A DEBATE THAT MUST BE HAD
They don't come any straighter than him.
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Gentlemen, the issue is far wider than VA or QF and it extends back beyond the formation of VA. Like most things in Australia it arose out of the USA in the late 1970s and into the 1980s'. It was the change from 'stakeholder capitalism' to 'shareholder capitalism'. Under the former all stakeholders in a corporation were regarded as interests that had to be protected as far as it was possible. When you take into account that your workforce is a stakeholder and protecting them had the result of keeping the share price lower than it could be.
Then an insidious change occurred primarily due to the activities of certain corporate raiders who mounted hostile takeovers. Seeing corporations with a good asset sheet but depressed share price was like a shark smelling blood. They were able to buy these corporations using borrowed money, transfer the debt to the purchase, strip the assets and sell the remaining shell. This was the rise of shareholder capitalism where the only consideration was the shareholder which meant anything to keep the share price high as possible. It was under this change that you had the majority of government assets sold off - it seemed a good idea at the time.
The upshot of this change is that you have a business elite pressing the government for ever more benefits for the corporation - not the employees who can go hang if necessary. Its why you hear conservative governments around the world calling for tax breaks for companies and high income earners based on the bovine excreta reasoning that it will trickle down. It never has - it never will. Why is the economic stimulus going to pensioners and benefit recipients - because they will spend it. The government was backed into a corner because it knew the stimulus had to be effective. Give it to corporations and all they will do is buy back their shares thus artificially inflating the value of the company and putting the CEO in line for his/her bonus.
So, VA is doing nothing new. QF with its Chaimans Lounge has been doing it for decades. Every major corporation in Australia glad hands the politicians in one way or another. We allow it, its legal, its business as it is practiced today. The most egregious cases sometimes trip over the line and they get their hands smacked but until the public wake up and demand fundamental change it will continue.
Then an insidious change occurred primarily due to the activities of certain corporate raiders who mounted hostile takeovers. Seeing corporations with a good asset sheet but depressed share price was like a shark smelling blood. They were able to buy these corporations using borrowed money, transfer the debt to the purchase, strip the assets and sell the remaining shell. This was the rise of shareholder capitalism where the only consideration was the shareholder which meant anything to keep the share price high as possible. It was under this change that you had the majority of government assets sold off - it seemed a good idea at the time.
The upshot of this change is that you have a business elite pressing the government for ever more benefits for the corporation - not the employees who can go hang if necessary. Its why you hear conservative governments around the world calling for tax breaks for companies and high income earners based on the bovine excreta reasoning that it will trickle down. It never has - it never will. Why is the economic stimulus going to pensioners and benefit recipients - because they will spend it. The government was backed into a corner because it knew the stimulus had to be effective. Give it to corporations and all they will do is buy back their shares thus artificially inflating the value of the company and putting the CEO in line for his/her bonus.
So, VA is doing nothing new. QF with its Chaimans Lounge has been doing it for decades. Every major corporation in Australia glad hands the politicians in one way or another. We allow it, its legal, its business as it is practiced today. The most egregious cases sometimes trip over the line and they get their hands smacked but until the public wake up and demand fundamental change it will continue.
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Companies need to get a grip. Pay your front line staff. Then your overheads. Then pay your management. If there is anything spare, which lets face it in this industry there won't be, pay your shareholders. It's the shareholders own fault for investing in an unprofitable industry that's run by gangsters. Rant over 
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And in an industry which is so focused on hazard identification and risk management, when we look at the warnings to governments about virus pandemics, and the lack of action, how will we hold elected representatives to account?
As many have said and experienced finding oneself out of work is disastrous.
This is so much worse than Ansett as every industry is collapsing. How hard is it going to be to get a job?
Then add in the frustration of not doing what you love to do.
The world has changed, hopefully very temporararily.
Who gives a fcuk who you work for, support each other. Have a google at how many airlines around the world are on the brink, how many staff are out of work, it filters right down and this is only one industry.
