Qantas puts Project Sunrise on hold
I think the option also needs to be to allow people from overseas the ability to come to Australia, but still have to self quarantine. Quite a few friends of mine have relatives in the UK...relatives who would be desperate to come and see new members of their family, etc.
Also to keep things on an aviation theme, the flying schools around Australia who have cadet contracts would have the ability to bring these students in, have them self quarantine for 2 weeks (whilst having initial theory done remotely) and then kick off flying from there. It seems flight training is one of the only parts of the industry that is continuing at the moment - but as cadet courses finish up, they too will start having significant shut downs in the next few months. This arguably could be the case for all overseas University students (a $12b industry). Admittedly the political appetite for this probably isn’t where it needs to be yet, but I hope it happens sooner rather than later.
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You can only be stood down due to an event out of the airlines control (or any company). It can’t be just because they don’t want to stand people up. How you prove it, don’t know, but they can’t just do it forever.
removing the 747 and the A380 from the fleet, is well and truly an event within the airlines control. My 2c
removing the 747 and the A380 from the fleet, is well and truly an event within the airlines control. My 2c
Once the airline has restructured with Y number of aircraft requiring X number of crew who are all back working, then excess crew would go through a redundancy process. What’s the point in negotiating a redundancy package as part of your terms and conditions if every time a business reforms it can simply indefinitely stand down employees until they eventually resign/retire?
I can see this one being decided in the courts.
They will just say they will return people as the demand dictates, that will mean that International Fleets could be stood down for 12-18 months. No way would a court say to Qantas, you could be making profit there so either return them to work or make people redundant. Qantas won’t make ANY pilots redundant either voluntarily or otherwise whilst they can have people stood down. Why would they, time gives them options.
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They will just say they will return people as the demand dictates, that will mean that International Fleets could be stood down for 12-18 months. No way would a court say to Qantas, you could be making profit there so either return them to work or make people redundant. Qantas won’t make ANY pilots redundant either voluntarily or otherwise whilst they can have people stood down. Why would they, time gives them options.
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Alan - Morning Board. We’ve got the outgoing cash flow down to $40 mil a week and the company is looking viable till the end of ‘21, in what’s obviously an economic situation the world has never seen. We’re well positioned to make the most of the recovery when it comes.
Board - Great work Alan, pull this off and you’re a corporate legend.
Alan - Just one thing, we’ve obviously got too many pilots and have to start a multi multi multi million dollar CR and RIN on 74 and 380.
Board - RIN? What’s this RIN?
Alan - Oh it’s where we retrain the senior pilots to fly the planes that the junior pilots already fly, that aren’t flying much anyway. Then make the junior pilots redundant and pay everyone ENORMOUS amounts of money while we accomplish the whole exercise.
Board - Come again?
Board - Great work Alan, pull this off and you’re a corporate legend.
Alan - Just one thing, we’ve obviously got too many pilots and have to start a multi multi multi million dollar CR and RIN on 74 and 380.
Board - RIN? What’s this RIN?
Alan - Oh it’s where we retrain the senior pilots to fly the planes that the junior pilots already fly, that aren’t flying much anyway. Then make the junior pilots redundant and pay everyone ENORMOUS amounts of money while we accomplish the whole exercise.
Board - Come again?
They will just say they will return people as the demand dictates, that will mean that International Fleets could be stood down for 12-18 months. No way would a court say to Qantas, you could be making profit there so either return them to work or make people redundant. Qantas won’t make ANY pilots redundant either voluntarily or otherwise whilst they can have people stood down. Why would they, time gives them options.
More than happy to be proved wrong, but I can’t see Alan letting a good crisis go to waste.
Accrual of extra Annual and Long Service leave in a stand down is far less than a minimum redundancy payout, even if the stand down goes on for years. Plus the point is to save cash now. That extra leave accrued can be paid out to pilots in 5, 10, 15 years time.
