QANTAS EA10 BUSTED.......A SECRET RIN
On the real forum it is essentially the same handful of posters writing negatively about the deal apparently cut between the company and the union. A lot of group think occuring, with some essentially indicating they’ll vote no simply due to the nature of how it’s taken place rather than the details of the deal itself. Some of the figures that are being quoted, and claims being made, simply beggars belief.
Hopefully the overwhelming majority - who don’t post on the forum - do better due diligence in looking at the deal when it’s presented and vote accordingly.
Hopefully the overwhelming majority - who don’t post on the forum - do better due diligence in looking at the deal when it’s presented and vote accordingly.
If there’s no replacement aircraft then mass demotions and redundancies will occur.
If there are new aircraft coming then those current 747/380 FOs and SOs will be able to get pay rises with promotions that will occur when the new aircraft arrive. The only ones who will be disadvantaged will be 747/380 Captains, but so many are close to retirement. It’ll take a few years for the whole situation to sort itself out, but by that stage a good chunk of current 4 engined Captains will have retired
Is anybody really going to sink the opportunity to fly the Sunrise aircraft which will benefit the vast majority of pilots because of that?
Last edited by dr dre; 2nd Mar 2020 at 00:13.
Well said TheStigEA10!
Your post has sure shaken many of the management moles out of the tree (as if there was any doubt about Qantas management directly interfering and posing in these Forums)!
We need more investigative posts like yours to uncover the strategy and likely effects of the management's "Cunning Plan".
Surely someone can find out the future fleet types purchase and sale plan? Everything hinges on that and is the reason for the structure of the offer.
FWIW I see a blatant money grab from the pilots which is lined with lots of broken glass and barbed wire. And all is being disguised as a "Project Somewhere over the Rainbow" plan.
This EA has far more reaching consequences then many realize.
Your post has sure shaken many of the management moles out of the tree (as if there was any doubt about Qantas management directly interfering and posing in these Forums)!
We need more investigative posts like yours to uncover the strategy and likely effects of the management's "Cunning Plan".
Surely someone can find out the future fleet types purchase and sale plan? Everything hinges on that and is the reason for the structure of the offer.
FWIW I see a blatant money grab from the pilots which is lined with lots of broken glass and barbed wire. And all is being disguised as a "Project Somewhere over the Rainbow" plan.
This EA has far more reaching consequences then many realize.
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What legacy conditions will be left to protect after a No vote when the 747 is gone next year, the 380 won’t be around for much longer and the 330 after that?
If there’s no replacement aircraft then mass demotions and redundancies will occur.
If there are new aircraft coming then those current 747/380 FOs and SOs will be able to get pay rises with promotions that will occur when the new aircraft arrive. The only ones who will be disadvantaged will be 747/380 Captains, but so many are close to retirement. It’ll take a few years for the whole situation to sort itself out, but by that stage a good chunk of current 4 engined Captains will have retired
Is anybody really going to sink the opportunity to fly Sunrise because a small proportion of 380/747 Captains may potentially be RIN’d to a two engined aircraft and suffer a slight loss of pay for a few years at the end of their careers?
If there’s no replacement aircraft then mass demotions and redundancies will occur.
If there are new aircraft coming then those current 747/380 FOs and SOs will be able to get pay rises with promotions that will occur when the new aircraft arrive. The only ones who will be disadvantaged will be 747/380 Captains, but so many are close to retirement. It’ll take a few years for the whole situation to sort itself out, but by that stage a good chunk of current 4 engined Captains will have retired
Is anybody really going to sink the opportunity to fly Sunrise because a small proportion of 380/747 Captains may potentially be RIN’d to a two engined aircraft and suffer a slight loss of pay for a few years at the end of their careers?
This entire post about a RIN is flawed. The whiners on qrewroom complaining about a RIN are also flawed and misguided.
They think a RIN will happen with a YES vote?
Wait till they vote NO, and a 350 is setup under a new entity. Qantas (and the mass NO voters) have said the 350 will replace the 380.
What do they think will happen when the 380 is retired and there is no 350 in mainline? RINd to the 787.
In both occasions a YES or NO vote has a good result of the 380 pilots being RIN'd. And yet they still try to use this is a valid argument for voting NO.
Unbelieveable !
Well said TheStigEA10!
