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Air NZ pilot redundancies

Old 11th May 2020, 00:53
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho View Post
And yet for those 2 months, the company did not revise their Pilot Redundancy numbers, and agreed to the AFFA as a means to reduce Redundancies as little as 2 weeks ago.
Greg Foran's latests communication changed the timeframe, but not the 70%. That is what they're sticking with and that is what Pilot Redundancies were based off. If Redundancies were based on the current flying schedule, 700+ would of gotten letters last week.

To approach this with a bit more common sense. In 3 months time (redundancy notice Period) the Airbus fleet will lose over half it's First Officers right as Domestic (and potentially Trans-Tasman) begin to pick back up. Under normal circumstances it takes approximately 3 months (Sim + Line training) to facilitate a fleet change. Obviously they can't have 100 Pilots training simultaneously. If they decide to take another swipe off the bottom, say 200 for example, that would be all the Airbus FO's gone, and probably a few Captains. The only fleet with much work on would be grounded.

I've said it countless times, and until proven wrong, I'll keep saying it. COVID-19 is a disaster, but it wont be solved with more redundancies. Pre-Covid, Jet Pilot wages made up approximately 17% of the Total Wage bill and ~4-5% of the total annual expenses. Redundancies have shaved off about $20M, while the AFFA will be closer to $30M (annualized). The AFFA savings are immediate while the Redundancies have yet to come into effect.

If Air NZ are serious about being 70% size (which Foran confirmed a few days ago, merely pushing it out to 2022), any Pilot Redundancies beyond those numbers will result in even more strain on the training department as Pilots get recalled and down-trained Pilots get another direction back up the list.

Those most Junior Pilots, post redundancy, are about 4 years in, so their redundancies wont be as cheap (unless of course they take Furlough). On average, I'd say another 200 Pilot redundancies would cost 6-7 months Pay (notice period + redundancy). The Company then run the risk of the remaining Pilots not agreeing to extend the AFFA, which is worth more in cost savings than Redundancies.

Don't get me wrong, COVID isn't over by a long shot, but the next battle wont be the Axe chopping another 200 off the bottom. It'll be the Company requesting an extension to the AFFA and/or more concessions the the CEA.


Credit where credit is due ElZilcho...

A coherent, sensible and well written few paragraphs of text there. (Highly unusual to see this on this forum these days)...
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Old 11th May 2020, 02:45
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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ElZilcho, you are quite possibly one of the most level headed posters on ANZ related issues. A bit of sanity in these times is greatly appreciated. Thank you sir!
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Old 21st May 2020, 04:07
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Heard the rumour today that they're about to move most 772s to Alice Springs for long term storage before winter and the associated moisture issues with storage.

Feel for the guys at the bottom of the new list, I can only imagine removing the 772 fleet will cut another 100 pilots off the bottom of the list.
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Old 21st May 2020, 04:14
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by InZed View Post
Heard the rumour today that they're about to move most 772s to Alice Springs for long term storage before winter and the associated moisture issues with storage.

Feel for the guys at the bottom of the new list, I can only imagine removing the 772 fleet will cut another 100 pilots off the bottom of the list.
I think you need to re-read your company and union emails. The 2021 numbers are all done on only having two 773s in service. The removal of the other 13 frames is already factored in (all 200s and balance of 300s).
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Old 21st May 2020, 04:40
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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We have 15 777's. 7x 300's and 8x 200's (excluding the SQ & EVA leases which have been returned). The Notional Seniority list provides crewing for 2x 777's, so parking most of them was always the plan.
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Old 26th May 2020, 00:33
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...orld-on-26-may

"Air New Zealand says it will make a loss because of the Covid-19 pandemic.

The airline says it has had little revenue over the past six weeks under the level 4 and 3 lockdowns, having cut its capacity by 95 percent.

It's given no precise figure of the loss, but last year's earnings before tax and other charges were $374 million.

Chief financial officer Jeff McDowall said the airline is taking every step to limit its costs through redundancies, deferral of plane purchases, grounding a large part of its fleet and a freeze on non-essential spending.

He said the airline will take one-off financial hits because of the virus of between $554 million and $694 million.

McDowall says Air New Zealand has about $640 million in cash and hasn't yet touched the government loan of $900 million."
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Old 26th May 2020, 11:39
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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More redundancies to come I suspect???
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Old 26th May 2020, 19:53
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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The word around the unions is possibly another 100 pilots to go in round 2.
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Old 26th May 2020, 19:57
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Logan31 View Post
More redundancies to come I suspect???
Yip, Greg has the axe on the whetstone as we speak!
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Old 26th May 2020, 20:50
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
The word around the unions is possibly another 100 pilots to go in round 2.
I know it has to be bottom up to be IAW the CEA, but wow, the mountain of training that is being created! The A320 will be the biggest fleet in the near term but there will be almost no FO's left and a good chunk of Capt's will be down-trained (with many not choosing to do the simple seat swap and heading off to be a widebody FO)

Supposedly 40 senior pilots accepted a voluntary redundancy, then the company only offered approximately 50% of what is in the contract! Unsurprisingly no one accepted the offer!
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Old 26th May 2020, 21:10
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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The down training is a killer for the business but how else should it be done. I know that I prefer a straight LIFO as opposed to allowing management to ‘select’ who they want to go. Also there should be a massive cost associated with making people redundant, hopefully the down training and cost may dissuade Air NZ from carrying out any more redundancies and the 100 mentioned above will turn out just to be a rumour.
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Old 26th May 2020, 21:13
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
The word around the unions is possibly another 100 pilots to go in round 2.
JFC.

