Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Time for a reality Check

Old 16th May 2020, 23:52
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Finally some balanced debate.
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Old 17th May 2020, 00:28
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PAXboy View Post
I think you may have forgotten that all the 'routine' deaths are that - routine. People have adjusted to Flu deaths and Road deaths and Cancer deaths and Smoking deaths - what they are NOT used to is a new virus that can have deadly consequences, has many (as yet) unkknown long term damages to the body and, given the uncertainty, when people are dying of it - it is usally not possible for the family to be with the person - or they are swathed in plastic.

Humans are inbuilt to be wary of new threats and, until this one is understood, will remain so. Not least as the virus can be passed on asymptomatically with neither party realising the risk. Please do volunteer to find out how that works.

Whilst it is true that most people who are dying are the elderly who may have had 1~5 years of life left, you have to consider how it would be for your parents, uncles, aunts etc. to be one of those? For people of other ages, if they have asthma, or are diabetic, or undergoing cancer treatment in their 30s or 40s - if they catch the virus then their chances of living are slim. There are already documents on people of middle age who have been ill for six weeks and just crawling back from it - how will their long term health play out? A few children have contracted a specific and highly unusual further illness. Would you like your family to experiment with that?

If I have been blunt it is because I work with the funeral trade in the UK so I do understand what I am talking about as I have lost count of the Covid19 deaths I have dealt with in the last six weeks.
How many suicides of young fit healthy people which have been brought about by the lockdowns have you also dealt with?

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...f07e972334394c



https://www.legit.ng/1321651-covid-1...-lockdown.html



https://thewomenjournal.com/2020/04/...ike-300-years/



https://www.deccanherald.com/nationa...wn-823182.html



https://nypost.com/2020/04/12/teen-c...irus-lockdown/

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Old 17th May 2020, 00:54
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Mental health conditions in this time are a problem, but the solutions are more funding for mental healthcare, better access to social services, a stronger safety net to alleviate any issues caused by economic worries and good support for job creation once it is all over.

The solution is most definitely not to abandon pandemic prevention measures.
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Old 17th May 2020, 01:49
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Hi West Coast
As I already mentioned I got retrenched directly because of the the response to Covid( well mostly?) after 30 plus years flying I’m dealing with the fact I will probably not fly again as a pilot.
I support pretty much the lock down as it has played out, I do believe we need to start the process as we are of unlocking but on the stats what Aus has done as a country has been one of the better responses and outcomes.....even from my new position on the bottom of the pyramid.


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Old 17th May 2020, 02:11
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
but the solutions are more funding for mental healthcare
And the money for that comes from???? Ah yes, people working... Which a lot aren't right now!
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Old 17th May 2020, 02:31
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
And the money for that comes from???? Ah yes, people working... Which a lot aren't right now!
If everything goes to plan, life should pretty much be back to normal in July, less international travel and crowds at the footy.

The draconian measures taken early by the government could turn out to be the best economic decision as it gives us the fastest turn around to normal life. NZ today will hopefully be where we are in July.
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Old 17th May 2020, 03:18
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Some lively "discussion". A couple of thoughts. People, we, are stupid. Smoking increases the risk and causes cancer but is the world smoking (possible pun) free. And I will not go on about drugs, lifestyle, suicides etc especially in first world countries. The general population does need looking after as most have not matured past their 14 yo age even at 60.

[QUOTE=RAD_ALT_ALIVE;10784084]I absolutely agree with OP.

In April alone, 75 Australians lost their lives on the roads of this nation. Should we then ban cars and driving?


You might want to ask yourself why. Is it just bad luck and nothing to do with speed, alcohol, drugs, or immature hormones? If people obeyed the road rules do you think that might have an impact on the death toll on the roads? (Yes I have speed and at times not been completely sober so I have experience in stupidity) If we could trust people to do the correct thing we probably would not need a lockdown. Why because people would do it themselves.

The second point. The economy. We already have had an adjustment, the GFC, to the world economy which can be attributed to extensive debt. From individual to Government debt we are over extended. It is no surprise that what has happened has caused such an impact on the economy.

For those of you that have been retrenched, from long term careers to just starting, you have my heartfelt sympathy. The aviation industry is in a state of flux. Even though there are comments on seats being filled for flights you have to question the numbers that can do this, still or will have employment, to ones that shouldn't do this but put it on card with no employment. There may well be an upswing air travel in the immediate future when restrictions are lifted but it would be hard to argue, especially with all the comments on the economies being stuffed, that the numbers will go back to what they were prior to lockdown.

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Old 17th May 2020, 03:20
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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here we go ...

