Air NZ pilot redundancies
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I've heard that attitude floating around, seems some regional Pilots are getting their jollies on the knowledge their former colleagues might be losing their jobs with no where to go. Pretty disgusting if you ask me and I'd suggest those particular individuals are the ones who should be questioning their own morals.
And for what it's worth, the majority of externals looking at losing their jobs are not necessarily former regional pilots who "jumped the queue".
And for what it's worth, the majority of externals looking at losing their jobs are not necessarily former regional pilots who "jumped the queue".
Why does it have to be like this? We're all pilots and most of us are adults too. I find it interesting that blokes in identical roles and in this case the same uniform can stare at each other across the board room or planning room with such contempt. For what reason? Both jobs have their individual challenges. "I'd like to see them try fly this aircraft" is an entirely pointless statement as are the empty rumours of what the other side is apparently saying. So much unnecessary competition.
/rant
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Whilst I'd like to think that isnt happening, it might be. I would suggest it might be in small numbers and I would also suggest (having worked in similar companies) there are rumours on both sides which ends up fueling the negative culture and relationship in a vicious circular logic. On the jet side we have "the prop guys are smirking at our losses and clapping hands - they're always being disrespectful!" and on the prop side we have "the jet guys are trying to rewrite the contract and take our jobs. They're always trying to take from us!".
Why does it have to be like this? We're all pilots and most of us are adults too. I find it interesting that blokes in identical roles and in this case the same uniform can stare at each other across the board room or planning room with such contempt. For what reason? Both jobs have their individual challenges. "I'd like to see them try fly this aircraft" is an entirely pointless statement as are the empty rumours of what the other side is apparently saying. So much unnecessary competition.
/rant
Why does it have to be like this? We're all pilots and most of us are adults too. I find it interesting that blokes in identical roles and in this case the same uniform can stare at each other across the board room or planning room with such contempt. For what reason? Both jobs have their individual challenges. "I'd like to see them try fly this aircraft" is an entirely pointless statement as are the empty rumours of what the other side is apparently saying. So much unnecessary competition.
/rant
Would now be the perfect time to do a complete reset regarding seniority/fleet lists, tag and release etc? Certainly would make it easier in times like this (hopefully we wouldn't see this type of pandemic in our careers again) for union/company decisions. How about a group date of joining list? It would also share the losses among the troops. I think it's pretty stink for a 10-20 year regional pilot whose been loyal to AirNZ throughout his/her career, and now who has recently joined the bottom of the jet list are potentially looking down the barrel of furlough/redundancy.
Let's face it, we had the opportunity to put the RSL on the bottom of the jet list 18 months ago but shut that down because of the cadetship attached to it and apparently to help our mates in the middle east and asian carriers a route back home. Now that there won't be any external hiring for many years to come, how about we look out for our colleagues and create a group list? I know not everyone would be comfortable with this, but now should be the time for us all to unite and look for one another.
Stay safe everyone
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Whilst I'd like to think that isnt happening, it might be. I would suggest it might be in small numbers and I would also suggest (having worked in similar companies) there are rumours on both sides which ends up fueling the negative culture and relationship in a vicious circular logic. On the jet side we have "the prop guys are smirking at our losses and clapping hands - they're always being disrespectful!" and on the prop side we have "the jet guys are trying to rewrite the contract and take our jobs. They're always trying to take from us!".
Why does it have to be like this? We're all pilots and most of us are adults too. I find it interesting that blokes in identical roles and in this case the same uniform can stare at each other across the board room or planning room with such contempt. For what reason? Both jobs have their individual challenges. "I'd like to see them try fly this aircraft" is an entirely pointless statement as are the empty rumours of what the other side is apparently saying. So much unnecessary competition.
/rant
Why does it have to be like this? We're all pilots and most of us are adults too. I find it interesting that blokes in identical roles and in this case the same uniform can stare at each other across the board room or planning room with such contempt. For what reason? Both jobs have their individual challenges. "I'd like to see them try fly this aircraft" is an entirely pointless statement as are the empty rumours of what the other side is apparently saying. So much unnecessary competition.
/rant
I think any prop drivers laughing at the jet fleets losses (if any are) are in for a rude awakening. Whilst no numbers have been put forward for regional cuts, they are proposing to cut 50% from the cabin crew ranks (ATR,Q300). Definitely not getting off scot-free.