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from someone above "that will mean that International Fleets could be stood down for 12-18 months "
That's saying international flying returns at the same time line for best case vaccine wouldn't you just double the above numbers
The international flying won't even commence until 12 months according to ScoMo , nothing this year
Then cherry pick a few countries you can work with & see what happens , 1 country take it slow , then maybe in a few months another 2
It would be great to go OS we would all like that ; if we are back to 20% by the end of 2021 I would be happy
That's saying international flying returns at the same time line for best case vaccine wouldn't you just double the above numbers
The international flying won't even commence until 12 months according to ScoMo , nothing this year
Then cherry pick a few countries you can work with & see what happens , 1 country take it slow , then maybe in a few months another 2
It would be great to go OS we would all like that ; if we are back to 20% by the end of 2021 I would be happy
20% of what? 2019 Seat Capacity? Revenue?
787s will kick off with London and LA, followed by the usual Asian suspects. A few times a week to begin then more. Similar to route establishment. Honestly, 20% of 2019 international capacity in 12 months might be quite close. However, we are not defined by the creation of the vaccine. Virus recovery drugs are just as important and are easier to develop than vaccines.
There will come a point where the world has had enough. Hospitals will be better equipped and prepared. Better treatment will be known. The world will go on and so will air travel regardless. In short, I think services will have ramped up certainly within 18 months and QF will be back servicing most destinations again by then. No doubt it will be different. Demand will be reduced. A380s may only go to LAX and LHR, so the refurbished 6 might be it. (But I doubt it) Chicago...nup. 747s gone. But Trans Tasman and domestic leisure demand will explode.
Whether a vaccine is available will ultimately be irrelevant. Who’s to say a new variant doesn’t roll around in 12 months.
Have a look at China’s domestic airline recovery. Things are never as good as they seem, they’re also not as bad as you think. JMHO
787s will kick off with London and LA, followed by the usual Asian suspects. A few times a week to begin then more. Similar to route establishment. Honestly, 20% of 2019 international capacity in 12 months might be quite close. However, we are not defined by the creation of the vaccine. Virus recovery drugs are just as important and are easier to develop than vaccines.
There will come a point where the world has had enough. Hospitals will be better equipped and prepared. Better treatment will be known. The world will go on and so will air travel regardless. In short, I think services will have ramped up certainly within 18 months and QF will be back servicing most destinations again by then. No doubt it will be different. Demand will be reduced. A380s may only go to LAX and LHR, so the refurbished 6 might be it. (But I doubt it) Chicago...nup. 747s gone. But Trans Tasman and domestic leisure demand will explode.
Whether a vaccine is available will ultimately be irrelevant. Who’s to say a new variant doesn’t roll around in 12 months.
Have a look at China’s domestic airline recovery. Things are never as good as they seem, they’re also not as bad as you think. JMHO
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20% of what? 2019 Seat Capacity? Revenue?
787s will kick off with London and LA, followed by the usual Asian suspects. A few times a week to begin then more. Similar to route establishment. Honestly, 20% of 2019 international capacity in 12 months might be quite close. However, we are not defined by the creation of the vaccine. Virus recovery drugs are just as important and are easier to develop than vaccines.
There will come a point where the world has had enough. Hospitals will be better equipped and prepared. Better treatment will be known. The world will go on and so will air travel regardless. In short, I think services will have ramped up certainly within 18 months and QF will be back servicing most destinations again by then. No doubt it will be different. Demand will be reduced. A380s may only go to LAX and LHR, so the refurbished 6 might be it. (But I doubt it) Chicago...nup. 747s gone. But Trans Tasman and domestic leisure demand will explode.
Whether a vaccine is available will ultimately be irrelevant. Who’s to say a new variant doesn’t roll around in 12 months.
Have a look at China’s domestic airline recovery. Things are never as good as they seem, they’re also not as bad as you think. JMHO
787s will kick off with London and LA, followed by the usual Asian suspects. A few times a week to begin then more. Similar to route establishment. Honestly, 20% of 2019 international capacity in 12 months might be quite close. However, we are not defined by the creation of the vaccine. Virus recovery drugs are just as important and are easier to develop than vaccines.
There will come a point where the world has had enough. Hospitals will be better equipped and prepared. Better treatment will be known. The world will go on and so will air travel regardless. In short, I think services will have ramped up certainly within 18 months and QF will be back servicing most destinations again by then. No doubt it will be different. Demand will be reduced. A380s may only go to LAX and LHR, so the refurbished 6 might be it. (But I doubt it) Chicago...nup. 747s gone. But Trans Tasman and domestic leisure demand will explode.
