Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

How good is Alliance!!!!

Old 11th Feb 2021, 08:24
  #281 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Unfortunately not the Orient
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 88 Likes on 32 Posts
If Qantas Pilots are now being excluded from employment at Alliance, what happens when Alliance pilots apply to Qantas?
SandyPalms is online now  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 11:11
  #282 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
Posts: 3,337
Received 182 Likes on 75 Posts
I would imagine if accepted they would become ex-Alliance pilots. I don't think the same is being suggested for the LWOP Qantas pilots.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 13:50
  #283 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 134
Received 16 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Green.Dot
Please tell us why you hate Qantas pilots so much...

Most of us in QF couldn’t give a toss which company we work for, we just want a secure job flying aeroplanes and wish the same for other pilots in other airlines.

Personally I think it’s entirely fair that Alliance pilots/E-Jet pilots are offered the slots before non type rated pilots.
I have absolutely no problem with QF pilots. I have a problem with people who think a contract airline doing business on their behalf owe them some kind of favour or goodwill, they dont. Its just business not some kind of mob deal struck up in a back alley.

if Alliance choose to help out QF pilots then good for them but its their decision, Qantas does not get a say in it. They can simply put an offer on the table like offering to pay for all the training etc..

As i said earlier Im sure the QF crew are very nice people.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 14:05
  #284 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 134
Received 16 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Overspeed1
Consider this, the lowest paid pilot on long haul (787 SO) is currently costing Qantas over 15k a year stood down. If said pilot agrees to 3 years LWOP and Qantas agrees to kick in 30k for training to get them off the books, it’s a win for everyone and do you think Alliance wouldn’t be licking their lips over that? Just remember I used the cheapest example as well.

As for a company not screwing over their workforce to please a large blue chip client... You do work in aviation right?

Plus they just advertised for direct entry Capt and Fo to fly the brand new toys. In my experience, that usually counts as screwing your existing pilots out of an opportunity.

All of this aside, I don’t think the QF thing will matter that much anyway. No matter what’s in the agreement QF will understand that Alliance can’t be expected to crew the whole thing with LWOP pilots who are going to vanish in a couple of years. That’d be poor risk management. Additionally, there just won’t be that many takers for Adelaide and Darwin, most of QF doesn’t live there and won’t move. There’ll be a few QF folk over there just so management can say “look we helped the stood down pilots out” but I wouldn’t get too worried about it, it’ll be a small percentage in the grand scheme of things.
I said all along that type rated E-Jet pilots were first choice, thats because they have no experience on type and CASA has noted that as well. Hence VA ex e-jet training captains have already been hired on a deal, sent to the sim in Europe and gearing up for the intake of e-jet pilots.

That is not screwing over your work force, they need these guys and a lot of the F100 drivers simply have no interest in doing a new type for the sake of it. They are happy where they are. Yes Alliance will take QF pilots with all training paid for, firstly because they simply will not have enough of their own pilots, there wont be enough type rated new joiners and lastly if it is a choice of a perfectly good king air pilot or a QF pilot where QF offers to absorb all the costs, the king air pilot will unfortunately miss out.

Again Alliance will look at this through business lenses but ultimately have to consider their own work force and the repercussions if they completely screwed them over which as I have said they wont. Some Alliance guys will move to the e-jet but Alliance are introducing a new type with ZERO experience, they need type rated captains and FO's.

As for QF guys not prepared to move to Darwin or Adelaide or do the commute, dont complain when people say you were offered an opportunity but decided to turn it down because it is not Sydney or does not pay a QF salary. Thats on them if they are offered something and turn it down.

TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 14:22
  #285 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 134
Received 16 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by goodonyamate
And remember...noone said it would be all QF LWOP. If they offer one position in each rank, they’ve kept their word!

no high horse here. You seem to be so emotive about the whole thing. So much so you’ve gone from denigrating QF pilots on here, and then once you think you’ve ‘got your way’ you’ve wished them the best. Throw the toys out, have a tantrum. What you or I or anyone else says at the end of the day is irrelevant. They are businesses. They will do what is best for them, regardless of the perceived fairness or impact on staff
Im not emotional over this, Im simply stating QF will not get all their own way. I have no problem with QF pilots and wish them well. There will be the odd QF skygod, thats a given (Lets not pretend there are none). The odd skygod does not represent the QF group as a whole and Im sure the majority are decent people.