Emirates Will Resume Flights to Nine Cities on May 21


https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/e...on-may-21.html

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Old 17th May 2020, 03:22
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
And the money for that comes from???? Ah yes, people working... Which a lot aren't right now!
If society was just reopened back to normal with a virus spreading through like wildfire I don't think the economy would be at full strength. People generally don't feel like spending whilst there were scenes of hospitals being overwhelmed and mass graves being dug.

Even before states and countries were closing their borders people stopped travelling, flights emptied out. People don't want to participate in the economy whilst the threat of a pandemic is looming, and if a re-opening is attempted without the threat being properly contained then people will refuse to spend and the economy will tank anyway.

The way I see it opening back up without caution will cause a loss of life and money for a longer time, opening back up gradually and with caution will save life, cause some short term economic pain but be cheaper in the long run than throwing caution to the wind.

Maybe the containment measures and solutions should have been made years ago (when scientists first started warning of the dangers of a large scale pandemic).
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Old 17th May 2020, 03:25
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Good news, Emirates are back flying....It’s all back to normal.

Good thing fuel is cheap
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Old 17th May 2020, 03:51
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Does anyone else think of this as a ‘closing the gate after the horse has bolted’ crisis. By the time the big problem areas like Italy, New York and London locked down there was no point in locking down. The latest gen going around was that the original accidental release of covid in wuhan occurred in October 19. By the time we were any the wiser the horse had bolted in China..by the time the Chinese gave us the real story the horse had bolted in Italy..by the time CNN and Trump finished their juvenile squabbling and decided that they had a real problem the horse had bolted in NewYork ..and by the time London decided that the Swedish model wouldn’t work in a crowded super city..their horse had got out too. All these places listed had a toll significantly greater than if they’d acted earlier and they all suffered results that seem to be worse than other places per capita that didn’t lockdown at all.

My feelings are (personal opinion only)..that lockdowns late are pointless and help nothing.
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Old 17th May 2020, 03:57
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Depends on where you are Matty. I think Aus and Nz went hard early and it reduced the rate so far. Other countries went late and lost. What we all have in common is the damage to the economies, I think we all agree on that!

I will put the reply up here Matty, but I share your thoughts too. We are a far more spread out society and it started at the end of our summer. I’m at a loss to understand how we don’t have a far higher rate of death. Did we get it right, were we just lucky or a combination of both? And what is next?

Last edited by ozbiggles; 17th May 2020 at 04:12.
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Old 17th May 2020, 04:01
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah closing early works..I don’t think NZ and Aus closed super quickly..there just seems to be some benefit to being spaced out suburban cultures with mild late summer weather..I have a funny feeling in the depths of the usual winter flu season we may face our reckoning too
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Old 17th May 2020, 04:04
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
with a virus spreading through like wildfire
Except in many countries - notably Europe and the US - the virus has ALREADY ripped through like a wildfire. A few of my family have had it in the UK (confirmed by testing); one of my sons reported feeling feverish and had painful breathing for a couple of days back in mid February. If that was indeed COVID 19, and it's as infectious as 'the experts' say it is, then probably a darn good percentage of the British population has had it and recovered... I agree with mattyj above that the lockdowns (at least in Europe and the US) were late, pointless and have done arguably more damage in the long run than have really helped.

It seems to me that a lot of governance now is to assuage social media!! Sadly...
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Old 17th May 2020, 04:11
  #75 (permalink)  
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The countries that experienced, or were close to, the Sars and Mers outbreaks reacted faster as it was within 20 years. Most of the 'western world' did not experience other pandemics (inc Swine Flu and so on) as badly and so they ignored the warnings. Since the (incorrectly named) Spanish Flu is out of living memory, humans have forgotten. Humans tend not to learn from history.

Yes, the UK locked down late but the reason they did so was the warning that, to let the virus continue unchallenged would result in more than 400,000 deaths, possibly as many as 500,000. As it is, we have just passed the 34,000 mark. Worldwide? Over 313,000. Generally speaking, human society does not like those sorts of numbers ...

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Old 17th May 2020, 04:36
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mattyj View Post
Yeah closing early works..I don’t think NZ and Aus closed super quickly..there just seems to be some benefit to being spaced out suburban cultures with mild late summer weather..I have a funny feeling in the depths of the usual winter flu season we may face our reckoning too
It’s this reason why going early to get in top of it before winter sets in has been the goal.

Try and get the active case numbers way down as low as possible prior to the onset of winter, so that when it does flare up it becomes easier to manage than if things are still wildly out of control.

