much fewer than they agreed to Qantas will want to know why.
For Qantas to introduce the Ejet for better economics, and use Qantas pilots, then wouldn't it be better if Qantas bought their own fleet of Ejets? It will be a new type for Qantas, just as it is for Alliance, so there's no real operational advantage in having Alliance introduce the new type. Both will need type rated and experienced Ejet pilots initially to get the ball rolling. I would have thought it'd be easier for Qantas to buy their own Ejets and have the Cobham B717 fleet take care of it. After all, Cobham do have past operational experience with the Ejet and I'm sure some of the B717 crew already have time on type.
If Qantas likes the Ejets, much easier to get someone else to buy them and crew them. No risk for old Q, only Alliance. Probably some sort of fee for departure deal.
Why would Qantas buy a new type when someone else will do it and crew it for half the cost?
Why would Qantas buy a new type when someone else will do it and crew it for half the cost?
Originally Posted by Climb150
Why would Qantas buy a new type when someone else will do it and crew it for half the cost?
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Originally Posted by TinFoilhat2
I have absolutely no problem with QF pilots. I have a problem with people who think a contract airline doing business on their behalf owe them some kind of favour or goodwill, they dont. Its just business not some kind of mob deal struck up in a back alley.
if Alliance choose to help out QF pilots then good for them but its their decision, Qantas does not get a say in it. They can simply put an offer on the table like offering to pay for all the training etc..
As i said earlier Im sure the QF crew are very nice people.
if Alliance choose to help out QF pilots then good for them but its their decision, Qantas does not get a say in it. They can simply put an offer on the table like offering to pay for all the training etc..
As i said earlier Im sure the QF crew are very nice people.
there you go again. Where did anyone say they were owed something. It was brought up that QF pilots had been explicitly told by the acting CP that there would be LWOP opportunities. That was posted here. QF pilots who may be eligible saw this as a green shoot. Then you came in bagging everyone and anyone who’d ever had anything to do with QF and apparently started some kind of movement to ban QF pilots from everything.
I haven’t seen many if any current alliance crew jump in. You’re not that bloke who offered to crew the 350 with ex China Southern crew are you?
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Probably not of interest to any of the Anti Qaxxers or even the Pro Qaxxers for that matter (ie in the style of Anti and Pro Vaxxers one having strong feelings about QF doing what appears to be the corporate and socially responsible position of looking out for its stood down staff and putting their bums in a seat of another airline's jet - the Emirati gigs come to mind)
This week's ASX results and what they do and are doing at Alliance deserves a read.
This week's ASX results and what they do and are doing at Alliance deserves a read.
Cobham B717 fleet take care of it. After all, Cobham do have past operational experience with the Ejet
Originally Posted by Climb150
As someone alluded to in a previous post, Qantas is giving Alliance tens of millions of dollars of work and they own just under 20%. If you have had business experience at all, you would know that this will give Q a very big say (if they want to) in who gets hired. They won't preside over every Interview but if Alliance say they will hire some Qantas folks and 3 months later they haven't hired any, or much fewer than they agreed to Qantas will want to know why.
The other 80 percent of the company have a bigger say on who gets hired and legally the contract will be about the flying, not pilot hiring. There is a simple reason for that, neither Alliance or QF can guarantee that at all times a certain percentage of QF pilots will occupy a certain percentage of e-jet seats or flights.
Hence it is an added bonus if some QF international pilots get hired, not a LEGAL REQUIREMENT as per the regional flying contract deal! as for the tens of millions of dollars in a deal being offered, they are free to take that deal and offer it to somebody else however we both no there really is nobody else that can do it so QF is in a bind and need Alliance more than Alliance need them.
Originally Posted by goodonyamate
there you go again. Where did anyone say they were owed something. It was brought up that QF pilots had been explicitly told by the acting CP that there would be LWOP opportunities. That was posted here. QF pilots who may be eligible saw this as a green shoot. Then you came in bagging everyone and anyone who’d ever had anything to do with QF and apparently started some kind of movement to ban QF pilots from everything.
I haven’t seen many if any current alliance crew jump in. You’re not that bloke who offered to crew the 350 with ex China Southern crew are you?
I haven’t seen many if any current alliance crew jump in. You’re not that bloke who offered to crew the 350 with ex China Southern crew are you?
The argument was who gets the final say. You seem to think QF has some kind of legal agreement in place and can demand what they want with regards to what pilots fly Alliance aircraft, they don’t. They allowed Alliance to fly regional routes for them, routes they were losing money on by the way with the 737. That’s the deal in place, the rest is just a bonus
Under that agreement, very much an ACMI style agreement, they provide aircraft, crew, Mx and Insurance. They will try to help out QF international crew but Alliance has the final say, not Qantas. Alliance is an independent company with independent management. Qantas get no say in the day to day running of the company or who crew their aircraft.
Im not sure why you find this so hard to understand. It’s nothing to do with liking or disliking QF pilots. Do you think Virgin get any say in who fly Alliance aircraft and on what routes, of course they don’t and they have done work for them.
Its a simple wet lease with all crew being Alliance crew paid by Alliance. VA get no say and neither will Qantas, just a favor done to try help their international pilots. That favor includes QF paying for all their training and absorbing the costs.
Alliance did not get the contract on condition they hired QF staff, they got the contract regardless of whether they took on QF staff. Alliance don’t have enough pilots so this financial agreement benefits them. However type rated will be hired first, I know this for a fact. Secondly if Alliance choose to replace those QF pilots at any stage they have every right to and there is not a thing Qantas can do about it.
They are an independent company and not beholden to Qantas in any way shape or form. This is not an anti QF pilot rant.
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At least 1/2 of the new e-jets are going to be painted in the Qantaslink livery. This is definitely happening and is a branding requirement by Qf - Cobham and Network do the same
Cobham and Network crews wear the same uniforms as QF mainline. In the companies eyes they are Qantas pilots also - this is often mentioned in internal communications. I personally have no problem with it.
So as per my earlier question to you is will you stand on principal and tell Alliance you will refuse to wear the above uniform because Qantas should not have a say in your work attire ? Or will you, in effect, become the thing you hate the most in this world - a Qantas pilot.
Read the end of George Orwells 1984 if you don't understand what I am talking about.
At least 1/2 of the new e-jets are going to be painted in the Qantaslink livery. This is definitely happening and is a branding requirement by Qf - Cobham and Network do the same
Cobham and Network crews wear the same uniforms as QF mainline. In the companies eyes they are Qantas pilots also - this is often mentioned in internal communications. I personally have no problem with it.
So as per my earlier question to you is will you stand on principal and tell Alliance you will refuse to wear the above uniform because Qantas should not have a say in your work attire ? Or will you, in effect, become the thing you hate the most in this world - a Qantas pilot.
Read the end of George Orwells 1984 if you don't understand what I am talking about.
Nobody said anything bad about QF pilots
I realise the QF skygods are better than all of us mere mortals and it will come as a shock as to why Alliance does not beg them to fly their planes
