Alan vs VA
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Rod Sims weighs in on Virgin Australia stoush with Qantas, calling for 'cooperative spirit'
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...as-coronavirus
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...as-coronavirus
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He will be squirming in his seat now. Virgin has asked more a loan of Canberra and has entered a trading halt.
Now is his time to shine. What length will this fella go to now to have this blocked and Virgin crumble. The bloke appears to have no limits.
Now is his time to shine. What length will this fella go to now to have this blocked and Virgin crumble. The bloke appears to have no limits.
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Might be different if Virgin had asked for the loan purely because of COVID and was otherwise in good financial health, but the reality is that there are significant structural problems that go way beyond corona virus alone.
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Qantas should not be including Jetstar. Qantas mainline vs Virgin Mainline would be a fair comparison, no more than a $2b payout.
perhaps they should only be given a loan, to enable them to return to the cash balance position pre corona, once they are fully operational. Then it’s just a corona impact loan.
Might be different if Virgin had asked for the loan purely because of COVID and was otherwise in good financial health, but the reality is that there are significant structural problems that go way beyond corona virus alone.
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There are 1,570,505,939 shares in Qantas about. If the shareholders kicked in $1 per share that they own, or $2 per share, then perhaps the Aust Govt would not have to.
If the shareholders aren't prepared to kick in their own money, (it is their company by the way), why should the taxpayer?
Ditto with VA.
Not to mention repayment of bonuses paid to the execs. It might be nice to see some effort from the top of the company food chain as well.
If the shareholders aren't prepared to kick in their own money, (it is their company by the way), why should the taxpayer?
Ditto with VA.
Not to mention repayment of bonuses paid to the execs. It might be nice to see some effort from the top of the company food chain as well.
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There are 1,570,505,939 shares in Qantas about. If the shareholders kicked in $1 per share that they own, or $2 per share, then perhaps the Aust Govt would not have to.
If the shareholders aren't prepared to kick in their own money, (it is their company by the way), why should the taxpayer?
Ditto with VA.
Not to mention repayment of bonuses paid to the execs. It might be nice to see some effort from the top of the company food chain as well.
If the shareholders aren't prepared to kick in their own money, (it is their company by the way), why should the taxpayer?
Ditto with VA.
Not to mention repayment of bonuses paid to the execs. It might be nice to see some effort from the top of the company food chain as well.
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As much as I dislike the unlikable character that is Alan Joyce, from a neutral's perspective I can see his point. Is it in the taxpayer's interest to bail out a company that simply couldn't make money for the past 8 years? Do they make a good business case? In times of economic Armageddon, it has a cleansing effect. That is, the companies were hanging by a thread were always going to be wiped out. I am definitely not against VA and I really am fond of the brand, but as a company I'm not sure it's worth saving. Why should the taxpayer bail out a company owned by foreign investors? If it was a 100% Australian owned company, then perhaps it would be worth saving. But what, just so that the investors can cover their losses and maybe it will limp along? I would much rather the government helps the employees that have been loyal to the company to this point and ensure that they have some sort of future.
I really don't want to see Virgin go or the employees suffer from this, but I think sensible decisions are required.
As for AJ, I hope that the government doesn't give him a cent.
I really don't want to see Virgin go or the employees suffer from this, but I think sensible decisions are required.
As for AJ, I hope that the government doesn't give him a cent.
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Qantas don’t want the bailout, that’s the whole point of Joyce’s stance. He’s just trying to muddy the waters to try and stop virgin getting a bailout, causing them to collapse, and QF having a monopoly.
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edit my bold added to denote quote addition as per Capn Bloggs noted below. Apologies to ECAM, I wan't attempting to deliberately misquote or mis-represent them.
I suspect that is the AJ strategy. It will be much easier to justify once a substantial period of time has elapsed. "We bunkered down for 12 months without cashflow using our own cash reserves, how long can we be expected to do that?"
I suspect that is the AJ strategy. It will be much easier to justify once a substantial period of time has elapsed. "We bunkered down for 12 months without cashflow using our own cash reserves, how long can we be expected to do that?"
Last edited by CurtainTwitcher; 31st Mar 2020 at 03:55. Reason: quote modified noted
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Bare in mind that government bailouts come with strings attached, such as no dividend payments which is the case with the Air NZ bailout, which Joyce wouldn’t want.
$4 billion in cash and loans and now the government subsiding their wage bill to the tune of $45 million a fortnight for at least the next 6 months, I genuinely think QF think they can ride this out without government intervention.
I read in a article that qantas’ leasing bill is $300 million a month, which would suggest to me that they can last the distance, not sure how reputable that figure is though.
$4 billion in cash and loans and now the government subsiding their wage bill to the tune of $45 million a fortnight for at least the next 6 months, I genuinely think QF think they can ride this out without government intervention.
I read in a article that qantas’ leasing bill is $300 million a month, which would suggest to me that they can last the distance, not sure how reputable that figure is though.