Alliance will as you said do what is in their best interest, it just wont be (as some seem to think) with the approval of QF with regards to crewing their own aircraft. They get no say in that, just a favour done for them. When you are paying for all the training of QF pilots on an Alliance e-jet you are hardly dictating terms are you...

Im not throwing my toys out of the cot, if Alliance screw over their own work force purely for business reason then so be it. Its not my problem. I hope they dont as there will be repercussions when the economy bounces back. Taking on a few QF guys will not be considered screwing over your own work force as Alliance simply dont have enough pilots anyway.

Who knows maybe the QF pilots end up on the F100 and the Alliance guy goes to the e-jet.

All QF are interested in anyway is making sure they get that flying done, helping out a few of their pilots is a bonus.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 14:34
  #286 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 134
Received 16 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Beer Baron
You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next. If there is "some agreement in place looking for a favour or to help their stood down crew out" then that is having a "say" in who they hire. No one suggests that Qantas have the final determination but they are having a say in who flies the aircraft on their routes, with their customers, in their livery.
I think you better look up the meaning of 'contradict yourself'. An agreement in place where QF has to pay for all the training and absorb all the costs is not having a say. Alliance has either offered or QF has suggested this might be a deal to benefit both sides but ultimately ALLIANCE and Alliance alone get the final say on who fly their aircraft, Im not sure why you are finding that so difficult.

The crewing of aircraft is an Alliance decision, NOT A QANTAS decision. QF simply offered Alliance the opportunity to fly under contract certain regional routes due to the 737 losing money on those routes. Alliance accepted the deal. Somewhere in that deal Alliance have offered to have QF staff fly e-jets but Qantas does not get to say only QF staff fly those routes because they are flying our customers in our livery.

That is simply FALSE. Alliance will schedule whatever qualified e-jet pilots they have on the books to fly any route they as a company fly. It may be a QF pilot and Alliance pilot together, 2 QF pilots or 2 Alliance pilots but Alliance scheduling and the company will have the final say on this. They simply will not allow Qantas to dictate to them how they schedule pilots to fly their own aircraft.

Last edited by TinFoilhat2; 11th Feb 2021 at 16:06.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 16:56
  #287 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 40 Likes on 15 Posts
As someone alluded to in a previous post, Qantas is giving Alliance tens of millions of dollars of work and they own just under 20%. If you have had business experience at all, you would know that this will give Q a very big say (if they want to) in who gets hired. They won't preside over every Interview but if Alliance say they will hire some Qantas folks and 3 months later they haven't hired any, or much fewer than they agreed to Qantas will want to know why.
Climb150 is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 17:57
  #288 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,878
Likes: 0
Received 245 Likes on 106 Posts
Plus they just advertised for direct entry Capt and Fo to fly the brand new toys
. Nothing brand new about these Ejets. They are well used.
Icarus2001 is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 19:57
  #289 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
. Nothing brand new about these Ejets. They are well used.
So they should have said "..to fly THEIR brand new toys" and everyone happy.
galdian is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2021, 23:00
  #290 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Jungle
Posts: 638
Received 14 Likes on 10 Posts
For Qantas to introduce the Ejet for better economics, and use Qantas pilots, then wouldn't it be better if Qantas bought their own fleet of Ejets? It will be a new type for Qantas, just as it is for Alliance, so there's no real operational advantage in having Alliance introduce the new type. Both will need type rated and experienced Ejet pilots initially to get the ball rolling. I would have thought it'd be easier for Qantas to buy their own Ejets and have the Cobham B717 fleet take care of it. After all, Cobham do have past operational experience with the Ejet and I'm sure some of the B717 crew already have time on type.
smiling monkey is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 00:07
  #291 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 40 Likes on 15 Posts
If Qantas likes the Ejets, much easier to get someone else to buy them and crew them. No risk for old Q, only Alliance. Probably some sort of fee for departure deal.

