Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Air NZ pilot redundancies

Old 27th May 2020, 02:29
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Inverted Flat Spin
There’s nothing in the AFFA to prevent further redundancies. The numbers would have to be based around 60hrs rather than optimal IP, as that’s what saved jobs.

It would be a down training disaster... Most F20s would be gone. Junior C20s would only have notional seniority to be SOs.

Fingers crossed it doesn’t happen.
I'd say it all comes down to the timing. The AFFA states the following:

4.4 The parties acknowledge that this temporary Variation has been agreed as
part of considering alternatives to compulsory redundancies, and the parties
agree that as an outcome of this temporary Variation, any savings achieved
will be taken into consideration in determining the number and timing of any
redundancies including, but not limited to, the likely number of redundancies
will reduce by 74 pilots. At the time of ratification of this temporary Variation,
it is acknowledged by the parties that the final number of redundancies is still
to be confirmed.
A further 17 jobs were saved through voluntary measure which took the total to 91.

If Air NZ chops another 100 in 12 months time, I'd tend to agree, the AFFA doesn't prevent that. If they do so a month after the AFFA was signed however, I'd suggest the Company was not bargaining in good faith. Lets also not forget those who took early retirement, LWOP or 50% contracts on the basis it would save jobs as well.
The excuse that "things have changed" doesn't carry much weight in my opinion, as the depth of COVID was felt before the numbers were finalized. The Coalition stated a long time ago they planned to keep the borders closed long term (possibly until a Vaccine). If anything, things are improving slightly with talks of a Tasma/South Pacific bubble.

However, for now, this is mostly academic, as agree with your position. The Company gave us a notional list predicted on April 2021... it's only a week old (maybe 2?) and nothings changed in that time. Once the process starts, taking another swipe at the bottom will invalidate the entire process and they'll have to start again.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:43
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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This isn't a comment on the pros and cons of either countries workplace laws....

Air NZ must be looking across the Tasman with some jealousy at QF and the rest. Aussie airlines can just "stand down" everyone indefinitely on zero pay (unless I'm mistaken). Meanwhile Air NZ have been paying all their pilots at least 86% of their full time salary to do (in most cases) almost nothing. I have a friend over there who will lose their job at the end of July, they will not have worked a day for 12 weeks at the end of June, and the chance of them working in their last month close to zero. That's 16 weeks on full pay!

I know some people have commented that Air NZ moved quickly to get rid of people, but when you look at the above case you see their side of the argument.
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Old 27th May 2020, 05:39
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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I agree. Air NZ has for the last decade been a nimble, creative and flexible example of excellence. I can only assume there is a reason why something like leave without pay wasn’t implemented. Considering the international recovery is going to be slow, you can’t help think they’ve missed a trick here.
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Old 27th May 2020, 05:57
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by crosscutter
I agree. Air NZ has for the last decade been a nimble, creative and flexible example of excellence. I can only assume there is a reason why something like leave without pay wasn’t implemented. Considering the international recovery is going to be slow, you can’t help think they’ve missed a trick here.
Because it’s against NZ employment law or they would have gladly stood down 90% of their workforce
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Old 27th May 2020, 06:06
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Originally Posted by NGsim
Because it’s against NZ employment law or they would have gladly stood down 90% of their workforce
I understand. I never mentioned the stand down provisions. Leave Without Pay is very much part of NZ employment law. It just has to be agreed to by both parties.

For one reason or another, it didn’t happen.

When borders re open it’s not going to be all nice and friendly between airlines. There is potentially going to be blood on the streets. You want to be in tip top shape for that day.

Last edited by crosscutter; 27th May 2020 at 06:20.
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Old 27th May 2020, 09:05
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NGsim
Because it’s against NZ employment law or they would have gladly stood down 90% of their workforce
Jetconnect and (I believe) Jetstar NZ would suggest otherwise.
I assume it has never found its way into the NZ eba because the need for it had never been envisaged.

Nobody wants to be on leave without pay, but other than a few of the most self entitled individuals, I'm sure most would agree that such a provision would be in the interests of the greater good right now.
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Old 27th May 2020, 09:28
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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Quite right I don’t work for them but do know people who are very senior managers and others who are union people. Just passing on info that has been told to me directly. I don’t work for anyone at the moment in aviation and may never again but hey that’s life.
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Old 27th May 2020, 13:03
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
Quite right I don’t work for them but do know people who are very senior managers and others who are union people. Just passing on info that has been told to me directly. I don’t work for anyone at the moment in aviation and may never again but hey that’s life.
Always enjoyed Ollie's contributions, personally may see things differently at times but FFS read the last four words "...but hey that's life"
Don't blame the universe for sh*t happening - deal with it as best you can....but never concede control.

