Air NZ pilot redundancies
Makes you wonder if the unions knew there would be deeper cuts to begin with, so just started with a 14% pay cut. I will expect to see the SLT take a further cut before pilots do though.
Does anyone know the news on the NZ engineers? They've managed to avoid all media it appears.
Does anyone know the news on the NZ engineers? They've managed to avoid all media it appears.
Ginger Bears had similar issues to the jet pilots where a lot of the older boys close to retirement put their hands up to go early but Air NZ management turned it down becasue it's cheaper to get rid of the younger boys and girls.
Bloody shame.
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Most of the regional pax with international journeys travelled either first flight out or evening tie down. Especially for AU and pacific connections.
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RNZ interview with Foran says Airports, Cabin crew and Pilots (and others) as targets for further cost cutting.
Last edited by purplemonkydishwashr; 5th Jun 2020 at 12:07. Reason: More accurate
I was expecting them to ask for deeper cuts, but not so soon after signing the AFFA... guess the patients really are running the asylum. The agreement was signed for 3 rosters extendable to 9 and the inks barely dried. The amount of time wasted to basically start the process all over again....
Anyway, Foran wants to slash costs (wages) now, during his “survive” phase through to the end of August. Pilot notice period for redundancy is 3 months meaning it wouldn’t have any effect until September... probably October after we go through the motions again. There would also be no F20’s if they made another cut significant enough to have any tangible effect on costs.
Take note of the table in the AFFA agreement. We signed for 14% but it goes to 50%. 777 will soon be grounded until at least the end of the year. I expect we’ll be faced with Fleet/Rank proposals for varying amounts of Flexi or LWOP.
Should we refuse, the CEA and AFFA still apply. Foran might chop the bottom again, but I don’t see he would crew the Bus if he did. Word is, with the Tasman bubble looking likely, the Airbus fleet will be at its 70% target by the end of the year and they simply can’t train 180 FO’s in the next 6 months.
I’d say things are about to get ugly. The most Senior fleet is grounded, the most Junior will be doing to bulk of the work. We all know how redundancies work, but how many 777 Pilots will voluntarily sign up for 50% or LWOP? Would Carrie?
Anyway, Foran wants to slash costs (wages) now, during his “survive” phase through to the end of August. Pilot notice period for redundancy is 3 months meaning it wouldn’t have any effect until September... probably October after we go through the motions again. There would also be no F20’s if they made another cut significant enough to have any tangible effect on costs.
Take note of the table in the AFFA agreement. We signed for 14% but it goes to 50%. 777 will soon be grounded until at least the end of the year. I expect we’ll be faced with Fleet/Rank proposals for varying amounts of Flexi or LWOP.
Should we refuse, the CEA and AFFA still apply. Foran might chop the bottom again, but I don’t see he would crew the Bus if he did. Word is, with the Tasman bubble looking likely, the Airbus fleet will be at its 70% target by the end of the year and they simply can’t train 180 FO’s in the next 6 months.
I’d say things are about to get ugly. The most Senior fleet is grounded, the most Junior will be doing to bulk of the work. We all know how redundancies work, but how many 777 Pilots will voluntarily sign up for 50% or LWOP? Would Carrie?
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Thoughts go out to all the affected employee's, its not a nice situation to be in but hang in there.
In my humble opinion Air NZ have really dropped the ball of late. The redundancies don't seem to have been particularly well handled and personally I feel there are times when the CEO should front the media and not send out one of the troops. And lastly, although it's not legally required, I would argue its morally required to provide refunds to pax rather than credits. People are hurting out there and every dollar counts.
In my humble opinion Air NZ have really dropped the ball of late. The redundancies don't seem to have been particularly well handled and personally I feel there are times when the CEO should front the media and not send out one of the troops. And lastly, although it's not legally required, I would argue its morally required to provide refunds to pax rather than credits. People are hurting out there and every dollar counts.
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Thoughts go out to all the affected employee's, its not a nice situation to be in but hang in there.
And lastly, although it's not legally required, I would argue its morally required to provide refunds to pax rather than credits. People are hurting out there and every dollar counts.