Your post has sure shaken many of the management moles out of the tree (as if there was any doubt about Qantas management directly interfering and posing in these Forums)!
We need more investigative posts like yours to uncover the strategy and likely effects of the management's "Cunning Plan".
Surely someone can find out the future fleet types purchase and sale plan? Everything hinges on that and is the reason for the structure of the offer.
FWIW I see a blatant money grab from the pilots which is lined with lots of broken glass and barbed wire. And all is being disguised as a "Project Somewhere over the Rainbow" plan.
This EA has far more reaching consequences then many realize.
Your post has sure shaken many of the management moles out of the tree (as if there was any doubt about Qantas management directly interfering and posing in these Forums)!
We need more investigative posts like yours to uncover the strategy and likely effects of the management's "Cunning Plan".
Surely someone can find out the future fleet types purchase and sale plan? Everything hinges on that and is the reason for the structure of the offer.
FWIW I see a blatant money grab from the pilots which is lined with lots of broken glass and barbed wire. And all is being disguised as a "Project Somewhere over the Rainbow" plan.
This EA has far more reaching consequences then many realize.
See above. Flawed logic and a nonsense argument to scare voters into voting NO.
Fast forward 15+ years, when the A350 is the legacy airframe and you’ll probably be arguing with the junior pilots (who are now in primary school by the way) about why it’s not a good idea to pay for your own training or some such nonsense and they’ll all be calling you old and out of touch, and how the “A350 and legacy T&Cs are on the way out.”
...and my transformation into Grandpa Simpson is complete!
Having said that, I agree that we need to separate the deal and the emotion surrounding it. I personally hate the way it’s been conducted, NS is a company shill who can drink alone for the rest of his life as far as I’m concerned BUT I have zero doubt that the company will set up an external agency REGARDLESS of the cost to get it’s way. Sometimes a strategic withdrawal is better than dying on the hill.
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I agree ruprecht.
I don't know if it's fair to say we are sacrificing the 380 T&C. The plane is due for retirement this decade, its been confirmed by management. That contract will be gone if we like it or not. The black book conditions go with it.
The 380 pay scales will be grandfathered. That doesn't affect the current pilots.
Lets get those 350s into mainline, and secure the future for all of us.
I'll leave it there, as I agree with what you are saying.
Wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events. No doubt the vote NO conspiracy theorists will be using this one to the full advantage.
Another example of why its important to secure the 350 flying for mainline!
I don't know if it's fair to say we are sacrificing the 380 T&C. The plane is due for retirement this decade, its been confirmed by management. That contract will be gone if we like it or not. The black book conditions go with it.
The 380 pay scales will be grandfathered. That doesn't affect the current pilots.
Lets get those 350s into mainline, and secure the future for all of us.
I'll leave it there, as I agree with what you are saying.
Another example of why its important to secure the 350 flying for mainline!
They say they want 12?
So that means they will order 12 and Buy 6. I hope they get 30. I hoped they would get 50 787’s🤨
The offer is good enough to find happy people to do that type of flying at that price. Crewing it 1+2+1 is also a nice little win. (2+2 would have been nicer)
As with all other fleets current & past the 380 & 330 will be around until the last possible day they can park them. History does not favour an early retirement of these A/C. Traffic across the pacific is not getting weaker in the long term even with a direct NY service. Anyone tried to staff travel to/from LA lately?
Natural attrition (ie turning 65) will be how they get crews off the Legacy conditions. Some RIN’s, maybe? Probably? No one will be RIN’d to the 350 that doesn’t want the slot. They can all do displace or bid elsewhere. (It’s not a junior A/C!)
Sure would be nice to have a $400K pa job to be RIN’d to!😉
I think people are getting their Knickers all twisted in a knot unnecessarily. Just keep working the 350 deal and vote how you see fit.
As for the rest of LH. It’s a vanilla eba.
So that means they will order 12 and Buy 6. I hope they get 30. I hoped they would get 50 787’s🤨
The offer is good enough to find happy people to do that type of flying at that price. Crewing it 1+2+1 is also a nice little win. (2+2 would have been nicer)
As with all other fleets current & past the 380 & 330 will be around until the last possible day they can park them. History does not favour an early retirement of these A/C. Traffic across the pacific is not getting weaker in the long term even with a direct NY service. Anyone tried to staff travel to/from LA lately?