Why would Qantas buy a new type when someone else will do it and crew it for half the cost?
Climb150 is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 00:55
  #292 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Jungle
Posts: 638
Received 14 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Climb150

Why would Qantas buy a new type when someone else will do it and crew it for half the cost?
QF said they wanted their long haul pilots to crew it, albeit, until international flying picked up again. That arrangement would have been much easier done if kept within the group.
smiling monkey is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 01:00
  #293 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by TinFoilhat2
I have absolutely no problem with QF pilots. I have a problem with people who think a contract airline doing business on their behalf owe them some kind of favour or goodwill, they dont. Its just business not some kind of mob deal struck up in a back alley.

if Alliance choose to help out QF pilots then good for them but its their decision, Qantas does not get a say in it. They can simply put an offer on the table like offering to pay for all the training etc..

As i said earlier Im sure the QF crew are very nice people.

there you go again. Where did anyone say they were owed something. It was brought up that QF pilots had been explicitly told by the acting CP that there would be LWOP opportunities. That was posted here. QF pilots who may be eligible saw this as a green shoot. Then you came in bagging everyone and anyone who’d ever had anything to do with QF and apparently started some kind of movement to ban QF pilots from everything.
I haven’t seen many if any current alliance crew jump in. You’re not that bloke who offered to crew the 350 with ex China Southern crew are you?
goodonyamate is online now  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 01:50
  #294 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Perth
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Probably not of interest to any of the Anti Qaxxers or even the Pro Qaxxers for that matter (ie in the style of Anti and Pro Vaxxers one having strong feelings about QF doing what appears to be the corporate and socially responsible position of looking out for its stood down staff and putting their bums in a seat of another airline's jet - the Emirati gigs come to mind)

This week's ASX results and what they do and are doing at Alliance deserves a read.
longlegs is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 04:55
  #295 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,878
Likes: 0
Received 245 Likes on 106 Posts
Cobham B717 fleet take care of it. After all, Cobham do have past operational experience with the Ejet
I think you are mixing your types and companies there old chap. Cobham owned NJS which was sold to QF. NJS has no Ejet experience but a few pilots were on the Ejet at Cobham regional. So there is no corporate or operational knowledge of Ejet within NJS, as distinct from Cobham.
Icarus2001 is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 06:54
  #296 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 134
Received 16 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Climb150
As someone alluded to in a previous post, Qantas is giving Alliance tens of millions of dollars of work and they own just under 20%. If you have had business experience at all, you would know that this will give Q a very big say (if they want to) in who gets hired. They won't preside over every Interview but if Alliance say they will hire some Qantas folks and 3 months later they haven't hired any, or much fewer than they agreed to Qantas will want to know why.
Im sure they might ask why no QF has been hired. However there won’t be much they can do about it especially if no QF pilots want to move to Darwin or Adelaide.

The other 80 percent of the company have a bigger say on who gets hired and legally the contract will be about the flying, not pilot hiring. There is a simple reason for that, neither Alliance or QF can guarantee that at all times a certain percentage of QF pilots will occupy a certain percentage of e-jet seats or flights.

Hence it is an added bonus if some QF international pilots get hired, not a LEGAL REQUIREMENT as per the regional flying contract deal! as for the tens of millions of dollars in a deal being offered, they are free to take that deal and offer it to somebody else however we both no there really is nobody else that can do it so QF is in a bind and need Alliance more than Alliance need them.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 08:50
  #297 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 134
Received 16 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by goodonyamate
there you go again. Where did anyone say they were owed something. It was brought up that QF pilots had been explicitly told by the acting CP that there would be LWOP opportunities. That was posted here. QF pilots who may be eligible saw this as a green shoot. Then you came in bagging everyone and anyone who’d ever had anything to do with QF and apparently started some kind of movement to ban QF pilots from everything.
I haven’t seen many if any current alliance crew jump in. You’re not that bloke who offered to crew the 350 with ex China Southern crew are you?
No idea what you are talking about with China Southern and crewing an A350. I never heard about that. What’s this ‘There you go again’ nonsense. Nobody said anything bad about QF pilots or denying some deal between Alliance and Qantas to crew E-jets.