Any time frame on that Ollie? Starting to wonder if the 14% cut and FLXF thing will end up actually saving any jobs at all. Just maybe G McG was right all along?
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Old 26th May 2020, 23:26
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Will seniority be applied? This is going to be an issue if QF starts redundancies.
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Old 26th May 2020, 23:39
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pundit View Post
Will seniority be applied? This is going to be an issue if QF starts redundancies.
Yes. Everyone who has been given notice is at the bottom of the list.
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Old 26th May 2020, 23:54
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Well, none of the Reps I’ve spoken to have heard anything along these lines so I’d suggest it’s come from an individual speculating, or perhaps someone with a close contact in exec who leaked a long term strategy. To my knowledge, there have been no recent union meetings with the Exec as they’re still working with CC and Engineers.

The timing is also suspicious. The inks barely dried on the AFFA, which combined with other voluntary measures, saved 91 jobs. As I said above, I’d suggest the Co. would be walking a very tight legal line to announce 100 redundancies on the back of signing agreements that spared 100 jobs.

Will there be a round 2? Possibly, but I’ll be extremely surprised if it happens so soon.
Again, that would be mostly Airbus FO’s and we haven’t even started to replace those already made redundant.

I could be wrong, time will tell, but I’ll be campaigning to throw the AFFA in the bin if the company do a bait and switch on us.

Lastly, while the down training appears absurd, the company refused voluntary offers from 40+ 777 Captains as it was too expensive and instead offered them a “bonus” to take early retirement, which most rejected.
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Old 27th May 2020, 01:02
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pundit View Post
Will seniority be applied? This is going to be an issue if QF starts redundancies.
I would think QF would hold of on those due to the massive cost involved.
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Old 27th May 2020, 01:46
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by waren9 View Post
JFC.

Any time frame on that Ollie? Starting to wonder if the 14% cut and FLXF thing will end up actually saving any jobs at all. Just maybe G McG was right all along?
Ollie must have a pretty reliable source considering he doesn't work for air nz.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:16
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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Thereís nothing in the AFFA to prevent further redundancies. The numbers would have to be based around 60hrs rather than optimal IP, as thatís what saved jobs.

It would be a down training disaster... Most F20s would be gone. Junior C20s would only have notional seniority to be SOs.

Fingers crossed it doesnít happen.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:29
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Inverted Flat Spin View Post
There’s nothing in the AFFA to prevent further redundancies. The numbers would have to be based around 60hrs rather than optimal IP, as that’s what saved jobs.

It would be a down training disaster... Most F20s would be gone. Junior C20s would only have notional seniority to be SOs.

Fingers crossed it doesn’t happen.
I'd say it all comes down to the timing. The AFFA states the following:

4.4 The parties acknowledge that this temporary Variation has been agreed as
part of considering alternatives to compulsory redundancies, and the parties
agree that as an outcome of this temporary Variation, any savings achieved
will be taken into consideration in determining the number and timing of any
redundancies including, but not limited to, the likely number of redundancies
will reduce by 74 pilots. At the time of ratification of this temporary Variation,
it is acknowledged by the parties that the final number of redundancies is still
to be confirmed.
A further 17 jobs were saved through voluntary measure which took the total to 91.

If Air NZ chops another 100 in 12 months time, I'd tend to agree, the AFFA doesn't prevent that. If they do so a month after the AFFA was signed however, I'd suggest the Company was not bargaining in good faith. Lets also not forget those who took early retirement, LWOP or 50% contracts on the basis it would save jobs as well.
The excuse that "things have changed" doesn't carry much weight in my opinion, as the depth of COVID was felt before the numbers were finalized. The Coalition stated a long time ago they planned to keep the borders closed long term (possibly until a Vaccine). If anything, things are improving slightly with talks of a Tasma/South Pacific bubble.

However, for now, this is mostly academic, as agree with your position. The Company gave us a notional list predicted on April 2021... it's only a week old (maybe 2?) and nothings changed in that time. Once the process starts, taking another swipe at the bottom will invalidate the entire process and they'll have to start again.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:43
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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This isn't a comment on the pros and cons of either countries workplace laws....

Air NZ must be looking across the Tasman with some jealousy at QF and the rest. Aussie airlines can just "stand down" everyone indefinitely on zero pay (unless I'm mistaken). Meanwhile Air NZ have been paying all their pilots at least 86% of their full time salary to do (in most cases) almost nothing. I have a friend over there who will lose their job at the end of July, they will not have worked a day for 12 weeks at the end of June, and the chance of them working in their last month close to zero. That's 16 weeks on full pay!

I know some people have commented that Air NZ moved quickly to get rid of people, but when you look at the above case you see their side of the argument.
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