Natural attrition (ie turning 65) will be how they get crews off the Legacy conditions. Some RIN’s, maybe? Probably? No one will be RIN’d to the 350 that doesn’t want the slot. They can all do displace or bid elsewhere. (It’s not a junior A/C!)
Sure would be nice to have a $400K pa job to be RIN’d to!😉
I think people are getting their Knickers all twisted in a knot unnecessarily. Just keep working the 350 deal and vote how you see fit.
As for the rest of LH. It’s a vanilla eba.
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They say they want 12?
So that means they will order 12 and Buy 6. I hope they get 30. I hoped they would get 50 787’s🤨
The offer is good enough to find happy people to do that type of flying at that price. Crewing it 1+2+1 is also a nice little win. (2+2 would have been nicer)
As with all other fleets current & past the 380 & 330 will be around until the last possible day they can park them. History does not favour an early retirement of these A/C. Traffic across the pacific is not getting weaker in the long term even with a direct NY service. Anyone tried to staff travel to/from LA lately?
Natural attrition (ie turning 65) will be how they get crews off the Legacy conditions. Some RIN’s, maybe? Probably? No one will be RIN’d to the 350 that doesn’t want the slot. They can all do displace or bid elsewhere. (It’s not a junior A/C!)
Sure would be nice to have a $400K pa job to be RIN’d to!😉
I think people are getting their Knickers all twisted in a knot unnecessarily. Just keep working the 350 deal and vote how you see fit.
As for the rest of LH. It’s a vanilla eba.
So that means they will order 12 and Buy 6. I hope they get 30. I hoped they would get 50 787’s🤨
The offer is good enough to find happy people to do that type of flying at that price. Crewing it 1+2+1 is also a nice little win. (2+2 would have been nicer)
As with all other fleets current & past the 380 & 330 will be around until the last possible day they can park them. History does not favour an early retirement of these A/C. Traffic across the pacific is not getting weaker in the long term even with a direct NY service. Anyone tried to staff travel to/from LA lately?
Natural attrition (ie turning 65) will be how they get crews off the Legacy conditions. Some RIN’s, maybe? Probably? No one will be RIN’d to the 350 that doesn’t want the slot. They can all do displace or bid elsewhere. (It’s not a junior A/C!)
Sure would be nice to have a $400K pa job to be RIN’d to!😉
I think people are getting their Knickers all twisted in a knot unnecessarily. Just keep working the 350 deal and vote how you see fit.
As for the rest of LH. It’s a vanilla eba.
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The A350 will absolutely be a replacement for 330/380. They say the A350 is not as economically viable on the 10 hour sectors as it is on the ULH but they will fix that in the next order where some will be delivered with a more normal config. Remember, it’s worth 300 million bucks to them and all that cash will be coming from YOU if you vote YES not to mention what a whopping 20.5 hours of stick will surely do to your health which they don’t give a rats about. Don’t be ‘conditioned’ by their constant bullying via webinars. A NO vote won’t mean the end of your career. That’s ridiculous. Stand your ground and empower yourselves with a convincing NO vote and get em back to the table in April.
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Remember, it’s worth 300 million bucks to them and all that cash will be coming from YOU if you vote YES not to mention what a whopping 20.5 hours of stick will surely do to your health which they don’t give a rats about.[/QUOTE]
Piece of advice from a old chap about to retire.... Between money and lifestyle, choose the latter. I've seen enough pilots
sitting on cash, only to pass away shortly after retiring.
Good luck guys
Piece of advice from a old chap about to retire.... Between money and lifestyle, choose the latter. I've seen enough pilots
sitting on cash, only to pass away shortly after retiring.
Good luck guys
Why are people listening to the webinars anyway.
Bonuses are paid on engagement figures & they class every employee that listens to them as being engaged so up goes the bonus & then u are told they had a great response.
It seems like there are a lot of people with short memories out there or a lot of slow learners.
Nobody in management is your friend,hasnt that benn proven time & time again.
Bonuses are paid on engagement figures & they class every employee that listens to them as being engaged so up goes the bonus & then u are told they had a great response.
It seems like there are a lot of people with short memories out there or a lot of slow learners.
Nobody in management is your friend,hasnt that benn proven time & time again.
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Just curious, is that removed from service temporarily? Oh are these in a sales bundle with the JQ 787, eg buy one 787, get one A380 kind of thing?
