A320 mess Sydney
What about A321?
Buttscratcher when the OM became the ultimate backup they thought they had simplified it enough that lack of use would avoid the incorrect figures being used. It was assumed that any crew would use the actual weight for the V speeds. The only reason to go up to the actual temp column was to check the RTOW figure for the W&B.
So to minimise dramas (or so they thought) all the charts were done as config3, full length, toga with the a/c off. To be fair, I’ve had to use them once since they went to the EFB so it’s very unusual to use them at all.
To answer the original question, no the 320 has no warning for the gear speed. For extra fun, there is a 30kt difference from max extension speed 250kt to retraction speed 220kt. A few crew have been caught out with this chestnut before, it isn’t a first.
Interesting. Does the Airbus give you a alert should one keep climbing with Gear Down?
Well, if it was not for the associated buffeting, I wonder how long they would go on for, and at what height/speed serious damage starts to occur.
Well, if it was not for the associated buffeting, I wonder how long they would go on for, and at what height/speed serious damage starts to occur.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/n...gear-low-fuel/
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A significant amount of the newer pilot group have never used rtow charts at JQ other than the training module when they started. (Currently being revisited!)
Global eduction systems are also moving towards electronic learning. The generations ahead may never have the opportunity to interpret paper charts and graphs as previous generations before.
As for this flight, final leg of a long duty, last minute aircraft swap, pushing curfew. All the risk factors are lining up. What a time to need to dust of the paper charts that you’ve probably not looked at since your last line check.
The old saying (modified for polite language) - put bad stuff in, get bad stuff out.
An Airmanship lesson from this would suggest pulling the paper charts out every now and again. Lots of time in cruise to discuss with younger crews.
GEC - wise words indeed!
It was assumed that any crew would use the actual weight for the V speeds. The only reason to go up to the actual temp column was to check the RTOW figure for the W&B.
Its a very good point about potentially rushing if curfew was near.
It's nice that y'all are catering for a lack of proficiency applying the RTOW charts from the OM....but, wouldn't you think TOGA ,PACKs off, F3 may be a little 'balls-out'?
Dunno much about that 'Bus, but looking at the chart on the above website, that thing has an insane amount of FLEX reserve. With TOGA it looks like it would be a handful if it was light. Go-arounds must be loads of fun!
I respect your opinions, and I do think Blueskymining nailed it. The guys may have messed up, and lined themselves up for an exciting ride, but don't you think the TOGA policy was a contributing factor, and should be revisited?
Is it an Airbus policy?....or something made up?
The 330 can FLEX from the charts just fine, different company tho.
Dunno much about that 'Bus, but looking at the chart on the above website, that thing has an insane amount of FLEX reserve. With TOGA it looks like it would be a handful if it was light. Go-arounds must be loads of fun!
I respect your opinions, and I do think Blueskymining nailed it. The guys may have messed up, and lined themselves up for an exciting ride, but don't you think the TOGA policy was a contributing factor, and should be revisited?
Is it an Airbus policy?....or something made up?
The 330 can FLEX from the charts just fine, different company tho.
Nope. I've never used them operationally, or been asked to demonstrate competency.
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My experience of flight in A320 with gear down later than the normal retraction is of a very noisy flight deck. It would be impossible not to notice. I ferried one ‘gear down’ for over one hour and was pleased to eventually land.
Secondly attempting to retract close to retraction speed limit is unlikely to be successful, or a least a slow procedure.
Secondly attempting to retract close to retraction speed limit is unlikely to be successful, or a least a slow procedure.
Remembering you independently extracted the data, couldn’t mark the book with the told card and the old told card had the speeds. (Are you still using them?).
This of course was in the day when you had the PDA and printer and a good FO knew the exact position to get the best infrared connection. Yes OM6 used to be a lot bigger. Plus there were two volumes and a full flight library on every flight deck.
Which also meant there was a good opportunity to have copies of the manuals. Even if they were a cycle out of date.
An even better airmanship lesson these days, (i.e. in the 21st century), would be to check and if necessary, update your company EFB before going to work !!
I am sure most of us switch the thing on while eating our cornflakes - if only to have a look at the weather for the day ahead ?
And/or arrive 20 mins early for report time so that updates and other admin buggeration factors can be allowed for and not delay the flight
Not that long ago, a supposedly experienced Captain, who arrived late, kept us waiting in the crew room well after we should have been on the flight deck, while his woefully out of date EFB slowly updated on the crew room Wi-Fi.
I was not impressed.
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You can see exactly how it happened.
For instance who here has had a slat/flat jam during a go around, received the ecam when you called go round flaps and omitted positive rate, because you were distracted by the ecam? Who then didn’t call gear up because the other guy didn’t call positive rate? I’ll put my hand up.
I trust the crew learnt some great lessons after this event and hope that it’s shared amongst your pilot group.
For instance who here has had a slat/flat jam during a go around, received the ecam when you called go round flaps and omitted positive rate, because you were distracted by the ecam? Who then didn’t call gear up because the other guy didn’t call positive rate? I’ll put my hand up.
I trust the crew learnt some great lessons after this event and hope that it’s shared amongst your pilot group.
Arrive 20 minutes early............. whatever. My company gives me 60 minutes, I will arrive there by sign on time and my IPad gets taken out of my flight bag only at work. If it needs updating then it is done there and then, if my FO is not impressed then he or she can complain to someone else, why would I donate my own time to the company?