What can be done??? What will be done??? But remember we are all one, we all breathe and I for one want everyone to continue to breathe. If ya see someone down, ask the question, suicidal is a final hole.....
Rant well and truly over but stand together!
This is so much worse than Ansett as every industry is collapsing. How hard is it going to be to get a job?
Then add in the frustration of not doing what you love to do.
The world has changed, hopefully very temporararily.
Who gives a fcuk who you work for, support each other. Have a google at how many airlines around the world are on the brink, how many staff are out of work, it filters right down and this is only one industry.
What can be done??? What will be done??? But remember we are all one, we all breathe and I for one want everyone to continue to breathe. If ya see someone down, ask the question, suicidal is a final hole.....
Rant well and truly over but stand together!
I am flabbergasted by the delight some posters are taking in the possible demise of airlines, or worst still, fleets within their own airline.
We are all in this together, we should be supporting each other in any way we can, and on the other side of this, we should be trying to make sure as many of our colleagues retain their jobs as we can.
Have some compassion for our Tiger friends, they are the first of many in Australia unfortunately, worldwide it has been happening since December . These guys and girls have struggled in their careers in the same way the rest of us struggled, GA, regionals etc. it’s not a time to judge them and their choices.
No pilot ever set out to destroy the career of another. We all just wanted to achieve the flying goals and dreams we had when we started on this crazy journey. Sometimes, that took a different path to what we thought, taking us to places we may not have wanted to go, but out of that we made lifelong friends, memories and had experiences that we will carry for the rest of our lives.
Now more than ever, it’s time to reach out to a fellow pilot that has had their wings clipped, check in on your mates. Pass on any information you learn about anything, Mortgage relief, Centrelink stuff, Casual work, Money saving tips, a new recipe, whatever it is, it could help. More importantly, help them understand they are not alone.
The threat is hanging over all of us, maybe the feelings you have toward others are being fed by the fear of the unknown? Take some time to work through your own thoughts and feelings, and if you still have a job at this point, you are one of the lucky ones.
No one group of pilots are responsible for the financial state of the company they work for, we fly the aeroplanes to the SOP’s we are given, and do what we can to do that as efficiently as possible.
The aviation industry will look very different on the other side of this.
Be kind to yourself, and be kind to each other.
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Ya gotta hand it to the cunning little Leprechaun, his job is to get the best deal for the company and of course himself thru any means available (sucker Govt for Eg) and he's very good at it!
We all thought '98 was a game changer but this global disaster will change the face of aviation forever and in the CEO's favour!
Best of luck to the many who are now irreversibly effected! -(
We all thought '98 was a game changer but this global disaster will change the face of aviation forever and in the CEO's favour!
Best of luck to the many who are now irreversibly effected! -(
Last edited by machtuk; 26th Mar 2020 at 01:26.
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Yikes , Sunfish. There you go again........
Qantas was fully privatised in 1997. Maybe you would prefer it to be re-nationalised ?
Until such time it will behave as commercial enterprise.
Where does your obsession with QF come from?
Refused an upgrade?
Qantas was fully privatised in 1997. Maybe you would prefer it to be re-nationalised ?
Until such time it will behave as commercial enterprise.
Where does your obsession with QF come from?
Refused an upgrade?
Thread Starter
Sorry, Sunfish, but Qantas has been, by the proverbial country mile, Australia's only truly National airline in most Australians' lifetime. On the other hand, weren't the terrible domestic twins (AN and TN) considered Melbourne-centric with their Head Offices cheek by jowl and staff guilty of much collusion and skullduggery in nearby pubs and parks? We are living in 2020 in the 21st century.
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So much bull**** point scoring and finger pointing is getting posted here in difficult times. You know what - it all doesnt matter anymore.
Things look gloomy. But we are a very resilient and very adaptable lot. We will get through this and the sun will continue to rise every morning.