And lastly, although it's not legally required, I would argue its morally required to provide refunds to pax rather than credits. People are hurting out there and every dollar counts.
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I agree, the PR handling of the refunds issue has been poor. GF is in the media now as saying offering refunds would sink the joint.
They have gone to ground on the communication. Getting a refund even on fully refundable tickets is near impossible. They have removed that option from the phone app, the website and try getting hold of anyone on the 0800 number. It wont even let you hold, after a pre recorded message it just ends the call. Accessing any credit to book another flight also requires using the uncontactable call centre.
No wonder it took one passenger to take out a classified ad in the newspaper asking to be contacted by them.
Badly handled.
They have gone to ground on the communication. Getting a refund even on fully refundable tickets is near impossible. They have removed that option from the phone app, the website and try getting hold of anyone on the 0800 number. It wont even let you hold, after a pre recorded message it just ends the call. Accessing any credit to book another flight also requires using the uncontactable call centre.
No wonder it took one passenger to take out a classified ad in the newspaper asking to be contacted by them.
Badly handled.
PR has been terrible yes, as the Exco need to say what they mean and not simply infer through management speak. However, are things really so different across the ditch? Or anywhere in the World where Airlines are not legally required to refund? (genuine question as I haven't really being following it).
Not sure how many of you (or the general public) have worked in a call centre before, but you simply cannot throw more staff into one overnight and call it a day. Assuming there's enough floor space, they need desks, chairs, phones which the IT guys need to patch back tho the main switch.. assuming it's not full. They need training... now try do all that during level 4 lockdown (our call centre hasn't been sent offshore yet).
So my question to the PPrune panel of experts, how should it of been handled differently? How does one reduce wait times in a call centre when the Government has locked the country down? How do you roll out new software to deal with credits overnight?
Worlds going to **** yet somehow there's also infinite resources to deal with customer demands.
Not sure how many of you (or the general public) have worked in a call centre before, but you simply cannot throw more staff into one overnight and call it a day. Assuming there's enough floor space, they need desks, chairs, phones which the IT guys need to patch back tho the main switch.. assuming it's not full. They need training... now try do all that during level 4 lockdown (our call centre hasn't been sent offshore yet).
So my question to the PPrune panel of experts, how should it of been handled differently? How does one reduce wait times in a call centre when the Government has locked the country down? How do you roll out new software to deal with credits overnight?
Worlds going to **** yet somehow there's also infinite resources to deal with customer demands.
PR has been terrible yes, as the Exco need to say what they mean and not simply infer through management speak. However, are things really so different across the ditch? Or anywhere in the World where Airlines are not legally required to refund? (genuine question as I haven't really being following it).
Not sure how many of you (or the general public) have worked in a call centre before, but you simply cannot throw more staff into one overnight and call it a day. Assuming there's enough floor space, they need desks, chairs, phones which the IT guys need to patch back tho the main switch.. assuming it's not full. They need training... now try do all that during level 4 lockdown (our call centre hasn't been sent offshore yet).
So my question to the PPrune panel of experts, how should it of been handled differently? How does one reduce wait times in a call centre when the Government has locked the country down? How do you roll out new software to deal with credits overnight?
Worlds going to **** yet somehow there's also infinite resources to deal with customer demands.
Not sure how many of you (or the general public) have worked in a call centre before, but you simply cannot throw more staff into one overnight and call it a day. Assuming there's enough floor space, they need desks, chairs, phones which the IT guys need to patch back tho the main switch.. assuming it's not full. They need training... now try do all that during level 4 lockdown (our call centre hasn't been sent offshore yet).
So my question to the PPrune panel of experts, how should it of been handled differently? How does one reduce wait times in a call centre when the Government has locked the country down? How do you roll out new software to deal with credits overnight?
Worlds going to **** yet somehow there's also infinite resources to deal with customer demands.
Much like this affected by Virgin’s voluntary administration, no one is getting refunds there (including some family members of mine). But everyone is more concerned about the airline actually surviving to be able to use the credit!