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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 10:49
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Originally Posted by dctPub
Yea because they were told either you agree or we're closing the operation. Somehow I don't think that would work in air nz.
I wasn't told that. Nothing like it
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 21:43
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Originally Posted by crosscutter
I agree. Air NZ has for the last decade been a nimble, creative and flexible example of excellence. I can only assume there is a reason why something like leave without pay wasn’t implemented. Considering the international recovery is going to be slow, you can’t help think they’ve missed a trick here.
The international recovery is going to be extremely slow... Especially as seen with North America + Europe literally giving up on containment and reopening borders. USA and Europe still has widespread community transmission and no sign of that rectifying any time soon with the riots. I doubt NZ will have any form of North America passenger service even in 12 months.

Except there are some glimmers of hope that NZ could launch back into PVG/TPE first. Taiwan has had 3 new cases in roughly a month (similar to NZ/AU numbers and the much hyped 'Tasman Bubble'). Could we see PVG/TPE entering this bubble in the coming months? Australia released estimated dates that show the Tasman bubble reopening in one month, if that works well, there's no reason NZ couldn't launch daily PVG/TPE and drive international demand.

Speaking for myself on this one, as soon as they launch a new international destination, I want to be on that first plane for a holiday. I have AirNZ$$ (they kindly credited me ) so have to spend ASAP, otherwise it's going to be a lot of NPE returns to use it all up.

Originally Posted by Lepper Messiah
I wasn't told that. Nothing like it
VANZ were told that immediate LWOP may save the NZ operation. It did not.

Additionally, Air NZ Link pilots were told last week that forward bookings are better than expected and the schedule requires all 'hibernation' crew to be brought out and utilised. They had excess crew and could not keep everyone current, so some went into hibernation. Friends that work the Milford flights said that they're really busy and that NZMF airport was full over the weekend with Kiwi Tourists. Makes you wonder if the Air NZ Link redundancies will be brought back this side of Christmas.

And if demand really continues with domestic tourism increases so much, it makes you wonder whether some furloughed Jet guys might be offered contracts to help out the Links.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 22:07
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by InZed
Additionally, Air NZ Link pilots were told last week that forward bookings are better than expected and the schedule requires all 'hibernation' crew to be brought out and utilised. They had excess crew and could not keep everyone current, so some went into hibernation. Friends that work the Milford flights said that they're really busy and that NZMF airport was full over the weekend with Kiwi Tourists. Makes you wonder if the Air NZ Link redundancies will be brought back this side of Christmas.

And if demand really continues with domestic tourism increases so much, it makes you wonder whether some furloughed Jet guys might be offered contracts to help out the Links.
Supposedly Foran was in the Auckland regional crew room the other day saying July bookings are 80% better than they forecast. Fingers crossed it isn't just a post-lock down blip and it is kept up. Once socially distancing on planes is gone hopefully they can do some better deals and full the planes entirely.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 23:22
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by InZed
The international recovery is going to be extremely slow... Especially as seen with North America + Europe literally giving up on containment and reopening borders. USA and Europe still has widespread community transmission and no sign of that rectifying any time soon with the riots. I doubt NZ will have any form of North America passenger service even in 12 months.

Except there are some glimmers of hope that NZ could launch back into PVG/TPE first. Taiwan has had 3 new cases in roughly a month (similar to NZ/AU numbers and the much hyped 'Tasman Bubble'). Could we see PVG/TPE entering this bubble in the coming months? Australia released estimated dates that show the Tasman bubble reopening in one month, if that works well, there's no reason NZ couldn't launch daily PVG/TPE and drive international demand.

Speaking for myself on this one, as soon as they launch a new international destination, I want to be on that first plane for a holiday. I have AirNZ$$ (they kindly credited me ) so have to spend ASAP, otherwise it's going to be a lot of NPE returns to use it all up.


VANZ were told that immediate LWOP may save the NZ operation. It did not.

Additionally, Air NZ Link pilots were told last week that forward bookings are better than expected and the schedule requires all 'hibernation' crew to be brought out and utilised. They had excess crew and could not keep everyone current, so some went into hibernation. Friends that work the Milford flights said that they're really busy and that NZMF airport was full over the weekend with Kiwi Tourists. Makes you wonder if the Air NZ Link redundancies will be brought back this side of Christmas.