You may not look at it this way at the moment and I am sorry if what I am about to say may be hard to take for some who are facing very difficult financial circumstances right at this moment in time. But for many, they will look back at this time in the rear view mirror and will think that being made redundant was the best thing that happened to them. It can be the spark that forces you out of your comfort zone and into doing something that you always wanted to do or something that you are really good at - rather than just keep turning running on the same treadmill. If you can, look at this as an opportunity.
All the best to everyone. Keep the head up.
Things look gloomy. But we are a very resilient and very adaptable lot. We will get through this and the sun will continue to rise every morning.
You may not look at it this way at the moment and I am sorry if what I am about to say may be hard to take for some who are facing very difficult financial circumstances right at this moment in time. But for many, they will look back at this time in the rear view mirror and will think that being made redundant was the best thing that happened to them. It can be the spark that forces you out of your comfort zone and into doing something that you always wanted to do or something that you are really good at - rather than just keep turning running on the same treadmill. If you can, look at this as an opportunity.
All the best to everyone. Keep the head up.
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Camel...go away....
Ken...yeah I get the idea of a National Carrier, but I have NEVER supported or patronised it's service since the 2011 fiasco...despite a looong family history, they are no longer deserving of my support. The lack of my support won't hurt them. Thae fact that I spread my lack of support will not hurt them either. So continue on QF, as you were, as it were, and you will slowly garner less & less support....but who cares you have Chairmans club benefits to dole out to our substandard politicians...
Still it makes me proud to avoid QF wherever possible! Not an affront to the regular staff, despite very few of which have made a lovely contribution to the experience, the majority of which have not...I get that Boys & Girls
....but you should also count yourselves lucky you do not work at Woolworths....oh wait
Ken...yeah I get the idea of a National Carrier, but I have NEVER supported or patronised it's service since the 2011 fiasco...despite a looong family history, they are no longer deserving of my support. The lack of my support won't hurt them. Thae fact that I spread my lack of support will not hurt them either. So continue on QF, as you were, as it were, and you will slowly garner less & less support....but who cares you have Chairmans club benefits to dole out to our substandard politicians...
Still it makes me proud to avoid QF wherever possible! Not an affront to the regular staff, despite very few of which have made a lovely contribution to the experience, the majority of which have not...I get that Boys & Girls
....but you should also count yourselves lucky you do not work at Woolworths....oh wait
Ken, Qantas is NOT a national airline. It is a Sydney based International carrier with no allegiance to any country except when it suits it.
The classic, glaring, sheer bloody obviousness of this fact is available to view on the Qantas EBA thread on Pprune as late as 3rd March.
Qantas was threatening it’s Long Haul pilots that if they didn’t agree to EBA10 then Qantas would buy new LH aircraft and fly them in a new non Australian entity!
Yet today, Qantas has its hand up for a government bail out claiming to be an Australian f@34ing icon like a Koala bear!
QANTAS CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!
Furthermore, Qantas has outsourced all its maintenance and overhaul overseas. It employs foreign cabin crew where possible and does everything else it can to minimise exposure to Australian labor costs.
Therefore it is NOT an Australian airline, except when it suits.
My objection to Qantas is also economic. Direct international flights are critical to regional development because overseas investors and customers want fast direct access to industry. Qantas, if it were a national airline, would arrange its schedules to avoid favouring Sydney over other Australian Capitals. It does no such thing.
Then look at its domestic vandalism. International Tourism in Noosa and Hamilton Island was killed when the Qantas flights to Maroochydore and Hammy were substituted with Jetstar just ask them.
Qantas contributes nothing to Australia whatsoever except local jobs that are worth less than the car industry we had. I guess Holden, Toyota and Nissan wouldn’t have been “let go” if they had Chairman’s lounges.
As for the Chairman’s lounge, I hope it’s turned into a Coronavirus hotbed. It’s sheer bribery.