The argument was who gets the final say. You seem to think QF has some kind of legal agreement in place and can demand what they want with regards to what pilots fly Alliance aircraft, they don’t. They allowed Alliance to fly regional routes for them, routes they were losing money on by the way with the 737. That’s the deal in place, the rest is just a bonus

Under that agreement, very much an ACMI style agreement, they provide aircraft, crew, Mx and Insurance. They will try to help out QF international crew but Alliance has the final say, not Qantas. Alliance is an independent company with independent management. Qantas get no say in the day to day running of the company or who crew their aircraft.

Im not sure why you find this so hard to understand. It’s nothing to do with liking or disliking QF pilots. Do you think Virgin get any say in who fly Alliance aircraft and on what routes, of course they don’t and they have done work for them.

Its a simple wet lease with all crew being Alliance crew paid by Alliance. VA get no say and neither will Qantas, just a favor done to try help their international pilots. That favor includes QF paying for all their training and absorbing the costs.

Alliance did not get the contract on condition they hired QF staff, they got the contract regardless of whether they took on QF staff. Alliance don’t have enough pilots so this financial agreement benefits them. However type rated will be hired first, I know this for a fact. Secondly if Alliance choose to replace those QF pilots at any stage they have every right to and there is not a thing Qantas can do about it.

They are an independent company and not beholden to Qantas in any way shape or form. This is not an anti QF pilot rant.

TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 09:53
  #298 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Middle East
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
TFH2

At least 1/2 of the new e-jets are going to be painted in the Qantaslink livery. This is definitely happening and is a branding requirement by Qf - Cobham and Network do the same

Cobham and Network crews wear the same uniforms as QF mainline. In the companies eyes they are Qantas pilots also - this is often mentioned in internal communications. I personally have no problem with it.

So as per my earlier question to you is will you stand on principal and tell Alliance you will refuse to wear the above uniform because Qantas should not have a say in your work attire ? Or will you, in effect, become the thing you hate the most in this world - a Qantas pilot.

Read the end of George Orwells 1984 if you don't understand what I am talking about.
Kaboobla is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 10:56
  #299 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 608
Received 67 Likes on 27 Posts
Nobody said anything bad about QF pilots
This sort of thing is purely complimentary, of course:
I realise the QF skygods are better than all of us mere mortals and it will come as a shock as to why Alliance does not beg them to fly their planes
itsnotthatbloodyhard is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2021, 10:58
  #300 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 134
Received 16 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Kaboobla
TFH2

At least 1/2 of the new e-jets are going to be painted in the Qantaslink livery. This is definitely happening and is a branding requirement by Qf - Cobham and Network do the same

Cobham and Network crews wear the same uniforms as QF mainline. In the companies eyes they are Qantas pilots also - this is often mentioned in internal communications. I personally have no problem with it.

So as per my earlier question to you is will you stand on principal and tell Alliance you will refuse to wear the above uniform because Qantas should not have a say in your work attire ? Or will you, in effect, become the thing you hate the most in this world - a Qantas pilot.

Read the end of George Orwells 1984 if you don't understand what I am talking about.
I dont care what colour the planes are, what uniform I wear. I dont hate Qantas pilots. I do dislike some of their pilots attitudes (skygod mentality) but they are not the majority. Refusing to do your job because you wear a different uniform is just stupid.

Ultimately if I am protected by a work agreement, get paid and treated with respect then the rest is just cosmetic as far as I am concerned. When I fly I just want to know the guy sitting next to me is somebody I can tolerate for 4 hours without wanting to slit my own throat and that he is a safe pilot.

As for the rest I don't give 2 hoots as long as it does not affect me and my families income. These companies can run themselves as they see fit.

If I dont like the direction the company is heading in I am free to leave as is everyone else.

At the same time as long as the company sticks to the EBA and does not try to screw the pilot group by getting around said agreement then all is well.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.