The media and the public are creating a **** storm, and everyone seems to think that the company is unsinkable.
People agreed to the terms and conditions of the tickets. And now it doesn’t suit them... I think the scape goat that is occurring isn’t entirely fair. And now Fair Go is attacking the company for refunds.
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PR has been terrible yes, as the Exco need to say what they mean and not simply infer through management speak. However, are things really so different across the ditch? Or anywhere in the World where Airlines are not legally required to refund? (genuine question as I haven't really being following it).
Not sure how many of you (or the general public) have worked in a call centre before, but you simply cannot throw more staff into one overnight and call it a day. Assuming there's enough floor space, they need desks, chairs, phones which the IT guys need to patch back tho the main switch.. assuming it's not full. They need training... now try do all that during level 4 lockdown (our call centre hasn't been sent offshore yet).
So my question to the PPrune panel of experts, how should it of been handled differently? How does one reduce wait times in a call centre when the Government has locked the country down? How do you roll out new software to deal with credits overnight?
Worlds going to **** yet somehow there's also infinite resources to deal with customer demands.
Not sure how many of you (or the general public) have worked in a call centre before, but you simply cannot throw more staff into one overnight and call it a day. Assuming there's enough floor space, they need desks, chairs, phones which the IT guys need to patch back tho the main switch.. assuming it's not full. They need training... now try do all that during level 4 lockdown (our call centre hasn't been sent offshore yet).
So my question to the PPrune panel of experts, how should it of been handled differently? How does one reduce wait times in a call centre when the Government has locked the country down? How do you roll out new software to deal with credits overnight?
Worlds going to **** yet somehow there's also infinite resources to deal with customer demands.
I didn't have any trouble getting a hold of the call centre during the depths of level 4. May have been lucky? Only since. Just seems to me they have done a "Jetstar" and purposely gone out of their way to make customers lives hard particularly around the refunds for genuinely refundable tickets and those trying to meaningfully use their credit without getting stung extra.
There's been a definite and intentional shift in how customers are being treated and it's at odds with the "So, Thrive" paragraphs in Gregs recent email.
When speaking to someone I know in the Call Centre, it got a bit chaotic during level 4 but when the Airline pleaded with people to only call in for flights within 48hrs (from memory), it became more manageable... although some people were still calling in about their 2021 bookings.
Once the full scale of COVID was realised however, it went nuts, especially in respect to refunds, but again, resources are not endless and you can't just bolster the call centre at the drop of the hat. Especially a local one. I'm sure "Off-shore" Call centres have people they can move around to bolster specific companies requirements as demand changes. Probably another reason why so many companies no longer keep them in house.
Unfortunately, whenever someone has to wait X hours to get through (or can't) the Media will write a full page article about. But Joe Blogs who got through and received a full refund, well, you need to sift through the reader comments on social media if you want their version of events. People have been getting refunds on compassionate grounds, but it's extremely time consuming as it's on a case by case basis. Something people don't like to admit, is there are people out there trying to take the piss so it has to be done manually. Plenty of refund requests have been for flights that weren't actually cancelled, but the event the people were flying to was... or for future flights that have not been cancelled yet.
At the end of the day, none of us are blind to how the media operate. Yes, it has been a shambles and the Airline(s) are playing catch up, but the media thrives on negative articles not positive ones. We also know that Airlines, like many Business, survive on future bookings revenue. If we want to talk about an industry wide shakeup then I'm all for it, but that's a discussion for tomorrow. People need to read the T's & C's of the tickets they purchase not just the Grab a Seat price.
Once the full scale of COVID was realised however, it went nuts, especially in respect to refunds, but again, resources are not endless and you can't just bolster the call centre at the drop of the hat. Especially a local one. I'm sure "Off-shore" Call centres have people they can move around to bolster specific companies requirements as demand changes. Probably another reason why so many companies no longer keep them in house.