Arrive 20 minutes early............. whatever. My company gives me 60 minutes, I will arrive there by sign on time and my IPad gets taken out of my flight bag only at work. If it needs updating then it is done there and then, if my FO is not impressed then he or she can complain to someone else, why would I donate my own time to the company?
Arrive 20 minutes early............. whatever. My company gives me 60 minutes, I will arrive there by sign on time and my IPad gets taken out of my flight bag only at work. If it needs updating then it is done there and then, if my FO is not impressed then he or she can complain to someone else, why would I donate my own time to the company?
This is the attitude that stinks. It’s also quite prevalent.
As professionals we are paid to fly from A to B safely. A lot of that safety factor comes from updating and maintaining knowledge at home in your own time.
I always come to work having updated my EFB, with the draft flight plans ready to go. I’ve checked all the notams and weather for my route/s. I’ve checked the status of the aeroplane and considered any issues that may effect me.
Essentially by the time I’ve got a coffee and got to the meeting spot, I’m waiting for the final flight plan and considering how much extra fuel is going on.
We have enough stress in our day to day operations. We didn’t need to cram it all into the tiny window at sign on which doesn’t adequately prepare us for the day ahead.
It also reflects on your professionalism to the other guy who’s waiting for you while you drag your heels. He/she know that it’s going to be a reactive day verse a proactive day.
An even better airmanship lesson these days, (i.e. in the 21st century), would be to check and if necessary, update your company EFB before going to work !!
This is where you are wrong though, it add’s absolutely no stress to my day. If I go 20 minutes late due to my pre-flight briefing taking longer then so be it.
Captain Fathom, As to the question about the simulator or line check I find that I get more than enough reading done on long flights to mean that I don’t have to do anything outside of that. How much study do you have to do to pass a routine check? I have never studied at home and I have never had an issue passing a sim or route check.
Where did I say I drag my heels? I would say that it is your attitude that has lead to a degradation in everyone’s terms and conditions, an apparent willingness to ‘be flexible’ and ‘get the job done’ under the pretence of professionalism. I have never departed with out of date material either as I have a routine to check it at every sign on, perhaps if this crew had a sign on routine to update everything then this would’ve have happened.
Personally it annoys me when people turn up and say ‘I have looked at everything’, the whole point of the briefing is to discuss everything as a crew, not to have it all done prior to sign on knowing that you don’t actually have enough time. Doin* that means you may miss that something is out of date and comes across as dismissive of the other crew member if you have already made all the fuel decisions.
This was raised with management as the pilot group wanted some sort of compensation for the expectation of doing this stuff at home, we were told that the company provided wifi in the Crewroom and we could do it there if needed. That is fine by me and that is where I will do it, what other contractual clauses are you happy to be flexible with to help out the company who by their very actions have shown their distain for your role?
Captain Fathom, As to the question about the simulator or line check I find that I get more than enough reading done on long flights to mean that I don’t have to do anything outside of that. How much study do you have to do to pass a routine check? I have never studied at home and I have never had an issue passing a sim or route check.
Where did I say I drag my heels? I would say that it is your attitude that has lead to a degradation in everyone’s terms and conditions, an apparent willingness to ‘be flexible’ and ‘get the job done’ under the pretence of professionalism. I have never departed with out of date material either as I have a routine to check it at every sign on, perhaps if this crew had a sign on routine to update everything then this would’ve have happened.
Personally it annoys me when people turn up and say ‘I have looked at everything’, the whole point of the briefing is to discuss everything as a crew, not to have it all done prior to sign on knowing that you don’t actually have enough time. Doin* that means you may miss that something is out of date and comes across as dismissive of the other crew member if you have already made all the fuel decisions.
This was raised with management as the pilot group wanted some sort of compensation for the expectation of doing this stuff at home, we were told that the company provided wifi in the Crewroom and we could do it there if needed. That is fine by me and that is where I will do it, what other contractual clauses are you happy to be flexible with to help out the company who by their very actions have shown their distain for your role?
Last edited by Ollie Onion; 25th Feb 2020 at 22:57. Reason: Update
I don’t know how you can argue that one Ollie.
More time to peruse the proposed flight as per the CARs is always better than less.
The preflight briefing is to discuss what information will affect your flight and to discuss fuel as a crew. It’s not really to digest the proposed flight. It just means you have less time to discuss it if you’re still digesting it.
We are paid to run a schedule. From A-B on time. That is the whole basis of RPT. That’s what an airline does. For our valued business clients in the premium side of the business it’s critical (obviously I don’t fly the Jetstar line).
I personally do a lot of study in my home time. There’s 3 stages you go through as an aviator.
learning to fly
consolidating existing knowledge
Actively seeking new knowledge
Be the third one. Especially if you’re a captain.
More time to peruse the proposed flight as per the CARs is always better than less.
The preflight briefing is to discuss what information will affect your flight and to discuss fuel as a crew. It’s not really to digest the proposed flight. It just means you have less time to discuss it if you’re still digesting it.
We are paid to run a schedule. From A-B on time. That is the whole basis of RPT. That’s what an airline does. For our valued business clients in the premium side of the business it’s critical (obviously I don’t fly the Jetstar line).
I personally do a lot of study in my home time. There’s 3 stages you go through as an aviator.
learning to fly
consolidating existing knowledge
Actively seeking new knowledge
Be the third one. Especially if you’re a captain.
We are paid to run a schedule. From A-B on time. That is the whole basis of RPT.