How good is Alliance!!!!

[galdian]

Hi Kaboobla

Thanks for the well laid out expalantion, whilst not casting aspertions I point out there are a sh*tload of moving parts to what you've described, if it is along those lines then the grand plan is indeed grand, sadly you can't argue that business isn't business and that's solely from where decisions come for many.

Suppose all hail the puppetmaster AJ in all his glory.

If nothing else still hope the existing Alliance pilots get some benefits/options from any expansion, Alliance always had a reputation for being a pretty fair place to work for what it was - at least that appeared to general vibe - be a shame if they lost some of that due to unfettered string pulling by the puppetmaster.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Originally Posted by Kaboobla

Its so they can keep the majority of the longhaul pilots stood down indefinitely without redundancy provisions applying.

At some point in the next 3-5 years, where mainline pilots are still stood down, but Network, Cobham and Alliance pilots are flying full lines and being paid their full salaries, somebody will challenge the refusal of QF to pay redundancy packages in court. The challenge being that those stood down pilots are actually redundant under the fair work act (they are actually redundant right now TBF)

That court case will fail if the complaining pilot can be proven to be have been 'offered' a position in another 'group company'.

Unfortunately for QF, that’s not how the IR laws work. You can’t offer a job on lower T&Cs and sidestep redundancy provisions, and you certainly can’t make it in another entity.

QF, with every other business using stand down provisions, will be in a precarious position if the workforce isn’t being paid as per their awards once the government restrictions to their trade are lifted. Passenger demand / wrong size aircraft / load factors etc have nothing to do with it.

If QF choose to remove a fleet / destination / entity, it’s a commercial
decision - stand down can’t and won’t apply.

Take emotion out of the argument - mainline / alliance / network / JQ / etc are just business cases - the only thing that will save the employees is in their award.

The QF A380 / 747 pilots will be just fine - they have a strong award signed off during the pandemic - fair work won’t touch it.

Spreading FUD is the best the company can do to make some of them leave on their own accord - LWOP / VR / a job at a group airline may convince some (SOs especially) to voluntarily leave the comfort and safety of their award, thus reducing the cost once stand down is over.

With vaccines around the world doing better than hoped, and the numbers of infected falling fairly rapidly, it won’t be as long as most predict.

[Beer Baron]

Originally Posted by havick

That still doesn’t answer ScepticalOptomist’s question, as he points out Alliance is in no way part of the QF group, they owe no special treatment to QF pilots than any other applicant.

Perhaps when a client comes along and says, “we’d like to contract millions of dollars worth of flying on a multi-year contract covering about a dozen new aircraft but we have a few conditions”, Alliance decides to hear them out.
- We want the aircraft to say QantasLink on the side.
- We want the flight attendants to wear Qantas uniforms
- We want them to have a business class
- We want x, y, z, etc.
- We need you to employ some of our crew as we have hundreds stood down and you will be short.

As you say, Alliance can tell Qantas to shove it as they owe Qantas pilots nothing. But is a multi-million dollar contract worth putting at risk?
The old adage says, ‘The customer is always right’ and in this circumstance the customer is Qantas.

[Zhoottoo]

[QUOTE=Kaboobla;10985147].....The aircraft are owned by Qantas .....Last point again - QF will own these jets....

Guessing some Alliance directors will be doing time in the big house given recent Alliance ASX announcements of the aircraft purchase say otherwise.

[Kaboobla]

If you think Alliance just 'magically' came up with the funding for aircraft leases on this magnitude I have some money in Nigeria I can gift you if you send me your account details.

[Green.Dot]

And to think that Virgin used to have E-Jets, maybe they were a good money maker, or is it only when they are old and cheap to acquire?

Knowing Virgin they probably leased them for 5 times as much as any other operator.

[aviation_enthus]

Originally Posted by Kaboobla

If you think Alliance just 'magically' came up with the funding for aircraft leases on this magnitude I have some money in Nigeria I can gift you if you send me your account details.