Whether a vaccine is available will ultimately be irrelevant. Who’s to say a new variant doesn’t roll around in 12 months.
Have a look at China’s domestic airline recovery. Things are never as good as they seem, they’re also not as bad as you think. JMHO
Once a decision is made regarding the 747 then by rights the RIN process should commence. That decision is likely to be put off as long as possible- perhaps October or November- given they don't actually want to start that process and there is already likely to be a surplus of crew on the A380 as it is.
Once a decision is made regarding the 747 then by rights the RIN process should commence. That decision is likely to be put off as long as possible- perhaps October or November- given they don't actually want to start that process and there is already likely to be a surplus of crew on the A380 as it is.
Previously reductions in numbers have also been associated with VR and ability for LWOP to fly at alternative carriers, which have helped avoid the "downwards cascading effect". Lack of cash flow and lack of carriers flying worldwide prevent those two scenarios existing.
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Qantas sure seem to be going to a lot of effort to get everyone new jobs, their mates in the media showing how much fun people are having doing whatever.
A significant number, especially Campus critters, won’t come back.
Departures ≠ bums on seats. Plenty of empty planes flying between Australia and China right now.
A significant number, especially Campus critters, won’t come back.
Departures ≠ bums on seats. Plenty of empty planes flying between Australia and China right now.
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I don't think a RIN was ever designed for such a large scale reduction in numbers of crew and aircraft when there are no current alternatives to replace them. A scenario where a downward cascading training of the more senior crew displacing into the next most junior role, with that pilot then displacing down and so on that could technically involve every long haul pilot could be a possible outcome. It would be prohibitively expensive and there would be almost no ability to conduct the training anyway when there is very little flying going on.
Previously reductions in numbers have also been associated with VR and ability for LWOP to fly at alternative carriers, which have helped avoid the "downwards cascading effect". Lack of cash flow and lack of carriers flying worldwide prevent those two scenarios existing.
Previously reductions in numbers have also been associated with VR and ability for LWOP to fly at alternative carriers, which have helped avoid the "downwards cascading effect". Lack of cash flow and lack of carriers flying worldwide prevent those two scenarios existing.
The cost with a RIN and training alone would be unreal. Qantas will go with the cheapest option. Everyone will remain stood down and rotated for flying on seniority. Over time attrition and a recovery of the flying will see everyone back to some normality. I think this will take a good 2-3 years for international.
A lot of pilots wont like that, but tough. Everyone is going to take a hit.
It's for sure an interesting scenario.
The cost with a RIN and training alone would be unreal. Qantas will go with the cheapest option. Everyone will remain stood down and rotated for flying on seniority. Over time attrition and a recovery of the flying will see everyone back to some normality. I think this will take a good 2-3 years for international.
A lot of pilots wont like that, but tough. Everyone is going to take a hit.
The cost with a RIN and training alone would be unreal. Qantas will go with the cheapest option. Everyone will remain stood down and rotated for flying on seniority. Over time attrition and a recovery of the flying will see everyone back to some normality. I think this will take a good 2-3 years for international.
A lot of pilots wont like that, but tough. Everyone is going to take a hit.
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Are you suggesting that International numbers will be the same in two years ? , say April 2022
Not even starting international until 2021 , allow that to slip a couple of months , so from nothing to everything in 14 months
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade & we all want to see this come back asap
But two years means everything goes on rails , vaccine developed in best case time frame , then manufactured and given to 7 B people
, no second wave or hiccup of any kind & also assuming that people won't be scared to travel internationally & there will be the same demand from business & capacity to pay
I reckon getting back to half pre-covid after three years would be a great result
Not even starting international until 2021 , allow that to slip a couple of months , so from nothing to everything in 14 months
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade & we all want to see this come back asap
But two years means everything goes on rails , vaccine developed in best case time frame , then manufactured and given to 7 B people
, no second wave or hiccup of any kind & also assuming that people won't be scared to travel internationally & there will be the same demand from business & capacity to pay
I reckon getting back to half pre-covid after three years would be a great result