Over my (and many others) cold dead body.
Yep it sucks. But it’s not like it sucks more or less for anyone. People gave up a lot to come into Air NZ from an external career.
Go nuts. As long as the regionals are bolted to the bottom of the jet list. And everyone who is made redundant comes back and displaces the regional guys. Wouldn’t mind being bumped down to ATR captain. Better than being made redundant.
I think it's pretty stink for a 10-20 year regional pilot whose been loyal to AirNZ throughout his/her career, and now who has recently joined the bottom of the jet list are potentially looking down the barrel of furlough/redundancy.
Now that there won't be any external hiring for many years to come, how about we look out for our colleagues and create a group list?
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Well under a group list (not RSL under Jet), this would occur, just like what is likely to happen in the jet fleets (Boeing to Bus etc.)
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Still no word on Regional numbers yet though.
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The AirNZ jet seniority list IS date of joining!? The difference since the middle of 2018 is that if you’re an external hire - for every 3 of you the company hires they have to attach the same joining date to 7 regional pilots notionally on LWOP awaiting release from the links. This was to address the unfairness of being overlooked because they couldn’t be spared off of the link fleet. The trouble arises when you have a big group hired on the same start date, you arrange the list according to Pilot total time for that start date. So some guys have been with the jet fleet for nearly 2 years and still have 30 or 40 link pilots ahead of them on the seniority list who have never started. People who were involved in the pathways development warned the designers that the system was a pit of vipers in the case of mass redundancy on multiple occasions but they were ignored.
Some good points raised.
Yes, people who make certain remarks throughout the business are a tiny minority. My comment about "some pilots" was in direct response to Corkey McFuz comment which I quoted. Secondly, I was (un)fortunate enough to be forwarded a disgusting txt message one of my junior colleagues received shortly after the 387 was announced. They're a former Regional Pilot who joined the Jet as an external. Enough said?
As we're seeing with Tag & Release, the GOP list (Joining the lists) does not come without unintended consequences.
The Cadetship being attached certainly didn't help, nor did the Regional Pilots (again, a small minority) threatening to make legal challenges to get higher Jet Seniority numbers based on their 10-015 years in the Links.
Merging the lists based on date on joining would be an industrial disaster and Slezy9 was correct in their comments about doing so.
A joint list has it's problems, and a lot of people supporting it have everything to gain by it and/or nothing to lose. What does it matter to me if 600 Regional Pilots get bolted onto this list 4-500 odd places below me?
Firstly, I'm going to state a painful truth. Many former Regional Pilots got their Air NZ Jet jobs at the times they did because those before them failed interviews... infact, that's true for most Pilots who joined any Airline in the latter stages of wave.
Many Regional Pilots got their job in the first place, because Pilots (such as myself) left and took external Jobs creating a vacancy... especially during the years where Air NZ weren't hiring.
Nothing exists in a vacuum.
I've moved an average of 20 Seniority places a year since joining Air NZ Jet. Only recently has that increased to around 30 a year. 600 Pilots on the RSL equates to 20-30 years of Jet Retirements. Those of you currently in the Regionals, who want the GOP list, take a look at your current Seniority and consider the implications of where you might be instead if the GOP list was created 10 years ago.
Whittakers goal with the GOP (with or without Cadets) was to hire young Pilots in the Regionals and keep them there, ending (or least heavily reducing) the bleed to external Jet Operators by dangling the Air NZ carrott.
If the GOP was created now, many Pilots can see the advantage of it to them. But if it was created 10 years ago, and successfully reduced the regional bleeding of Pilots, you wouldn't of been hired when you were due to less attrition. Some of you wouldn't of been hired at all, and all of you could potentially have 3-400 Jet Pilots about to displace you.
Again, nothing exists in a Vacuum, there are far reaching implications of joining the lists.
Movement in our industry is a good thing, don't be so quick to get locked into Seniority from day one and sit on the treadmill. We're often too quick to form an opinion based on our own little bubbles. Air NZ Pilots (many years ago) sold the Retirement leave for future generations because they were allowed to hold onto theirs. I viewed the GOP list in the same manner. A group of Senior Pilots selling the juniors a turd because it benefits them.
