Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

New Brisbane SIDS/STARs

Old 14th May 2020, 02:54
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New Brisbane SIDS/STARs

Departure and Approach Procedures

The procedures for the new runway at Brisbane have been published on the ASA website, not that many of us will be flying them for some time. The old Victor arrivals have been changed and require vectors from a certain point rather than taking you directly to the runway.

But why do we always need to reinvent the wheel in Australia? I notice that there will be a new frequency between Approach and Tower, called ‘FINAL’. Why not call it Director like in Sydney? It’s like Class D airfields in Aus where each airfield has its own different local nuances rather than just using a standard.

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Old 14th May 2020, 03:03
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Also, and a little sadder.

Farewell DRAIN/PLUGG/SINNK/BOATS/LEAKY.

End of an era
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Old 14th May 2020, 03:19
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What's the reason for radar vectors?? How many more incidents need to happen with people going through the runway/lining up with the wrong runway/lining up with the wrong airport/lining up with the taxiiway/getting cut in and being to high going around/infringing on the parallel runway/strong tailwinds not being accounted for and getting blown through the centreline before they actually make change? Radar vectoring is archaic given everyone has a GPS and every jet can build a path to the threshold. There should be visual stars to a 5 mile final using onboard guidance.

There will also be 3 ground frequencies?

Last edited by neville_nobody; 14th May 2020 at 03:39.
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Old 14th May 2020, 05:14
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wishiwasupthere - I think it is called FINAL because it does not fulfil the function of a DIRECTOR, the aircraft are already intercepting final approach they do not require "directing". It seems to be the equivalent of the Precision Runway Monitor (PRM) in Sydney, which listens on the Tower frequency and will break in and provide go-around instructions if required.
In Sydney the positions are staffed by controllers on overtime, so it can only be used when ATC will take the extra duty. This is overcome in VMC by the so-called Independent Visual Approaches, which require pilot separation.
Approach path monitoring is required on all parallel runway operations, in BNE they have chosen to do it differently so that it is available all the time without having to call ATCs out or impose visual separation requirements. Hence they are called Independent Parallel Approaches with no requirement to include visual or switch on a separate surveillance system (PRM), as in Sydney. A PRM system is not required in BNE due to the runways being 2000 metres apart.
My question would be, why are the aircraft not transferred to the Tower frequency from Approach, with FINAL just listening-in as in Sydney.
This would seem to introduce a late change to the Tower frequency where important information might need to be passed, such as RVR in low visibility, or other information.
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Old 14th May 2020, 05:22
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Originally Posted by j3pipercub View Post
Also, and a little sadder.

Farewell DRAIN/PLUGG/SINNK/BOATS/LEAKY.

End of an era
Things haven’t been the same since we lost STAKE/BEERN/CHIPS.
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Old 14th May 2020, 06:17
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Thanks Mr Approach, that makes sense. I still think it’s just a case of Australian unnecessary over complication.
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Old 14th May 2020, 06:27
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Good to see that the finally fixed the issue of a suitable Entry Point for flights from Nth America. The new waypoint TEBOT will result in significantly less track mile than SAVER.
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Old 14th May 2020, 11:01
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Originally Posted by wishiwasupthere View Post
The old Victor arrivals have been changed and require vectors from a certain point rather than taking you directly to the runway.
That's how they do it in the USA. Sydney is the same? Always a mystery when ATC will turn you to join final, sometimes requiring a dive if they turn you early, or an extended downwind if they turn you late.
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Old 14th May 2020, 20:30
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It’ll just take time to work out the code as we’ve all done with Sydney.

’You have 24 miles to run’ = i‘m going to cut you in so get your ass down

‘You have 26 miles to run’ = Wave to the good people of Newcastle or Wollongong as I turn you base
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Old 15th May 2020, 01:23
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Originally Posted by NGsim View Post
It’ll just take time to work out the code as we’ve all done with Sydney.

’You have 24 miles to run’ = i‘m going to cut you in so get your ass down

‘You have 26 miles to run’ = Wave to the good people of Newcastle or Wollongong as I turn you base
Tough audience, the difference between 24 and 26 miles is about 20 seconds, but yes, I do take your point.
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Old 15th May 2020, 01:41
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Originally Posted by Going Boeing View Post
Good to see that the finally fixed the issue of a suitable Entry Point for flights from Nth America. The new waypoint TEBOT will result in significantly less track mile than SAVER.
Not quite. For the STAR component at least, depending on runway in use. Let’s look at the current runway.