QANTAS EA10 BUSTED.......A SECRET RIN
The classic, glaring, sheer bloody obviousness of this fact is available to view on the Qantas EBA thread on Pprune as late as 3rd March.
Qantas was threatening it’s Long Haul pilots that if they didn’t agree to EBA10 then Qantas would buy new LH aircraft and fly them in a new non Australian entity!
Yet today, Qantas has its hand up for a government bail out claiming to be an Australian f@34ing icon like a Koala bear!
QANTAS CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!
Furthermore, Qantas has outsourced all its maintenance and overhaul overseas. It employs foreign cabin crew where possible and does everything else it can to minimise exposure to Australian labor costs.
Therefore it is NOT an Australian airline, except when it suits.
My objection to Qantas is also economic. Direct international flights are critical to regional development because overseas investors and customers want fast direct access to industry. Qantas, if it were a national airline, would arrange its schedules to avoid favouring Sydney over other Australian Capitals. It does no such thing.
Then look at its domestic vandalism. International Tourism in Noosa and Hamilton Island was killed when the Qantas flights to Maroochydore and Hammy were substituted with Jetstar just ask them.
Qantas contributes nothing to Australia whatsoever except local jobs that are worth less than the car industry we had. I guess Holden, Toyota and Nissan wouldn’t have been “let go” if they had Chairman’s lounges.
As for the Chairman’s lounge, I hope it’s turned into a Coronavirus hotbed. It’s sheer bribery.
QANTAS EA10 BUSTED.......A SECRET RIN
Nunc est bibendum
Not entirely correct. It was to be an external entity to the current mainline pilots. It wasn’t necessarily going to be a foreign one. I’m quite sure it didn’t need to be.
The mention of ‘Chinese pilots’ at the time was in reference to the many expats flying for the various China Southern, Eastern, etc returning to Australia to fly for Qantas in this ‘external entity’.
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Sunfish , instead of another rant bleating about some perceived injustice , has it ever occurred to you that there is another explanation ?
QF mainline withdrew from Maroochydore because nobody was paying fully fare Business Class. Maybe you were one of them ? Same at Gold Coast. And until recently Hobart. No conspiracy required. QF hubs out of Sydney , not just for historical reasons , but because that’s how you fill a B747 or A380.Once demand grew direct Melbourne- LAX , and Brisbane- LAX were ,in fact , commenced . Again no conspiracy required. No “vandalism” either.
QF does not have a social obligation to provide mainline services to anywhere you see fit. Its a business.
Holden went bust because management couldn’t justify the investment required to develop a new product line in a market that had lost interest in its current line . Again no conspiracy required. QF would go the same way if hard decisions aren’t made.
Its a big bad world out there. Frothing at the mouth diatribes don’t change reality.
QF mainline withdrew from Maroochydore because nobody was paying fully fare Business Class. Maybe you were one of them ? Same at Gold Coast. And until recently Hobart. No conspiracy required. QF hubs out of Sydney , not just for historical reasons , but because that’s how you fill a B747 or A380.Once demand grew direct Melbourne- LAX , and Brisbane- LAX were ,in fact , commenced . Again no conspiracy required. No “vandalism” either.
QF does not have a social obligation to provide mainline services to anywhere you see fit. Its a business.
Holden went bust because management couldn’t justify the investment required to develop a new product line in a market that had lost interest in its current line . Again no conspiracy required. QF would go the same way if hard decisions aren’t made.
Its a big bad world out there. Frothing at the mouth diatribes don’t change reality.
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Ken, Qantas is NOT a national airline. It is a Sydney based International carrier with no allegiance to any country except when it suits it.
The classic, glaring, sheer bloody obviousness of this fact is available to view on the Qantas EBA thread on Pprune as late as 3rd March.
Qantas was threatening it’s Long Haul pilots that if they didn’t agree to EBA10 then Qantas would buy new LH aircraft and fly them in a new non Australian entity!