Lastly, with the GOP list, there was the problem of externals. Again, if the GOP list existed 10 years ago, how would Air NZ of expanded so rapidly? The GOP list doesn't change the Regionals ability to release Pilots so they still would of been forced to look externally but I guarantee they would of had a very poor response. With 600 Regionals Pilot ahead of you, any external would be facing 20 years as an A320 FO or SO and no one would sign up for that.
To be clear, I've always supported the Pathways project of protecting jobs for Regional Pilots who should otherwise have been on a Jet if not for being held back by their managers. But neither the GOP nor T&R are the answers in my opinion. All they needed to do, was keep everything exactly how it was, interview Regional Pilots in the same 70:30 ratio, and those who were successful but unable to be released get a Jet Number.
Yes, people who make certain remarks throughout the business are a tiny minority. My comment about "some pilots" was in direct response to Corkey McFuz comment which I quoted. Secondly, I was (un)fortunate enough to be forwarded a disgusting txt message one of my junior colleagues received shortly after the 387 was announced. They're a former Regional Pilot who joined the Jet as an external. Enough said?
As we're seeing with Tag & Release, the GOP list (Joining the lists) does not come without unintended consequences.
The Cadetship being attached certainly didn't help, nor did the Regional Pilots (again, a small minority) threatening to make legal challenges to get higher Jet Seniority numbers based on their 10-015 years in the Links.
Merging the lists based on date on joining would be an industrial disaster and Slezy9 was correct in their comments about doing so.
A joint list has it's problems, and a lot of people supporting it have everything to gain by it and/or nothing to lose. What does it matter to me if 600 Regional Pilots get bolted onto this list 4-500 odd places below me?
Firstly, I'm going to state a painful truth. Many former Regional Pilots got their Air NZ Jet jobs at the times they did because those before them failed interviews... infact, that's true for most Pilots who joined any Airline in the latter stages of wave.
Many Regional Pilots got their job in the first place, because Pilots (such as myself) left and took external Jobs creating a vacancy... especially during the years where Air NZ weren't hiring.
Nothing exists in a vacuum.
I've moved an average of 20 Seniority places a year since joining Air NZ Jet. Only recently has that increased to around 30 a year. 600 Pilots on the RSL equates to 20-30 years of Jet Retirements. Those of you currently in the Regionals, who want the GOP list, take a look at your current Seniority and consider the implications of where you might be instead if the GOP list was created 10 years ago.
Whittakers goal with the GOP (with or without Cadets) was to hire young Pilots in the Regionals and keep them there, ending (or least heavily reducing) the bleed to external Jet Operators by dangling the Air NZ carrott.
If the GOP was created now, many Pilots can see the advantage of it to them. But if it was created 10 years ago, and successfully reduced the regional bleeding of Pilots, you wouldn't of been hired when you were due to less attrition. Some of you wouldn't of been hired at all, and all of you could potentially have 3-400 Jet Pilots about to displace you.
Again, nothing exists in a Vacuum, there are far reaching implications of joining the lists.
Movement in our industry is a good thing, don't be so quick to get locked into Seniority from day one and sit on the treadmill. We're often too quick to form an opinion based on our own little bubbles. Air NZ Pilots (many years ago) sold the Retirement leave for future generations because they were allowed to hold onto theirs. I viewed the GOP list in the same manner. A group of Senior Pilots selling the juniors a turd because it benefits them.
Lastly, with the GOP list, there was the problem of externals. Again, if the GOP list existed 10 years ago, how would Air NZ of expanded so rapidly? The GOP list doesn't change the Regionals ability to release Pilots so they still would of been forced to look externally but I guarantee they would of had a very poor response. With 600 Regionals Pilot ahead of you, any external would be facing 20 years as an A320 FO or SO and no one would sign up for that.
To be clear, I've always supported the Pathways project of protecting jobs for Regional Pilots who should otherwise have been on a Jet if not for being held back by their managers. But neither the GOP nor T&R are the answers in my opinion. All they needed to do, was keep everything exactly how it was, interview Regional Pilots in the same 70:30 ratio, and those who were successful but unable to be released get a Jet Number.
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Yes, people who make certain remarks throughout the business are a tiny minority. My comment about "some pilots" was in direct response to Corkey McFuz comment which I quoted. Secondly, I was (un)fortunate enough to be forwarded a disgusting txt message one of my junior colleagues received shortly after the 387 was announced. They're a former Regional Pilot who joined the Jet as an external. Enough said?