Certainly the weather in NZ has helped a lot, has been more mild than usual, which has meant a lot of people haven’t been trapped inside all the time (although we’ve been trapped, the weather has allowed us our daily walks/exercise for longer than in the past).

The flutracker website shows the data in NZ that the flu/cold is down nearly 95% lower than normal for this time of year.
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Old 17th May 2020, 04:38
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mattyj View Post
Yeah closing early works..I don’t think NZ and Aus closed super quickly..there just seems to be some benefit to being spaced out suburban cultures with mild late summer weather..I have a funny feeling in the depths of the usual winter flu season we may face our reckoning too
I agree. I think we in NZ closed about a week to 10 days late.

Last edited by Chris2303; 17th May 2020 at 20:30.
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Old 17th May 2020, 04:40
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Italy has announced that as of monday the majority of businesses will be allowed to open, heard two different things, one is its bars, restaraunts and hotels only, other is a all business. As of June 3rd all travel restriction internally and internationally well be cancelled. Guess italy is going to be the crash test dummy of the world

Originally Posted by Chris2303 View Post
I agree. I think we in NZ closed about a week to days late.
Yeah same of aus, about a week late and add in the cruise ship screw up, we would be sitting pretty if not for that
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Old 17th May 2020, 04:48
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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It's a stupid paradox isn't it. Governments are proactive, go into lockdown to substantially reduce the spread of the virus. When they're successful and substantially reduce infections and deaths idiots will point at the numbers and complain and say that it's all overblown and that it was never a real threat. This $#** really does my head in.



Originally Posted by fokker1000 View Post
Rather than getting so over excited about these numbers, look at how many people sadly die from traffic accidents, industrial accidents, terminal disease, old age, violent crime etc etc etc. everyday.
...all of which were substantially reduced for the period of tilhe lockdown....

Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
650000 people die of flu and 800000 people die of malaria every year. Not to mention a few tens of millions due to poverty.
And that's without a lockdown......with lockdown the number of people with flu like illnesses "drops to almost zero". This isn't rocket science. Even if you ignore all the lives saved from covid19 by the lockdown, there's substantial lives saved from people who would have otherwise died from seasonal flu.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/healt...uring-lockdown

Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
we know who the vulnerable are. It ain’t the working aged people!
Yes, let's just let lots of old people die!

Originally Posted by ozbiggles View Post
The only thing that scares me is some of you might be in a cockpit with me wearing your tin foil.
​​​​​​​Well said.

Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE View Post
I started off thinking this was ‘just a flu’ too. But I put my bias to the side, sought the facts (from reputable sources) and realised how wrong I was.
Likewise. Can't believe I stupid I was to be embarking on travels to the other side of the planet in early March.
​​​​​​​
Unfortunately in the modern culture wars, admitting you're wrong is seen as weakness and you should instead refuse to change your mind contrary to all evidence that your eyes and ears present you.

Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I did some research on Fauci, he could be considered the world’s leading expert on infectious disease response for 40 years. He surely knows 100x more about pandemics than the combined knowledge of every single poster here.
Right but he dared to contradict Saint Donnie and make him look stupid, so his vast experience and deep knowledge of virology and epidemiology is therefore worth absolutely nothing because he must be a deep state plant....​​​​​​​

Originally Posted by homonculus View Post

1 The WHO should have acted to close China's borders in January. There is significant concern that there is poor leadership behoven to the Chinese
You're right but China is never going to be told what to do.

Originally Posted by homonculus View Post
2 Many other countries including the UK should have closed their borders to humans in February. Australia and New Zealand demonstrate that can significantly reduce deaths.
Yes. What really does my head in is that the UK is only just beginning to quarantine passengers arriving from abroad. They should have been doing that back in March! Back in February the emergency evacuation flights from Wuhan had all passengers quarantined to The Wirrel for two weeks, but anyone who left Wuhan/Hubei commercial and flew back to the UK via HKG, SIN, PVG, NRT or ICN etc wasn't even checked on arrival. And this in a country where the government likes to project an image of being strong when it comes to border control. ​​​​​​​


If you look into it a bit more, you will see that the US Govenrment took steps in January to obtain 100's of Millions more syringes.
I would love to see a source for this claim. Based on the US being late with absolutely everything when it comes to dealing with this pandemic, I'm finding it extremely hard to believe that they ordered "100s of millions" of syringes for a hypothetical vaccine. Would love to be proven wrong though.

​​​​​​​
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Old 17th May 2020, 05:59
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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As at 17/5, QF website is selling 57 flights (QF/JQ combined) between SYD & MEL (one-way).
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