Buying Water Bombers For Australia?
We have also already had trouble with stubborn fishermen getting in the way and there is currently no legislation that prevents them anchoring right on your best scooping zone.
You would need to do an inventory of suitable lakes, rivers, dams, bays, etc. You would also need to establish/design. approaches for each that takes into account known hazards (the wires over lake Eildon for example).
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CL-415 list price, when available was in the order of $37,000,000
For a 6,000 Lt capacity
One can purchase 30 SEAT aircraft with a 3,000 Lt capacity for that money.
Except, they are already here, on contract, with crew, from local operators.
The way said assets are utilised is what needs to be looked at.
For a 6,000 Lt capacity
One can purchase 30 SEAT aircraft with a 3,000 Lt capacity for that money.
Except, they are already here, on contract, with crew, from local operators.
The way said assets are utilised is what needs to be looked at.
Havick, the power lines across Eildon claimed 4 lives years ago, the lake is mostly surrounded by high terrain and it is a popular destination for boaters and fishermen. Trust me when I say you would need to survey the lakes in Victoria at least.
We have also already had trouble with stubborn fishermen getting in the way and there is currently no legislation that prevents them anchoring right on your best scooping zone.
Then there are obstacles like dead trees.
We have also already had trouble with stubborn fishermen getting in the way and there is currently no legislation that prevents them anchoring right on your best scooping zone.
Then there are obstacles like dead trees.
Thread Starter
No, I’m an experienced Eildon boater and enough of a pilot to know that you had better do some real good performance calculations before you enter the narrow valleys with 2000 ft steep terrain both sides. So unless your Canadairs is happy with 45 degree approach and fully loaded climb outs, your exits are one way over bonnie doon, delatite arm, fords creek arm, over the dam wall perhaps Goughs Bay or Goulburn arm because elsewhere you won’t outclimb the terrain. Lake Nihlacootie is much easier. Don’t know about the others
However if you think you can scoop on a hot windy and turbulent day while dodging curious jet skis, wakeboarders, fishermen, water skiers, houseboats, high tension wires and dead timber, then I’d like to watch. By the way, the lake is currently at about 40% capacity which restricts your options a little.
The stubborn fisherman is real and he refused to move, thus impeding helo reloading despite multiple entreaties from CFA personnel. There is currently no law that can force them to move, although upper Murray Goulburn water may be able to close the lake to all but houseboats.
However if you think you can scoop on a hot windy and turbulent day while dodging curious jet skis, wakeboarders, fishermen, water skiers, houseboats, high tension wires and dead timber, then I’d like to watch. By the way, the lake is currently at about 40% capacity which restricts your options a little.
The stubborn fisherman is real and he refused to move, thus impeding helo reloading despite multiple entreaties from CFA personnel. There is currently no law that can force them to move, although upper Murray Goulburn water may be able to close the lake to all but houseboats.
Last edited by Sunfish; 16th Feb 2020 at 19:54.
There is currently no law that can force them to move,
Goulburn-Murray Water as the declared waterway manager for Lake Eildon and Eildon Pondage, makes the following declaration under section 203(3) of the Marine Safety Act 2010 (Vic).
State waters means—
(a) the territorial sea adjacent to the State; and
(b) the sea on the landward side of the territorial sea adjacent to the State that is not within the limits of the State; and
(c) waters within the limits of the State;
(a) the territorial sea adjacent to the State; and
(b) the sea on the landward side of the territorial sea adjacent to the State that is not within the limits of the State; and
(c) waters within the limits of the State;
Division 2—Activity exclusion zones
208 Activity exclusion zones
(1) The Safety Director, by notice published in the Government Gazette, may prohibit—
(a) a person or class of person;
(b) a vessel or class of vessel—
from entering, or remaining in, a specified part of State waters for the period specified by the notice.
(2) Subject to this section and section 209, a port management body, local port manager or waterway manager, by notice published in the
Government Gazette, may prohibit—
(a) a person or class of person;
(b) a vessel or class of vessel—
from entering, or remaining in, a specified part of waters under their control for the period specified by the notice.
(3) The period specified by a notice under subsection (1) or (2) must not exceed the prescribed period of time (if any).
(4) A notice may only be made under subsection (1) or (2) by the Safety Director, port management body, local port manager or waterway manager for the purpose of giving effect to a declaration under section 203.
(5) A notice under subsection (1) or (2) must—
(a) describe the part of the waters to which the notice applies; and
(b) specify the person or class of person to whom, or vessel or class of vessel to which, the notice applies.
208 Activity exclusion zones
(1) The Safety Director, by notice published in the Government Gazette, may prohibit—
(a) a person or class of person;
(b) a vessel or class of vessel—
from entering, or remaining in, a specified part of State waters for the period specified by the notice.
(2) Subject to this section and section 209, a port management body, local port manager or waterway manager, by notice published in the
Government Gazette, may prohibit—
(a) a person or class of person;
(b) a vessel or class of vessel—
from entering, or remaining in, a specified part of waters under their control for the period specified by the notice.
(3) The period specified by a notice under subsection (1) or (2) must not exceed the prescribed period of time (if any).
(4) A notice may only be made under subsection (1) or (2) by the Safety Director, port management body, local port manager or waterway manager for the purpose of giving effect to a declaration under section 203.