For 01R:
SAVER-GLENN = 58.4nm
TEBOT-GLENN = 70.5nm

19L:
SAVER-threshold = 61nm
TEBOT-threshold = 43.5nm


Now I’m not sure on what waypoint normally precedes your STAR entry (I don’t do N.Am flights), but let’s take a guess of HARVS. Unfortunately I don’t have a good chart with the new waypoints on them, but from what I can gather:
HARVS-SAVER = 152nm
HARVS-TEBOT = 146nm (this distance is unconfirmed and may be wrong; possibly overstated by less than 10nm)

so what does that give us?
01R:
old way via SAVER 210.4nm
new way via TEBOT 216.5nm

19L
old way via SAVER 213nm
new way via TEBOT 189.5nm

so may be a case of win some, lose some.


also unfortunately, no visual arrival from TEBOT that I can find.


and 3 ground frequencies? Greaaaaat.


and further, did anyone notice ASA stuffed up the new runway designator in the efficiency procedures for preferred rapid exits?

Last edited by Car RAMROD; 15th May 2020 at 02:14.
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Old 15th May 2020, 02:32
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CR, due to strong westerly jet streams that are frequently over Southern Qld, the routes generally flown are further North than the Great Circle track coming in via Flaty, or waypoints further NW. Tracking via SAVER involves significant extra track miles due to the dog leg that’s created. The position of Saver is more suitable for flights from NZ.

TEBOT appears to be much better positioned for flights from Nth America.
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Old 16th May 2020, 04:24
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My understanding is that RWY allocation is to be strictly Destination/Origin specific due the EIS and NAP as required by the Airport Owner (BAC) unless 'Operationally Required'. (Happy to be corrected).

So it is possible one of the RWY may be idle whilst aircraft hold inbound or queue for departure for the other.

I am told FINALS will also be able to break you off your approach when you are on the TWR frequency (Frequency over-ride) if you transgress.

With traffic levels as they are, perhaps it will be some time before Independent Approaches are even bothered with, as they require the staffing of the FINALS position?

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Old 16th May 2020, 23:38
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Originally Posted by NGsim View Post
It’ll just take time to work out the code as we’ve all done with Sydney.

’You have 24 miles to run’ = i‘m going to cut you in so get your ass down

‘You have 26 miles to run’ = Wave to the good people of Newcastle or Wollongong as I turn you base
I thought they just put a random number in the 20’s up for the day, and told everyone that number regardless of actual track miles?😂😂
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Old 25th May 2020, 04:13
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Looks like SER, in another life I did some IFR training in it a few decades back. Before my time it was once the demo aircraft in Aus for Bendix. Note my memory isn’t always perfect and how did it come to steal the new runway thunder
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Old 25th May 2020, 06:36
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...and the Channel 9 news called it a turboprop. Typical, they also seem to have a primary school kid on work experience writing the titles in the runner at the bottom of the screen.
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Old 25th May 2020, 06:43
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The BAC press release is just as bad:

https://newsroom.bne.com.au/touch-an...es-new-runway/

It’s a lighting/PAPI check btw.



Last edited by avnut; 25th May 2020 at 06:47. Reason: AC got in first
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Old 28th May 2020, 05:05
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Originally Posted by etrust View Post
Importantly, once the new runway is operational, aircraft will be directed to depart over the bay at night (10pm-6am) when the weather conditions are suitable. There will also be there will be no overnight flights using the new runway arriving or departing over the city. This will greatly reduce the noise impact to residents.
Actually, there won't be any particular change to noise impact for residents at all. Overnight, aircraft have always landed from over water to RWY19L and departed over water from RWY01R, when weather conditions allowed (i.e. tailwind below 5kts) by using 'Reciprocal runway operations'. The only change is that 'SODPROPs' will mean aircraft land on RWY19R and depart from RWY01R. So, they will still be arriving/departing over water, same as they are now and have been for years. They'll just be using two pieces of bitumen instead of one.
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