Unfortunately, whenever someone has to wait X hours to get through (or can't) the Media will write a full page article about. But Joe Blogs who got through and received a full refund, well, you need to sift through the reader comments on social media if you want their version of events. People have been getting refunds on compassionate grounds, but it's extremely time consuming as it's on a case by case basis. Something people don't like to admit, is there are people out there trying to take the piss so it has to be done manually. Plenty of refund requests have been for flights that weren't actually cancelled, but the event the people were flying to was... or for future flights that have not been cancelled yet.
At the end of the day, none of us are blind to how the media operate. Yes, it has been a shambles and the Airline(s) are playing catch up, but the media thrives on negative articles not positive ones. We also know that Airlines, like many Business, survive on future bookings revenue. If we want to talk about an industry wide shakeup then I'm all for it, but that's a discussion for tomorrow. People need to read the T's & C's of the tickets they purchase not just the Grab a Seat price.
Air NZ is burning through about $35M a week.
Qantas as a comparison is burning through about $40M a week, but has much more revenue coming in today and into the immediate future.
Qantas is soon to announce their restructure...significant job losses are inevitable. This is no speculation on what will happen to pilots though. Qantas is no shining light when it comes to employment relations. My point is, and I’ve made it before, getting paid 50,60,70 or 90% of your salary whilst you are not working is shooting yourself in the foot. Agreeing to a further small pay cut to save some jobs is putting a band aid on when surgery is required. I’m gobsmacked at the piecemeal process which is costing not only jobs now but also potentially the rate of reemployment at the other side.
I genuinely don’t like seeing pilots lose their job. I see a better way but the leadership seems lacking. I respect people will disagree with me. My thoughts to all.
Qantas as a comparison is burning through about $40M a week, but has much more revenue coming in today and into the immediate future.
Qantas is soon to announce their restructure...significant job losses are inevitable. This is no speculation on what will happen to pilots though. Qantas is no shining light when it comes to employment relations. My point is, and I’ve made it before, getting paid 50,60,70 or 90% of your salary whilst you are not working is shooting yourself in the foot. Agreeing to a further small pay cut to save some jobs is putting a band aid on when surgery is required. I’m gobsmacked at the piecemeal process which is costing not only jobs now but also potentially the rate of reemployment at the other side.
I genuinely don’t like seeing pilots lose their job. I see a better way but the leadership seems lacking. I respect people will disagree with me. My thoughts to all.
The biggest problem Crosscutter, is we simply can't do anything "by fleet". Air NZ is ruled by Seniority and the only way around it is either by agreement or legal challenge... sadly, I worry me might force ourselves down the latter path if/when all the Senior Pilots sit arms folded when Foran asks 777 Pilots to take LWOP or Part-time.
Because of how our CEA works, a senior Pilot on the 777 can sit at home doing nothing and demand to be moved to a fleet that is flying in order to retain their paycheque. This is essentially the notional process, and under normal circumstances it works. But there's nothing "normal" about COVID. I'd say Air NZ has chopped about as much off the bottom as they can without facing the "double training" problem.. that is, a senior Pilot gets down-trained to the A320 for 6-12 months then re-trained back to where they were when the Redundant Pilots are recalled.
Based on the current number of redundancies, I cannot see the above occuring anytime in the next 2-3 years. If they take another cut however, a lot of down-training movements will be temporary.
I'm all but certain Foran will propose 777 Pilots (in particular but not exclusively) accept LWOP or maybe 50% Pay for the next 3-6 months. If that is refused on the basis of "Mah Contract!" then he will be left with only 2 options. More Redundancies or a Legal Challenge against Seniority... both come with additional costs and logistical problems, but if there were ever a time to successfully challenge the "Iron Clad" Seniority clauses in our CEA, it's now. I hope my colleagues can see that and don't force his hand. The "survive" phase is only for the next 3 months. I hope we don't see permanent damage to our CEA for the sake of 3 months sacrifice.
Because of how our CEA works, a senior Pilot on the 777 can sit at home doing nothing and demand to be moved to a fleet that is flying in order to retain their paycheque. This is essentially the notional process, and under normal circumstances it works. But there's nothing "normal" about COVID. I'd say Air NZ has chopped about as much off the bottom as they can without facing the "double training" problem.. that is, a senior Pilot gets down-trained to the A320 for 6-12 months then re-trained back to where they were when the Redundant Pilots are recalled.