(5) A notice under subsection (1) or (2) must—
(a) describe the part of the waters to which the notice applies; and
(b) specify the person or class of person to whom, or vessel or class of vessel to which, the notice applies.
Thread Starter
Thank goodness! I guess you would need to define a scooping zone as prohibition for the whole lake would have very significant economic fallout for Mansfield, Eildon, Jamison, Howqua and Bonnie Doon
"need to define a scooping zone as prohibition for the whole lake "
Only when there is a major fire tho'..................
Only when there is a major fire tho'..................
I guess you would need to define a scooping zone as prohibition
Just imagine if along with a squadron of amphibian multipurpose water bombers every Australian major country centre was required to build nearby a dedicated 1-2km long dam or reservoir for public use (water & recreation) and that was available for fire fighting when needed.
Thread Starter
Just imagine if along with a squadron of amphibian multipurpose water bombers every Australian major country centre was required to build nearby a dedicated 1-2km long dam or reservoir for public use (water & recreation) and that was available for fire fighting when needed.
Just imagine if all forests were required to be fitted with sprinkler systems.
Just imagine if along with a squadron of amphibian multipurpose water bombers every Australian major country centre was required to build nearby a dedicated 1-2km long dam or reservoir for public use (water & recreation) and that was available for fire fighting when needed.
Thread Starter
While I would like nothing better than a Canadaire moored at Eildon, I fail to see how Commonwealth command and control is going to be fast and flexible enough to respond to all but major “campaign” fires. I personally prefer the speed of the air tractors response, combined with the precision and flexibility of helicopters. However the more the merrier.
We just copped 17mm
We just copped 17mm
Just imagine if along with a squadron of amphibian multipurpose water bombers every Australian major country centre was required to build nearby a dedicated 1-2km long dam or reservoir for public use (water & recreation) and that was available for fire fighting when needed.
Sort of like having a police station and a medical center.
They could be used off season also to create a green belt/s near the towns for training (being sprinklers) and extra protection.
Actually when you look at a lot of the fires, started by an "Act of God", man shovels shed loads of dollars and effort at them to put them out and eventually the guy up stairs gets bored and does the job properly and puts them out himself.
"Wollemi Pines" - these days you can buy them at any garden centre in the world for about $ 10.............
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There are some interesting cost comparison figures for large fire bombers on the Fire Aviation site. While the figures will certainly not be accurate for Australia the difference between aircraft type costs will be relevant. In particular the costs/gallon dropped for the B737 v MD80 and the Bae 146 v RJ are interesting. I assume the lower cost of the MD and 146 represent the cheaper hull purchase price?
Wunwing
Wunwing
Sorry for the slight thread drift however during the recent fires I began to wonder whether regional railway freight/grain lines (those that are still maintained 
) might be a potential means by which water and fire fighting assets could be deployed. Seems to me that a few thousand tons of water tanker cars could be mobile fairly smartly from a central location - maybe even more capacity than that could be moved. Fallen trees aside (cow catchers??), railway lines would seem to be fairly robust with regard to fire attack. A purpose built fire fighting train may be another arrow in the quiver given the extent of regional lines and could provide a central re-filling point for mobile ground based and aerial fire fighting assets. Just a thought.
) might be a potential means by which water and fire fighting assets could be deployed. Seems to me that a few thousand tons of water tanker cars could be mobile fairly smartly from a central location - maybe even more capacity than that could be moved. Fallen trees aside (cow catchers??), railway lines would seem to be fairly robust with regard to fire attack. A purpose built fire fighting train may be another arrow in the quiver given the extent of regional lines and could provide a central re-filling point for mobile ground based and aerial fire fighting assets. Just a thought.
Thread Starter
Last night about 7.00 pm the siren went off. Lightening strike started a fire (the rain is patchy) about a hectare of grass and a few trees about 20 mins away on a cattle property. Three tankers (15 crew) from different locations attended and we had it out in an hour.
This is typical of your fires. If it was daylight and the fire was spreading then there was a helo and air tractor about ten minutes or less away.
It’s all right to think big, professional firefighters, squadrons of giant aircraft, man made lakes, central command in Canberra, etc. but the reality is they will sit around eating money for most of the year. A cocky with a nap sack spray does it quicker and for free.
BTW, we now have 14 new members under training, mostly young folk, I suspect as a result of the fires and I wouldn’t be surprised if that was happening elsewhere.
This is typical of your fires. If it was daylight and the fire was spreading then there was a helo and air tractor about ten minutes or less away.
It’s all right to think big, professional firefighters, squadrons of giant aircraft, man made lakes, central command in Canberra, etc. but the reality is they will sit around eating money for most of the year. A cocky with a nap sack spray does it quicker and for free.
BTW, we now have 14 new members under training, mostly young folk, I suspect as a result of the fires and I wouldn’t be surprised if that was happening elsewhere.
Thread Starter
FWIW, the best return, in my opinion, on investment right now (apart from new trucks for the RFS) would be a GPS enabled ruggedised iPad with an emergency mapping app in every truck. Possibly with a two way datalink. We still suffer from people unsure of fire location and losing their way. Not everyone, even locals, know all the terrain.