Air NZ pilot redundancies
Whatever happened to to the big push towards Collaborative Decision Making that was was all the rage about 5 years ago. ALPA, Feds, and the company all around the table together sorting things out. Apparently it worked very well for another event that occurred in 2016, or so I was told.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: NZ
Age: 37
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An email came through from the Regional Council yesterday and they are looking to implement a CA change for furlough and FFA just like the jets are voting on now, they just need more time to discuss the finer points. Seems like a bit of mis-information being biffed around here at times.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: all over
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An email came through from the Regional Council yesterday and they are looking to implement a CA change for furlough and FFA just like the jets are voting on now, they just need more time to discuss the finer points. Seems like a bit of mis-information being biffed around here at times.
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Zeastralia
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An email came through from the Regional Council yesterday and they are looking to implement a CA change for furlough and FFA just like the jets are voting on now, they just need more time to discuss the finer points. Seems like a bit of mis-information being biffed around here at times.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ardmore, New Zealand
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An email came through from the Regional Council yesterday and they are looking to implement a CA change for furlough and FFA just like the jets are voting on now, they just need more time to discuss the finer points. Seems like a bit of mis-information being biffed around here at times.
The uprising with over 100 regional pilots wrote a letter to their ALPA council and encouraged them to look into it.
They are now looking at it.
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Zeastralia
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This idea of down training is wildly naive. 600 pilots changing seat/type within 12 months? Someone please tell me how that will happen. Literally, how does that sim plan work? How does the line training occur? It just doesn’t.
We are looking at a complete restructure of the company, or at best an offer of something like a 50% or more pay cut to stay in our current roles and save the training cost.
I’m sure plenty will scoff at this. Will anyone be able to give a realistic explanation of down training working?
We are looking at a complete restructure of the company, or at best an offer of something like a 50% or more pay cut to stay in our current roles and save the training cost.
I’m sure plenty will scoff at this. Will anyone be able to give a realistic explanation of down training working?
Within reason, I'll vote in favor of almost any temporary concessions to our CEA to avoid permanent concessions as the result of a legal challenge... the result of the AFFA vote was encouraging. It shows we are prepared to work with the Company to get through this. Yes there's more the come, but it might not be in the form of more redundancies.
200 Redundancies is around ~$25-$30M saved in Wages, give or take based on Fleet/Seniority. 14% AFFA across all Pilots is ~$25-$30M saved.
We have the option to extend the AFFA beyond 9 rosters via another Ballot. If that vote failed because the company chopped another 200 Pilots, the effective savings could be zero (give or take).
I'd say, before there's another Redundancy round, we'll be asked to take a larger cut. Or, quite possibly, there'll be calls for certain fleets to take a larger cut with little to no flying.
I cannot see a large scale down-training scenario where almost all Airbus Pilots get displaced by those off the Widebodies. It would probably take 2 years to facilitate and by then we might be bouncing back requiring everyone to get up-trained back to where they where.
Again, I reckon phase 2 will be asking for more pay concessions minimizing seat changes.
200 Redundancies is around ~$25-$30M saved in Wages, give or take based on Fleet/Seniority. 14% AFFA across all Pilots is ~$25-$30M saved.
We have the option to extend the AFFA beyond 9 rosters via another Ballot. If that vote failed because the company chopped another 200 Pilots, the effective savings could be zero (give or take).
I'd say, before there's another Redundancy round, we'll be asked to take a larger cut. Or, quite possibly, there'll be calls for certain fleets to take a larger cut with little to no flying.
I cannot see a large scale down-training scenario where almost all Airbus Pilots get displaced by those off the Widebodies. It would probably take 2 years to facilitate and by then we might be bouncing back requiring everyone to get up-trained back to where they where.
Again, I reckon phase 2 will be asking for more pay concessions minimizing seat changes.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Dunnunda
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Simple solution is the company leaves everyone where they are, pay them 25% (or more) less and wait for retirements and a recovery to take care of the rest. Probably take 3-4 years. The sooner pilots come to terms with the fact that a 9 month band aid won’t fix this, the better.