And if demand really continues with domestic tourism increases so much, it makes you wonder whether some furloughed Jet guys might be offered contracts to help out the Links.
Don’t jump the gun too much on the Link recovery. With level 1 likely next week and the removal of social distancing on flights things are looking promising. However, we haven’t seen the full brunt of unemployment in this country yet.

People are traveling around NZ for tourism but most will only be able to afford one or two trips a year. That won’t be sustainable to get the Link schedule anywhere near pre Covid with slip crewing in regional ports etc. Signs are good but talk of the few made redundant returning before Xmas or even recruiting Jet guys temporarily is extremely optimistic and hopefully those affected, if they’re reading this don’t get their hopes up needlessly.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 03:15
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
People are traveling around NZ for tourism but most will only be able to afford one or two trips a year. That won’t be sustainable to get the Link schedule anywhere near pre Covid with slip crewing in regional ports etc. Signs are good but talk of the few made redundant returning before Xmas or even recruiting Jet guys temporarily is extremely optimistic and hopefully those affected, if they’re reading this don’t get their hopes up needlessly.
Pre-COVID 60% of domestic pax were on an international journey. That's a lot of Kiwi's flying around domestically to make it back up!
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 01:16
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Greg Foran just sent out this... so more redundancies coming.

Today, we start Phase 2 to remove around $150 million additional from our wages bill as part of a suite of other changes to our cost base to put Air New Zealand in the shape to be able to meet our 800-day ambition for August 2022.

As soon as possible we will be engaging with you and your unions as we investigate how best to reduce the labour bill. We are open to explore all options with unions that help meet our cost saving goals, but I do want to be clear that we need to brace ourselves for more discussions around leave without pay, reduced hours, job share, voluntary exits with redundancies as the last option. Thinking this through carefully will be important so that as the airline regains more customers and routes we are ready to take that volume on. I am really sorry we are in a situation of needing to reduce our wages bills further, but I believe this is what we need to do with some urgency to get through the Survive phase.

...


As we Thrive we will not focus on size, but on quality. We will be smaller, flying fewer routes but we will not change our outstanding reputation for care, compassion and heart. The pride that comes with being our country’s national carrier.“
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 01:44
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Starting to look like Ollie Onions senior mgmnt/union sources may've been right
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 01:57
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Will there be any appetite to further the Flexi-Flying to say 70% or 50% as a collective to once again defer a number of redundancies?

A much harder sell for the unions this time round I think.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 02:08
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Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
Will there be any appetite to further the Flexi-Flying to say 70% or 50% as a collective to once again defer a number of redundancies?

A much harder sell for the unions this time round I think.
Given the 14% was voted up ay 95% I would say there is more appetite. Hard to quantify though.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 04:00
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Originally Posted by oldm8ey
Given the 14% was voted up ay 95% I would say there is more appetite. Hard to quantify though.
Makes you wonder if the unions knew there would be deeper cuts to begin with, so just started with a 14% pay cut. I will expect to see the SLT take a further cut before pilots do though.

Does anyone know the news on the NZ engineers? They've managed to avoid all media it appears.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 04:07
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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All as I can say the information I got came from someone very senior and this looks to be the ground work for those cuts. I am hoping that there is enough flex and willingness in the workforce (not just pilots) to get the gains required to reduce those proposed losses to zero. Pilot terms and conditions in ALL airlines will take a while to recover back to 2019 levels.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 04:11
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Originally Posted by InZed
Greg Foran just sent out this... so more redundancies coming.

Today, we start Phase 2 to remove around $150 million additional from our wages bill as part of a suite of other changes to our cost base to put Air New Zealand in the shape to be able to meet our 800-day ambition for August 2022.

As soon as possible we will be engaging with you and your unions as we investigate how best to reduce the labour bill. We are open to explore all options with unions that help meet our cost saving goals, but I do want to be clear that we need to brace ourselves for more discussions around leave without pay, reduced hours, job share, voluntary exits with redundancies as the last option. Thinking this through carefully will be important so that as the airline regains more customers and routes we are ready to take that volume on. I am really sorry we are in a situation of needing to reduce our wages bills further, but I believe this is what we need to do with some urgency to get through the Survive phase.

...


As we Thrive we will not focus on size, but on quality. We will be smaller, flying fewer routes but we will not change our outstanding reputation for care, compassion and heart. The pride that comes with being our country’s national carrier.“
One word: Walmart!
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