Based on the current number of redundancies, I cannot see the above occuring anytime in the next 2-3 years. If they take another cut however, a lot of down-training movements will be temporary.
I'm all but certain Foran will propose 777 Pilots (in particular but not exclusively) accept LWOP or maybe 50% Pay for the next 3-6 months. If that is refused on the basis of "Mah Contract!" then he will be left with only 2 options. More Redundancies or a Legal Challenge against Seniority... both come with additional costs and logistical problems, but if there were ever a time to successfully challenge the "Iron Clad" Seniority clauses in our CEA, it's now. I hope my colleagues can see that and don't force his hand. The "survive" phase is only for the next 3 months. I hope we don't see permanent damage to our CEA for the sake of 3 months sacrifice.
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Qantas is soon to announce their restructure...significant job losses are inevitable. This is no speculation on what will happen to pilots though. Qantas is no shining light when it comes to employment relations. My point is, and I’ve made it before, getting paid 50,60,70 or 90% of your salary whilst you are not working is shooting yourself in the foot. Agreeing to a further small pay cut to save some jobs is putting a band aid on when surgery is required. I’m gobsmacked at the piecemeal process which is costing not only jobs now but also potentially the rate of reemployment at the other side.
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Any word/rumours on what this new round of wage cutting will have on regional crew? Jet I guess hasn't changed much since the last round but regional I understand has picked up quicker than expected.
I was expecting them to ask for deeper cuts, but not so soon after signing the AFFA... guess the patients really are running the asylum. The agreement was signed for 3 rosters extendable to 9 and the inks barely dried. The amount of time wasted to basically start the process all over again....
Anyway, Foran wants to slash costs (wages) now, during his “survive” phase through to the end of August. Pilot notice period for redundancy is 3 months meaning it wouldn’t have any effect until September... probably October after we go through the motions again. There would also be no F20’s if they made another cut significant enough to have any tangible effect on costs.
Take note of the table in the AFFA agreement. We signed for 14% but it goes to 50%. 777 will soon be grounded until at least the end of the year. I expect we’ll be faced with Fleet/Rank proposals for varying amounts of Flexi or LWOP.
Should we refuse, the CEA and AFFA still apply. Foran might chop the bottom again, but I don’t see he would crew the Bus if he did. Word is, with the Tasman bubble looking likely, the Airbus fleet will be at its 70% target by the end of the year and they simply can’t train 180 FO’s in the next 6 months.
I’d say things are about to get ugly. The most Senior fleet is grounded, the most Junior will be doing to bulk of the work. We all know how redundancies work, but how many 777 Pilots will voluntarily sign up for 50% or LWOP? Would Carrie?
Anyway, Foran wants to slash costs (wages) now, during his “survive” phase through to the end of August. Pilot notice period for redundancy is 3 months meaning it wouldn’t have any effect until September... probably October after we go through the motions again. There would also be no F20’s if they made another cut significant enough to have any tangible effect on costs.
Take note of the table in the AFFA agreement. We signed for 14% but it goes to 50%. 777 will soon be grounded until at least the end of the year. I expect we’ll be faced with Fleet/Rank proposals for varying amounts of Flexi or LWOP.
Should we refuse, the CEA and AFFA still apply. Foran might chop the bottom again, but I don’t see he would crew the Bus if he did. Word is, with the Tasman bubble looking likely, the Airbus fleet will be at its 70% target by the end of the year and they simply can’t train 180 FO’s in the next 6 months.
I’d say things are about to get ugly. The most Senior fleet is grounded, the most Junior will be doing to bulk of the work. We all know how redundancies work, but how many 777 Pilots will voluntarily sign up for 50% or LWOP? Would Carrie?
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She ticks all the diversity boxes so she won't be going anywhere. During the search for the new CEO her name had popped up in a few conversations, thank christ that never eventuated.
For what it’s worth there will be redundancy of pilots in Qantas. They are working on a package for the over sixties at the moment and my guess is if that doesn’t get enough it will be compulsory redundancy.
