C130 down NE Cooma
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As a few have said, its up to the ATSB and police now.
In the light of day as is often the case investigators are in bright sunshine with an aircraft wreckage and minus the low cloud, reduced viz, wind and in this case as has often been commented upon that fire makes its own weather.
Looking at the approach path to the crash site my heart goes out to the pilot and my thoughts of what was he trying to do?
Put it down or try to restore normal flight ?
A few more feet and they would have missed the tops, assuming they could see.
None of the elements of that day now exist except
Are there any radio calls to indicate a mayday aircraft in distress?
We will see the results of the flight recorders assuming they were running .
We owe the crew the respect they deserve as fellow pilots who gave their lives operating a large aircraft close to the ground in unprecedented conditions where the fires possibly created unsurvivable dimensions that no normal operations would be contemplated.
But these were exceptional people who put their skills and lives on the line 130 sorties before this ill fated one.
Fires are still around us, 41 degree here next week fire bombers still on base no one packs up and goes home just like in wartime when pilots and aircraft are lost.
And this is war these fires have and will put people at risk.
Not for the faint if heart.
It takes courage and more so being selfless these guys pressed on in unimaginable conditions.
In the light of day as is often the case investigators are in bright sunshine with an aircraft wreckage and minus the low cloud, reduced viz, wind and in this case as has often been commented upon that fire makes its own weather.
Looking at the approach path to the crash site my heart goes out to the pilot and my thoughts of what was he trying to do?
Put it down or try to restore normal flight ?
A few more feet and they would have missed the tops, assuming they could see.
None of the elements of that day now exist except
Are there any radio calls to indicate a mayday aircraft in distress?
We will see the results of the flight recorders assuming they were running .
We owe the crew the respect they deserve as fellow pilots who gave their lives operating a large aircraft close to the ground in unprecedented conditions where the fires possibly created unsurvivable dimensions that no normal operations would be contemplated.
But these were exceptional people who put their skills and lives on the line 130 sorties before this ill fated one.
Fires are still around us, 41 degree here next week fire bombers still on base no one packs up and goes home just like in wartime when pilots and aircraft are lost.
And this is war these fires have and will put people at risk.
Not for the faint if heart.
It takes courage and more so being selfless these guys pressed on in unimaginable conditions.
Last edited by ZAZ; 25th Jan 2020 at 16:45. Reason: ad
We owe the crew the respect they deserve as fellow pilots who gave their lives operating a large aircraft close to the ground in unprecedented conditions where the fires possibly created unsurvivable dimensions that no normal operations would be contemplated.
But these were exceptional people who put their skills and lives on the line 130 sorties before this ill fated one.
But these were exceptional people who put their skills and lives on the line 130 sorties before this ill fated one.
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Looks right to me, now the question is this (for me), was the tanker conducting a retardant drop in the bush area immediately prior to the crash location and did the aircraft crash on climb out?
News reports said it had just dropped the remainder of the load and turned sharp left shortly after and not long before this happened.
And for good measure, heres the fire map for the area
If the aircraft was in the process of conducting the drop, I assume the lead plane and AAS would of likely witnessed the crash - that would be the best evidence.
If the aircraft was in the process of conducting the drop, I assume the lead plane and AAS would of likely witnessed the crash - that would be the best evidence.
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A trivial question given the circumstances- curious about the lack of lower "chin" windows on the aircraft. Is that a legacy of the EC-130 TACAMO configuration? I looked at some EC-130 TACAMO pictures on line and it seemed some had the lower windows (down by the rudder pedals), some did not. Was the first time I had noticed a C-130 without these.
Hmmm. Thanks, but I've been familiar with airborne multilateration since I first did trials with it more than 10 years ago.
MLAT is based on Mode S, by the way, not on ADS-B, though it sounds like you don't understand the difference. While it has some value for deriving an approximate position for a non-ADS-B-equipped aircraft, that's not really relevant here as the Coulson C-130s have ADS-B. If an aircraft is broadcasting ADS-B, then using multilateration to try to derive its position is pointless.
As for accuracy, MLAT - in the the crowd-sourced implementations used by the enthusiast flight trackers - is a relatively crude technique, roughly analogous to triangulation (though the technology is different, and more tricky, being based on TDOA). To suggest that multilateration can somehow give more accurate positional information than ADS-B - which nowadays is almost universally based on GPS - is just plain ridiculous.
MLAT is based on Mode S, by the way, not on ADS-B, though it sounds like you don't understand the difference. While it has some value for deriving an approximate position for a non-ADS-B-equipped aircraft, that's not really relevant here as the Coulson C-130s have ADS-B. If an aircraft is broadcasting ADS-B, then using multilateration to try to derive its position is pointless.
As for accuracy, MLAT - in the the crowd-sourced implementations used by the enthusiast flight trackers - is a relatively crude technique, roughly analogous to triangulation (though the technology is different, and more tricky, being based on TDOA). To suggest that multilateration can somehow give more accurate positional information than ADS-B - which nowadays is almost universally based on GPS - is just plain ridiculous.
Triangulation
Trilateration and Multilateration
Not that it really changes anything or contradicts what you're saying.
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Note: this is not to say that I believe that a multiple engine power loss was a factor in this accident. I don't know, and am not suggesting it is. Just stating that it's utter horsecrap to say that such is "unprecedented"
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I don't know the answer, but I will say that the Civilian Hercs were built without those windows. It may be that the C-130Qs were built without them, or it could be that they were subsequently replaced with aluminum skins a la the L382, perhaps by Colulson, because sheet metal is less expensive than windows.
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I didn't mean that in any pejorative sense. Frankly, if I were rebuilding a Herc for a mission for which the lower windows were of no benefit, and faced with the choice of replacing damaged/unairworthy window panes, I would consider replacing them with metal also.
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I know Wayne Coulson and Jim Messer personally and I want there to be no misconception - they run an absolutely top-notch operation.
They have also done some cutting-edge work in fire-detection/mapping and bird-dogging.
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i find it interesting that there is no mention of a lead plane. Observers in Richmond said the air command aircraft did not go with Bomber 134 - can anyone provide tracking evidence for a lead plane?
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Just went over the A-DSB from https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N134CG
the most probable wing failure occurred at 1980 meters, thats quite
a fair distance above the ground.
the most probable wing failure occurred at 1980 meters, thats quite
a fair distance above the ground.
Last edited by A Squared; 26th Jan 2020 at 08:11.
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There is mention in this article of a lead plane, although who knows how reliable that is. Obviously falls far short of an ADS-B track of same.
David, good response to SPCL's obvious confusion about ADS-B and Multilateration, however, you've stumbled across one of my pet peeves. to wit: "roughly analogous to triangulation" No, it is not. Triangulation is determining positions by measuring angles (usually in the context of surveying, with theodolites) Determining positions by measuring distances, and forming triangles is "trilateration" or if multiple triangles are formed, multilateration. No angles are measured.
I'm well aware of the fundamental difference in technique (I did mention TDOA in my explanation, after all). But I still maintain that it's a useful analogy to get across the concept of using a network of ground stations take measurements from a target (whether angle or TDOA) in order to establish its position.
Particularly as I was trying to explain it to someone who was making ridiculous claims for its accuracy.
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No, I don't think so. The wheels are only to roll it into the plane for installation. When it is installed is is attached to the airframe securely and in accordance with all the appropriate airworthiness regulations. it's not likely to move around inside the airplane in flight.