Yet today, Qantas has its hand up for a government bail out claiming to be an Australian f@34ing icon like a Koala bear!
QANTAS CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!
Furthermore, Qantas has outsourced all its maintenance and overhaul overseas. It employs foreign cabin crew where possible and does everything else it can to minimise exposure to Australian labor costs.
Therefore it is NOT an Australian airline, except when it suits.
My objection to Qantas is also economic. Direct international flights are critical to regional development because overseas investors and customers want fast direct access to industry. Qantas, if it were a national airline, would arrange its schedules to avoid favouring Sydney over other Australian Capitals. It does no such thing.
Then look at its domestic vandalism. International Tourism in Noosa and Hamilton Island was killed when the Qantas flights to Maroochydore and Hammy were substituted with Jetstar just ask them.
Qantas contributes nothing to Australia whatsoever except local jobs that are worth less than the car industry we had. I guess Holden, Toyota and Nissan wouldn’t have been “let go” if they had Chairman’s lounges.
As for the Chairman’s lounge, I hope it’s turned into a Coronavirus hotbed. It’s sheer bribery.
QANTAS EA10 BUSTED.......A SECRET RIN
The classic, glaring, sheer bloody obviousness of this fact is available to view on the Qantas EBA thread on Pprune as late as 3rd March.
Qantas was threatening it’s Long Haul pilots that if they didn’t agree to EBA10 then Qantas would buy new LH aircraft and fly them in a new non Australian entity!
Yet today, Qantas has its hand up for a government bail out claiming to be an Australian f@34ing icon like a Koala bear!
QANTAS CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!
Furthermore, Qantas has outsourced all its maintenance and overhaul overseas. It employs foreign cabin crew where possible and does everything else it can to minimise exposure to Australian labor costs.
Therefore it is NOT an Australian airline, except when it suits.
My objection to Qantas is also economic. Direct international flights are critical to regional development because overseas investors and customers want fast direct access to industry. Qantas, if it were a national airline, would arrange its schedules to avoid favouring Sydney over other Australian Capitals. It does no such thing.
Then look at its domestic vandalism. International Tourism in Noosa and Hamilton Island was killed when the Qantas flights to Maroochydore and Hammy were substituted with Jetstar just ask them.
Qantas contributes nothing to Australia whatsoever except local jobs that are worth less than the car industry we had. I guess Holden, Toyota and Nissan wouldn’t have been “let go” if they had Chairman’s lounges.
As for the Chairman’s lounge, I hope it’s turned into a Coronavirus hotbed. It’s sheer bribery.
QANTAS EA10 BUSTED.......A SECRET RIN
Glass:
Correct. It’s a business. It is not worth bailing out because it’s no more Australian than McDonalds by its own admission.
QF does not have a social obligation to provide mainline services to anywhere you see fit. Its a business.
Correct. It’s a business. It is not worth bailing out because it’s no more Australian than McDonalds by its own admission.
And then when we have seen off C-19, we would be reliant on foreign carriers to provide all airline services to the whole of Australia. How do you think that would work out in regional areas if the regional carriers were reliant on on-carraige agreements with overseas airlines with nothing other than commercial interests? What do you think the airfares would look like when foreign carriers are not constrained in any way, shape or form by the ACCC or anyone else?
You may not like Qantas' Sydney centric position but the alternative of no Australian national carriers is far worse.
Okay, Alan Joyce is right. Virgin management or the lack of proper management has put them in a position where they will not survive without government intervention. No argument about that. Are we ready for another dose of what happened when Qantas had a virtual monopoly on the domestic market? Ansett collapse and a very weak Virgin ring a bell? That's what Alan really wants, to be the sole player. To ensure competition the government really has to prop Virgin up. The only way to do this would be to bring back the regulation of air jtravel, i.e. the 2 airline system. Sack the Virgin board, they're oxygen thieves. Appoint an Administrator and make them account for every public cent. Make Qantas account for every public cent as well.