Alliance raised $91M last year. Plus an additional $30M. No need to send money to Nigeria, it’s all laid out on their ASX updates.

https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/ap...df02a206a39ff4

Unlike guys like you on Pprune, Alliance are actually required by law to explain what they’re upto.

NO WHERE does it say any of the E190’s Alliance has bought are owned by QF. Alliance bought 30 in total for “wet lease operations”. What QF is paying them to do, is exactly the market Alliance was aiming for. Which is pretty much exactly what Alliance has been doing with the F100’s for QF/VA. Oh I guess QF own them as well??

https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/ap...df02a206a39ff4

Originally Posted by Kaboobla

Qantas are paying for the introduction into service of the E-Jets. Not Alliance. Its a deal like with the 717s. The aircraft are owned by Qantas but operated by the contractor.

So because of this Qantas gets to decide who flys them. Not Alliance and not whingers about fairness on PPRuNe. Its a business decision Qantas has made.

“Whingers about fairness on PPrune”??? What about QF guys assuming they are entitled to fly anything in Australia because they’re stood down? Pot meet kettle.

I was just pointing out the rubbish on this thread. After all it’s supposed to be about the various good things Alliance are doing (and making money), yet it’s been hijacked by you lot assuming QF pilots get to hijack someone else’s job!

If the QF chief pilot said you “may” get to fly them, I’m sure it’ll be on LWOP and after applying like a normal person that’s new to Alliance. Not because QF “own” the 190’s.

[Check_Thrust]

Kaboobla,

You might feel that Qantas own the aircraft but all announcements made by Alliance and Qantas indicate that these are Alliance’s EJets.

Here are some references for you:
AQZ ASX Announcement: Acquisition of Additional 16 Embraer E190 Aircraft
Excerpt:



AQZ ASX: Alliance signs E190 capacity deal with QANTAS
Exerpt:



QANTAS Newsroom: QANTAS GROUP TARGETS DOMESTIC GROWTH WITH ALLIANCE AIRLINES CAPACITY DEAL
Excerpt:




Qantas may choose to buy their own EJets in the future but for now these ones coming into service are Alliance’s.

[galdian]

Whilst suppose no chance of happening be interesting to hear from the horses mouth ie Flight Ops Management at Alliance as to whether they have received any directives from upper management regards pilot recruitment (if required) or being left to their own devices to run their department/recruit as they see best.

[Global Aviator]

Back to how good is Alliance.

Buying 30 E190’s for 90 mil or is it 120 mil? Either or means the asset cost is very low. Just like the F100’s. Smart aircraft acquisition!

No doubt there is a stack of jungle jet parts as well.

[Kaboobla]

I never said that QF pilots feel they are entitled to anything. I have just relayed the correspondence from the QF chief pilot. If people think it’s BS that’s up to them. Given QFs track record with all the other outsourcing and transfer of former mainline flying they could have simply said that the E-Jet deal is happening and go and pound sand.

I think QF mainline pilots have been very reasonable over the years given the massive amount of outsourcing of their own jobs that has occurred. I can’t think of one instance where a QF mainline pilot has been critical or thrown barbs at network / Cobram ect take your pick.

Reference the aircraft ownership issue - check who the leasing companies that own the jets are owned by or nominees for said leasing companies. You would not be surprised who owns the companies and the favourable lease rates involved. There is more then one way of supporting a subsidiary operation then direct cash injections.

[PoppaJo]

Would it not be more logical to go after Tiger and Virgin laid off drivers? More long term commitment.

[Kaboobla]

Yes it would be more logical to take type rated and experience pilots from VIrgin ect if as some point the A380 and B787s are coming back and you are going to lose pilots out of your operation.

But if Alan is going to kill the mainline operation for good then there will be no seats to come back to. So any QF LWOP pilot to Alliance will probably end up staying.