I was agreeing with your comment on the irony in that a number of people gapped it from really good jet jobs perhaps on the assumption of job security. Had they stayed (at two operators) they would likely still be employed. Many of these pilots had only been at said operators for 5 minutes having barely been checked to line, some not paying bonds but in general fu*king over the hand that feeds them. That is not a good way to do life and may well have effected their career severely because they sure won't be able to return to either of the two remaining other jet operators in NZ. If I was them and had the opportunity to fly a good job again I would be reassessing some of those practices/attitudes because in cases like this, it may well have ruined their chances of reviving their jet career in this part of the world.
It's bloody sad, I feel for them and I'm in no competition or poking fun, my fate has all ready been decided, my career is down the tubes.
If you've got a problem with my comments or the group you think I'm with then take it up with me via PM
Last edited by Corkey McFuz; 17th Apr 2020 at 01:50.
Settle down mate and don't take my comments out of context. I'm not a regional pilot you're talking about, I've never worked for the Air NZ group so haven't experienced the particular attitudes/people you're talking about, in fact I never mentioned regional at all.
I was agreeing with your comment on the irony in that a number of people gapped it from really good jet jobs perhaps on the assumption of job security. Had they stayed (at two operators) they would likely still be employed. Many of these pilots had only been at said operators for 5 minutes having barely been checked to line, some not paying bonds but in general fu*king over the hand that feeds them. That is not a good way to do life and may well have effected their career severely because they sure won't be able to return to either of the two remaining other jet operators in NZ. If I was them and had the opportunity to fly a good job again I would be reassessing some of those practices/attitudes because in cases like this, it may well have ruined their chances of reviving their jet career in this part of the world.
It's bloody sad, I feel for them and I'm in no competition or poking fun, my fate has all ready been decided, my career is down the tubes.
If you've got a problem with my comments or the group you think I'm with then take it up with me via PM
I was agreeing with your comment on the irony in that a number of people gapped it from really good jet jobs perhaps on the assumption of job security. Had they stayed (at two operators) they would likely still be employed. Many of these pilots had only been at said operators for 5 minutes having barely been checked to line, some not paying bonds but in general fu*king over the hand that feeds them. That is not a good way to do life and may well have effected their career severely because they sure won't be able to return to either of the two remaining other jet operators in NZ. If I was them and had the opportunity to fly a good job again I would be reassessing some of those practices/attitudes because in cases like this, it may well have ruined their chances of reviving their jet career in this part of the world.
It's bloody sad, I feel for them and I'm in no competition or poking fun, my fate has all ready been decided, my career is down the tubes.
If you've got a problem with my comments or the group you think I'm with then take it up with me via PM
There have been a lot of back and forths in this thread, so as you said, lets not take individual posts out of context. My original post which you first quoted referred to external Pilots coming to Air NZ for more Job security. That referred to all externals. The 387 is made up of Pilots from all backgrounds, including those returning home after years in Asia or ME. We also have former Captains (some were Check and Training) from JQ, JC & Virgin who all did significantly longer than 5 minutes with those carriers as did many of the FO's who came across after 3-5 years with their respective Airlines. All are facing redundancy, including former Regional Pilots who "did everything right".
Appreciate you didn't mention Regionals, but who else went to JQ (etc) for 5 minutes and subsequently joined Air NZ?
Anyway, wasn't having a go at you, but what you said because unfortunately, you aren't the first one to say it as I mentioned in a subsequent post about a txt message I was shown directed at an ex Regional Pilot.
-edited-
Last edited by ElZilcho; 17th Apr 2020 at 02:40.
I think they will be able to get Pilot jobs in Australia , Qantas Group will have many jobs in the Future and I’m sure will accept many KiWIs back to the ranks , by this stage though Air NZ may be at full capacity again , especially as the PM is a fan of Immigration.
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No point in using PM's, disabled them years ago.
There have been a lot of back and forths in this thread, so as you said, lets not take individual posts out of context. My original post which you first quoted referred to external Pilots coming to Air NZ for more Job security. That referred to all externals. The 387 is made up of Pilots from all backgrounds, including those returning home after years in Asia or ME. We also have former Captains (some were Check and Training) from JQ, JC & Virgin who all did significantly longer than 5 minutes with those carriers as did many of the FO's who came across after 3-5 years with their respective Airlines. All are facing redundancy, including former Regional Pilots who "did everything right".