Qantas don’t want the bailout, that’s the whole point of Joyce’s stance. He’s just trying to muddy the waters to try and stop virgin getting a bailout, causing them to collapse, and QF having a monopoly.
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Let Qantas get the $4billion+ bailout... It's still a loan. That'll bring Qantas's debt to over 10billion. More of a publicity stunt, particularly as they don't need it as they have the ability to reach another $4billion in loans without government assistance.
Virgin will likely be nationalised as they cannot service this loan. Qantas will be able to service theirs. Either way, I see VA will come out more favoured.
Virgin will likely be nationalised as they cannot service this loan. Qantas will be able to service theirs. Either way, I see VA will come out more favoured.
short flights long nights
Let Qantas get the $4billion+ bailout... It's still a loan. That'll bring Qantas's debt to over 10billion. More of a publicity stunt, particularly as they don't need it as they have the ability to reach another $4billion in loans without government assistance.
Virgin will likely be nationalised as they cannot service this loan. Qantas will be able to service theirs. Either way, I see VA will come out more favoured.
Virgin will likely be nationalised as they cannot service this loan. Qantas will be able to service theirs. Either way, I see VA will come out more favoured.
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Who knows... "There is speculation a bailout could involve the Government becoming a part-owner, but Treasurer Josh Frydenberg has not ruled that in or out... "The government has made it very clear we support a sustainable, viable aviation sector... we believe having two airlines in Australia is a good thing" (Treasurer Josh Frydenburg).
"TWU national secretary Michael Kaine said the Federal Government should take a stake in domestic airlines and impose strict conditions on executive pay. It is just a short few years since the Qantas CEO was walking the corridors of Parliament House in Canberra, cap in hand, looking for a bailout following the disastrous decisions he made, including engaging in a price war with Virgin," Mr Kaine said. He now says Qantas doesn't need a bailout but spits the dummy when Virgin seeks one".
Joyce was about to leave Qantas after their 100th birthday at their highest share price ever (like most CEOs like to do). However, COVID-19 has ruined those plans. The only way to get the share price close to what it was recently is for VA to fold and therefore Qantas to recover more quickly than under the circumstances should VA stay. He'll either have to stay and get Qantas out of this mess, preferably to him with VA gone, or leave on a low.
Both VA (if they stay) and QF will recover as smaller airlines than before, for the short-medium term. With 40% of Qantas's revenue coming from international, this could take longer. Air NZ has already announced they will recover as a smaller airline, focusing away from long-haul and more on short-haul travel.
"Mr Foran said it was possible Air New Zealand would emerge from the crisis as a “much smaller airline”, saying it could be years before the carrier returned to its current size. Air New Zealand of pre-COVID-19 employed 12,500 people around the world. Clearly, we will be smaller for some time and we will need fewer staff. We expect that even in a year’s time we will be at least 30 per cent smaller than we are today, he said. Therefore we are planning to be a domestic airline with limited international services to keep supply lines open for the foreseeable future.”
I feel VA and QF will receive something. What ever that is remains to be seen!
"TWU national secretary Michael Kaine said the Federal Government should take a stake in domestic airlines and impose strict conditions on executive pay. It is just a short few years since the Qantas CEO was walking the corridors of Parliament House in Canberra, cap in hand, looking for a bailout following the disastrous decisions he made, including engaging in a price war with Virgin," Mr Kaine said. He now says Qantas doesn't need a bailout but spits the dummy when Virgin seeks one".
Joyce was about to leave Qantas after their 100th birthday at their highest share price ever (like most CEOs like to do). However, COVID-19 has ruined those plans. The only way to get the share price close to what it was recently is for VA to fold and therefore Qantas to recover more quickly than under the circumstances should VA stay. He'll either have to stay and get Qantas out of this mess, preferably to him with VA gone, or leave on a low.
Both VA (if they stay) and QF will recover as smaller airlines than before, for the short-medium term. With 40% of Qantas's revenue coming from international, this could take longer. Air NZ has already announced they will recover as a smaller airline, focusing away from long-haul and more on short-haul travel.
"Mr Foran said it was possible Air New Zealand would emerge from the crisis as a “much smaller airline”, saying it could be years before the carrier returned to its current size. Air New Zealand of pre-COVID-19 employed 12,500 people around the world. Clearly, we will be smaller for some time and we will need fewer staff. We expect that even in a year’s time we will be at least 30 per cent smaller than we are today, he said. Therefore we are planning to be a domestic airline with limited international services to keep supply lines open for the foreseeable future.”
I feel VA and QF will receive something. What ever that is remains to be seen!
We have a government that is ideologically opposed to spending money but is being forced by circumstances to spend billions on healthcare, bailing out hundreds of thousands of workers, bailing out the regional airline industry, and a large stimulus to get people spending when this is all over. I don’t think they are willing to spend unless it’s a necessity.
Ensuring two airline groups exist in the country won’t be high on the agenda of this government in current times.