So how many redundancies are the company proposing, it was 387, is it now 200 or is that 200 not including the LWOP pilots? Seems to be a positive result for the 14% concession.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I got smashed earlier for suggesting that the airline may ultimately end up being 30% of its current size and that the redundancy expectations might be a little optimistic. Right or wrong I stand by that and frankly it may be coming to fruition given the actual reality of the situation (as much as we all like to ignore that). But Im just wondering could the company take the opportunity to place itself in voluntary liquidation and simply set aside existing creditors and more importantly unfavourable union agreements etc? Genuine question and I dont know the answer, Lets face it there is more at stake here than just the pilots who will ultimately become one of the the biggest cost going forward if this doesn't get this sorted.
There's also NPV to consider - redundancies come with cashouts and a period of notice. Voluntary salary reductions kick in immediately and have a direct positive and ongoing impact on cash flow.
Location: Dunnunda
Posts: 73
Simple solution is the company leaves everyone where they are, pay them 25% (or more) less and wait for retirements and a recovery to take care of the rest.
Posts: 73
Simple solution is the company leaves everyone where they are, pay them 25% (or more) less and wait for retirements and a recovery to take care of the rest.
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oceania
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hasn’t Qantas basically done that? Put most of its workforce on LWOP indefinitely? It seems like a sensible way to avoid redundancies. Imagine the $ they are saving. Even if Air NZ pilots all went a 30% pay reduction surely that’s better than redundancies and the cost of shifting everyone around?
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: At home
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I got smashed earlier for suggesting that the airline may ultimately end up being 30% of its current size and that the redundancy expectations might be a little optimistic. Right or wrong I stand by that and frankly it may be coming to fruition given the actual reality of the situation (as much as we all like to ignore that). But Im just wondering could the company take the opportunity to place itself in voluntary liquidation and simply set aside existing creditors and more importantly unfavourable union agreements etc? Genuine question and I dont know the answer, Lets face it there is more at stake here than just the pilots who will ultimately become one of the the biggest cost going forward if this doesn't get this sorted.
I got smashed earlier for suggesting that the airline may ultimately end up being 30% of its current size and that the redundancy expectations might be a little optimistic. Right or wrong I stand by that and frankly it may be coming to fruition given the actual reality of the situation (as much as we all like to ignore that). But Im just wondering could the company take the opportunity to place itself in voluntary liquidation and simply set aside existing creditors and more importantly unfavourable union agreements etc? Genuine question and I dont know the answer, Lets face it there is more at stake here than just the pilots who will ultimately become one of the the biggest cost going forward if this doesn't get this sorted.
Don't get me wrong, this could end up snowballing, but if it does, I can't see anyone being able to put the brakes on at 30%, we'll be in terminal freefall if things get that bad (which they could). Staff are easily gotten rid of (sadly), but the Aircraft and infrastructure required to operate at our pre-COVID Capacity cannot be so easily disposed of in the current climate. Half of the 777's we own and are currently worth nothing... couldn't give them away. The others are leased which will require maintenance for the exit lease conditions.
My crystal ball says, we'll either be ~70% of the size in the post COVID recovery (the current plan) or we won't exist.... Air New Zealand 2.0 will be an SOE after the fire sale and burning of contracts. Neither option is ideal.
387 total number from jet list to go
108 are propeller pilots (tag and release) on LWOP
= 279 jet pilots to go
74 jobs are supposedly being saved by the ballot ratification (and everyone taking a 14% pay cut)
= 205 jet pilots to go
Jet Seniority List
Considering the jet list currently has 1209 pilots.
Pilot to go = 205 (jet pilots) + 108 (prop pilots on LWOP) = 313
So the new seniority list will have just 896 pilots on it remaining.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: bkk
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The numbers are being confirmed today since the ballot ratified last night. But it is as follows:
387 total number from jet list to go
108 are propeller pilots (tag and release) on LWOP
= 279 jet pilots to go
74 jobs are supposedly being saved by the ballot ratification (and everyone taking a 14% pay cut)
= 205 jet pilots to go
Jet Seniority List
Considering the jet list currently has 1209 pilots.
Pilot to go = 205 (jet pilots) + 108 (prop pilots on LWOP) = 313
So the new seniority list will have just 896 pilots on it remaining.
387 total number from jet list to go
108 are propeller pilots (tag and release) on LWOP
= 279 jet pilots to go
74 jobs are supposedly being saved by the ballot ratification (and everyone taking a 14% pay cut)
= 205 jet pilots to go
Jet Seniority List
Considering the jet list currently has 1209 pilots.
Pilot to go = 205 (jet pilots) + 108 (prop pilots on LWOP) = 313
So the new seniority list will have just 896 pilots on it remaining.