Again if the training costs are covered by QF, Alliance won’t care about crew turnover. Has no impact on costs

[aviation_enthus]

Originally Posted by Kaboobla

Reference the aircraft ownership issue - check who the leasing companies that own the jets are owned by or nominees for said leasing companies. You would not be surprised who owns the companies and the favourable lease rates involved. There is more then one way of supporting a subsidiary operation then direct cash injections.

Unless you have a reference or are able to show any links, I’ll stick with the official ASX announcements from Alliance.

Just to add, it was clear that QF owned the 717’s and then contracted Cobham to provide crews. This does not seem to be the same arrangement.

Note the use of the word “purchase” and “funded through capital raising and/or debt”

(My highlighting)

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I can’t think of one instance where a QF mainline pilot has been critical or thrown barbs at network / Cobram ect take your pick.

You must be new here.

[MaxHelixAngle]

The amount of misinformation here is astounding.

BeerBaron has knocked it on the head and is 100% correct.

As for all those whinging about QF pilots being told there will be LWOP opportunities - why shouldn’t they get first look in? Qantas is the customer here, and it is on the back of Qantas group demand that these opportunities have arisen. Qantas, have, and rightly so, asked that their stood down employees are given the opportunity to be considered. Alliance has agreed.

As for Stand down and IR law - barking up the wrong tree. In fact forest. LWOP opportunities will have no bearing on any future litigation - except perhaps in the court of public opinion.

[ruprecht]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

You must be new here.

Surely a “skygod” comment can’t be too far away.

[galdian]

Will that be before or after the "influx of QF pilots will pollute the Alliance culture" comment?

[TinFoilhat2]

Originally Posted by Kaboobla

Qantas are paying for the introduction into service of the E-Jets. Not Alliance. Its a deal like with the 717s. The aircraft are owned by Qantas but operated by the contractor.

So because of this Qantas gets to decide who flys them. Not Alliance and not whingers about fairness on PPrune. Its a business decision Qantas has made.

The fact that the E-Jet seats will be available for Qantas mainline pilots, has been confirmed in an email by the current Qantas chief pilot.

The email says the endorsement costs will be covered by Alliance, but in reality QF will pay Alliance for this as well.

So the question is, why would QF do this ? Its not from the goodness of their heart. Its so they can keep the majority of the longhaul pilots stood down indefinitely without redundancy provisions applying.

At some point in the next 3-5 years, where mainline pilots are still stood down, but Network, Cobham and Alliance pilots are flying full lines and being paid their full salaries, somebody will challenge the refusal of QF to pay redundancy packages in court. The challenge being that those stood down pilots are actually redundant under the fair work act (they are actually redundant right now TBF)

That court case will fail if the complaining pilot can be proven to be have been 'offered' a position in another 'group company'.

Now my bet is the location of the E-Jet slots will be in places that are not popular with existing pilots who are settled with their families - say Darwin or Cairns - so the majority will not be taken up.

Last point again - QF will own these jets and will decide who flys them. In the same way they decided that mainline pilots could not fly for JQ or Network. This time they have decided otherwise.

QF do not own the E-Jets, they are all owned by Alliance and Alliance will dictate who flies them. There is simply a wet lease agreement between Alliance and QF. I can promise you now, no long haul QF pilot will get a seat over another qualified (especially type rated) pilot knowing their intention is to return to Qantas.

It is no different to the setup in the States where companies like Republic and SkyWest fly for the mainline carriers. The regionals crew their own planes, mainline pays fuel but salaries are lower due to scope of aircraft size.

Alliance will do what benefits them, not Qantas.

[cynphil]

TinFoilhat2...quote....
I can promise you now, no long haul QF pilot will get a seat over another qualified (especially type rated) pilot knowing their intention is to return to Qantas.

.Making a promise that you have no ability to make.....unless you’re speaking for Alliance management....which you are not!!