Appreciate you didn't mention Regionals, but who else went to JQ (etc) for 5 minutes and subsequently joined Air NZ?
Anyway, wasn't having a go at you, but what you said because unfortunately, you aren't the first one to say it as I mentioned in a subsequent post about a txt message I was shown directed at an ex Regional Pilot.
-edited-
There have been a lot of back and forths in this thread, so as you said, lets not take individual posts out of context. My original post which you first quoted referred to external Pilots coming to Air NZ for more Job security. That referred to all externals. The 387 is made up of Pilots from all backgrounds, including those returning home after years in Asia or ME. We also have former Captains (some were Check and Training) from JQ, JC & Virgin who all did significantly longer than 5 minutes with those carriers as did many of the FO's who came across after 3-5 years with their respective Airlines. All are facing redundancy, including former Regional Pilots who "did everything right".
Appreciate you didn't mention Regionals, but who else went to JQ (etc) for 5 minutes and subsequently joined Air NZ?
Anyway, wasn't having a go at you, but what you said because unfortunately, you aren't the first one to say it as I mentioned in a subsequent post about a txt message I was shown directed at an ex Regional Pilot.
-edited-
JQ in particular got smashed because of the type rating and they were bloody desperate for pilots due the massive turnover, they almost became a training ground for air nz. I had heard of a whole course at JQ that never made it to their first cyclic because they were out the door to air nz. Others already had a yes letter before completing the line training courtesy of these middle airlines. Oh and there's the "forgetting to sign the bond" thing,- thanks for the type rating, ill catch you later.
It's just my humble opinion that this behavior is not cool and if a company has pumped the time and money into them then they should at least give a some years (plural) return of service because these places don't exist for the purpose of providing a leg up into air nz for aspiring young pilots.
Personally, if at all possible, I wouldn't leave a company in a way that wouldn't allow me a welcome return in the future. For many of these people I'm talking about, this is now an issue. This industry, especially in this part of the world, is far far to small to go burning bridges.
Again, I'm not anything to do with nz regional, never have been. I'm not poking fun or being a smart arse. I find it despicable that people would be doing that at a time like this and I'm quite intrigued to know the contents of this text message.
All I was saying was that for some people the doors to previous operators and those in their group will remain closed to them. That could be links, qantas group, virgin group (if they survive) cathay, m/e whatever, doesn't matter. That's a really **** situation and I'm sorry to those guys and girls. But if they DO get a shot at another good jet job, hows about re thinking tactics and don't use and abuse the fortunate position.
All fair points Corkey, I wasn't aware Pilots were transiting JQ so quickly. The only Pilots I know personally who came from JQ did so early in the piece when Air NZ were running short courses for them and all had done at least 2-3 years if not more. I have heard that some ex-regional Pilots had done 1-2 years with an external Carrier before getting called to Air NZ but understood they were mostly ex-Eagle who left just prior to the shutdown.
"Forgetting" to sign bonds is quite underhanded and ruins it for the guys after you. It's attitudes like that which see operators demand you self fund your type rating upfront, something I strongly oppose.
As for that txt, well for the sake of retaining some anonymity for those involved I wont repeat it here, but it basically told an ex-regional Pilot they (and everyone else in similar circumstances) are getting what they deserve.
Unfortunately, emotions are running high at the moment and it's bringing out the worst in people. Within the Jet Fleet there's been some equally toxic communications circulating, diving young and old, junior and senior, ALPA or FED. As I said in the QF thread about Seniority, there's going to be a few guys buying their own beers once this is all over.
<edited - don't want to add fuel to the flames around regional vs external hires>
"Forgetting" to sign bonds is quite underhanded and ruins it for the guys after you. It's attitudes like that which see operators demand you self fund your type rating upfront, something I strongly oppose.
As for that txt, well for the sake of retaining some anonymity for those involved I wont repeat it here, but it basically told an ex-regional Pilot they (and everyone else in similar circumstances) are getting what they deserve.