G registered A350’s
Some people forget just how good T’s & C’s are now, compared to those of not so many years ago. Be careful how much you rock the boat, you wont realise you've rocked too far until its unrecoverable and the boat rolls over!
Its entirely plausible for the company to have London based pilots, on UK contracts (think F/A crew base). No reason why the airframes can’t be adorned with a UK, G prefix registration, either!
Its entirely plausible for the company to have London based pilots, on UK contracts (think F/A crew base). No reason why the airframes can’t be adorned with a UK, G prefix registration, either!
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There is no 350 negotiating table in April. What happens when the 350 goes to a new entity?
380's and 330's are retired from mainline, of course replace by 350's under the new entity.
What happens to the mainline pilots then? RINd.
What happens to the junior pilots then? LWOP or redundancy.
Do you know what redundancy is? Yeah that's right, you loose your job.
Your logic is flawed. Please stop providing misguided advice.
Some people forget just how good T’s & C’s are now, compared to those of not so many years ago. Be careful how much you rock the boat, you wont realise you've rocked too far until its unrecoverable and the boat rolls over!
Its entirely plausible for the company to have London based pilots, on UK contracts (think F/A crew base). No reason why the airframes can’t be adorned with a UK, G prefix registration, either!
Its entirely plausible for the company to have London based pilots, on UK contracts (think F/A crew base). No reason why the airframes can’t be adorned with a UK, G prefix registration, either!
To answer your question, with the way some LHS drivers and senior pilots have been talking regarding the negotiations - I've learnt that some of them are narrow minded short term thinkers, who only care about themselves, their legacy conditions, and doing everything possible to protect them, at the expense of the majority of the pilots, and the future of the LH EBA and mainline. After all, they will be retired in x years, and its obvious they don't give a ****.
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You sure about that mate?
There is no 350 negotiating table in April. What happens when the 350 goes to a new entity?
380's and 330's are retired from mainline, of course replace by 350's under the new entity.
What happens to the mainline pilots then? RINd.
What happens to the junior pilots then? LWOP or redundancy.
Do you know what redundancy is? Yeah that's right, you loose your job.
Your logic is flawed. Please stop providing misguided advice.
Spot on. Don't think they wont do it, because they will. Just look at the cabin crew.
I have more jet time than you may think. Lets keep it on subject shall we.
To answer your question, with the way some LHS drivers and senior pilots have been talking regarding the negotiations - I've learnt that some of them are narrow minded short term thinkers, who only care about themselves, their legacy conditions, and doing everything possible to protect them, at the expense of the majority of the pilots, and the future of the LH EBA and mainline. After all, they will be retired in x years, and its obvious they don't give a ****.
There is no 350 negotiating table in April. What happens when the 350 goes to a new entity?
380's and 330's are retired from mainline, of course replace by 350's under the new entity.
What happens to the mainline pilots then? RINd.
What happens to the junior pilots then? LWOP or redundancy.
Do you know what redundancy is? Yeah that's right, you loose your job.
Your logic is flawed. Please stop providing misguided advice.
Spot on. Don't think they wont do it, because they will. Just look at the cabin crew.
I have more jet time than you may think. Lets keep it on subject shall we.
To answer your question, with the way some LHS drivers and senior pilots have been talking regarding the negotiations - I've learnt that some of them are narrow minded short term thinkers, who only care about themselves, their legacy conditions, and doing everything possible to protect them, at the expense of the majority of the pilots, and the future of the LH EBA and mainline. After all, they will be retired in x years, and its obvious they don't give a ****.
I agree with the last four words of your post. Many won’t give a **** when you or your colleagues inevitably start complaining about the negative impact upon your health that 20.5 hours stick and 23.5 hours duty will have on you, least of all Tino & Co. They have conceded that more info is needed to properly understand the fatigue side so if that is true, why are we even trying to ‘value’ what this new kind of flying is worth now. Should we wait a bit longer? Don’t the pilots deserve more data on fatigue and health issues before deciding on what rates are applicable to this new uncharted area of international flying ops!? IMO, a YES vote is crazy and it just means you are happy to bend over for QF.
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And how do you propose they get more data? Give the flying away to a new entity, then 5 years down the track try and get it back?
If you don't want to do the flying, DON'T OPT IN!
If you don't want to do the flying, DON'T OPT IN!