Unfortunately, emotions are running high at the moment and it's bringing out the worst in people. Within the Jet Fleet there's been some equally toxic communications circulating, diving young and old, junior and senior, ALPA or FED. As I said in the QF thread about Seniority, there's going to be a few guys buying their own beers once this is all over.
<edited - don't want to add fuel to the flames around regional vs external hires>
Last edited by ElZilcho; 17th Apr 2020 at 06:03.
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There were many externals who had been at their previous jet company for a short period of time. I'm talking JQ JC VA in nz and oz, cathay, the freight operators etc etc. Prior to that, sure there were many GA, air ambos, Jetstar regional, ozzy, probably many others and of course the links. The point I was making re the morals was about going to these jet operators, irrespective of where they came from, and being there for such a short period of time before going to Air NZ. Yip I appreciate there were many who did their time and provided a great return of service, but there were many who didn't and its those who I was thinking about. You will have to admit, the pilot movements in NZ for the last 3 years were extraordinary and I get the argument that if the opportunity is there etc etc. I also get that a great many people view these middle operators at stepping stones, which is fine. But there is using them as stepping stones and there is taking the piss. A lot of taking the piss occurred in the last 3 years.
JQ in particular got smashed because of the type rating and they were bloody desperate for pilots due the massive turnover, they almost became a training ground for air nz. I had heard of a whole course at JQ that never made it to their first cyclic because they were out the door to air nz. Others already had a yes letter before completing the line training courtesy of these middle airlines. Oh and there's the "forgetting to sign the bond" thing,- thanks for the type rating, ill catch you later.
It's just my humble opinion that this behavior is not cool and if a company has pumped the time and money into them then they should at least give a some years (plural) return of service because these places don't exist for the purpose of providing a leg up into air nz for aspiring young pilots.
Personally, if at all possible, I wouldn't leave a company in a way that wouldn't allow me a welcome return in the future. For many of these people I'm talking about, this is now an issue. This industry, especially in this part of the world, is far far to small to go burning bridges.
Again, I'm not anything to do with nz regional, never have been. I'm not poking fun or being a smart arse. I find it despicable that people would be doing that at a time like this and I'm quite intrigued to know the contents of this text message.
All I was saying was that for some people the doors to previous operators and those in their group will remain closed to them. That could be links, qantas group, virgin group (if they survive) cathay, m/e whatever, doesn't matter. That's a really **** situation and I'm sorry to those guys and girls. But if they DO get a shot at another good jet job, hows about re thinking tactics and don't use and abuse the fortunate position.
JQ in particular got smashed because of the type rating and they were bloody desperate for pilots due the massive turnover, they almost became a training ground for air nz. I had heard of a whole course at JQ that never made it to their first cyclic because they were out the door to air nz. Others already had a yes letter before completing the line training courtesy of these middle airlines. Oh and there's the "forgetting to sign the bond" thing,- thanks for the type rating, ill catch you later.
It's just my humble opinion that this behavior is not cool and if a company has pumped the time and money into them then they should at least give a some years (plural) return of service because these places don't exist for the purpose of providing a leg up into air nz for aspiring young pilots.
Personally, if at all possible, I wouldn't leave a company in a way that wouldn't allow me a welcome return in the future. For many of these people I'm talking about, this is now an issue. This industry, especially in this part of the world, is far far to small to go burning bridges.
Again, I'm not anything to do with nz regional, never have been. I'm not poking fun or being a smart arse. I find it despicable that people would be doing that at a time like this and I'm quite intrigued to know the contents of this text message.
All I was saying was that for some people the doors to previous operators and those in their group will remain closed to them. That could be links, qantas group, virgin group (if they survive) cathay, m/e whatever, doesn't matter. That's a really **** situation and I'm sorry to those guys and girls. But if they DO get a shot at another good jet job, hows about re thinking tactics and don't use and abuse the fortunate position.
Yep, there are a few who would never be welcomed back to JQ due to their behaviour. Having said that it only numbers a handful who left only months into their employment and refused to pay bonds etc, most ex JQ guys left on very good terms. And of course the other point is...... will there even be a JQ to try and go back to?
It is unlikely that Qantas Group will return to its former size for a while yet, and when it does they will have local pilots displaced from Tiger and a smaller Virgin (if it survives) to choose from first, plus plenty of applicants from lesser regionals around the country.
Someone better placed than I can confirm or deny what I have said.
