Buying Water Bombers For Australia?
Its criminal that we dont have a squadron of 10 dedicated CL415s operating here.
All of the east coast fires were within a reasonable flying time of a water body and 6-10 aircraft could have had a profound affect if utilised early.
The ground based forces dont have the big picture that you can get from simply flying at 35000 ft over the east coast.
Leadership and political guts are gone in Australia.
Either that or some simple diplomacy to coordinate with our northern Mediterranean brothers and sisters to use their CL415 assets during their winter. How many were sitting up there idle for the months of our devastation.
Its madness. The CL415s are strong, amphibious, flexible and can be utilised in other roles by the ADF when not firefighting.
Private companies and individuals are swooping on the fires as a profit making opportunity to rake in millions off the back of the Australian tax payer.
I watched so many small fires during this east coast travesty start as easily controllable small spot fires had they been snuffed out at early dawn. Instead they went burning on and escalated destroying so much especially as winds increased in the afternoons.
The 6 ton drops from a daisy chain of Canadairs will snuff out the edges and concentrate the fire front so that it can be smashed when it quietens - early dawn, or even at night on NVGs.
All of the east coast fires were within a reasonable flying time of a water body and 6-10 aircraft could have had a profound affect if utilised early.
The ground based forces dont have the big picture that you can get from simply flying at 35000 ft over the east coast.
Leadership and political guts are gone in Australia.
Either that or some simple diplomacy to coordinate with our northern Mediterranean brothers and sisters to use their CL415 assets during their winter. How many were sitting up there idle for the months of our devastation.
Its madness. The CL415s are strong, amphibious, flexible and can be utilised in other roles by the ADF when not firefighting.
Private companies and individuals are swooping on the fires as a profit making opportunity to rake in millions off the back of the Australian tax payer.
I watched so many small fires during this east coast travesty start as easily controllable small spot fires had they been snuffed out at early dawn. Instead they went burning on and escalated destroying so much especially as winds increased in the afternoons.
The 6 ton drops from a daisy chain of Canadairs will snuff out the edges and concentrate the fire front so that it can be smashed when it quietens - early dawn, or even at night on NVGs.
Thread Starter
Either my medication is haywire or it’s crazy time at Pprune.
12000 Professional rural firefighters? You couldn’t even afford their annual leave costs. They get meals, rest breaks, allowances, annual leave and paid training. Furthermore, they only work eight hour shifts as far as I can tell. Then what do you do with these folk outside the fire season? 12000 wouldn’t be enough anyway. By way of example, an “easy” 300 acre bushfire absorbed about twenty five tankers and 150+ firefighters for about twelve hours before Christmas. You have no idea of the scale of the fire response required - community supported volunteers are the only cost effective solution when you consider the scale and logistics required.
A squadron of CL415’s? Firefighters would die of old age waiting for Canberra Committees to release them. ...And who decides when there are competing priorities/ ScoMo and Bridget Mackenzie? Marginal seat analysis?
I have two Coulson Sea Kings and a fixed wing water bomber ten minutes from here. They can most certainly beat our tankers to most fires. Would I replace them with a Canberra based squadron? We would all be incinerated before Canberra could get off its backside and react.
12000 Professional rural firefighters? You couldn’t even afford their annual leave costs. They get meals, rest breaks, allowances, annual leave and paid training. Furthermore, they only work eight hour shifts as far as I can tell. Then what do you do with these folk outside the fire season? 12000 wouldn’t be enough anyway. By way of example, an “easy” 300 acre bushfire absorbed about twenty five tankers and 150+ firefighters for about twelve hours before Christmas. You have no idea of the scale of the fire response required - community supported volunteers are the only cost effective solution when you consider the scale and logistics required.
A squadron of CL415’s? Firefighters would die of old age waiting for Canberra Committees to release them. ...And who decides when there are competing priorities/ ScoMo and Bridget Mackenzie? Marginal seat analysis?
I have two Coulson Sea Kings and a fixed wing water bomber ten minutes from here. They can most certainly beat our tankers to most fires. Would I replace them with a Canberra based squadron? We would all be incinerated before Canberra could get off its backside and react.
Either my medication is haywire or it’s crazy time at Pprune.
12000 Professional rural firefighters? You couldn’t even afford their annual leave costs. They get meals, rest breaks, allowances, annual leave and paid training. Furthermore, they only work eight hour shifts as far as I can tell. Then what do you do with these folk outside the fire season? 12000 wouldn’t be enough anyway. By way of example, an “easy” 300 acre bushfire absorbed about twenty five tankers and 150+ firefighters for about twelve hours before Christmas. You have no idea of the scale of the fire response required - community supported volunteers are the only cost effective solution when you consider the scale and logistics required.
A squadron of CL415’s? Firefighters would die of old age waiting for Canberra Committees to release them. ...And who decides when there are competing priorities/ ScoMo and Bridget Mackenzie? Marginal seat analysis?
I have two Coulson Sea Kings and a fixed wing water bomber ten minutes from here. They can most certainly beat our tankers to most fires. Would I replace them with a Canberra based squadron? We would all be incinerated before Canberra could get off its backside and react.
12000 Professional rural firefighters? You couldn’t even afford their annual leave costs. They get meals, rest breaks, allowances, annual leave and paid training. Furthermore, they only work eight hour shifts as far as I can tell. Then what do you do with these folk outside the fire season? 12000 wouldn’t be enough anyway. By way of example, an “easy” 300 acre bushfire absorbed about twenty five tankers and 150+ firefighters for about twelve hours before Christmas. You have no idea of the scale of the fire response required - community supported volunteers are the only cost effective solution when you consider the scale and logistics required.
A squadron of CL415’s? Firefighters would die of old age waiting for Canberra Committees to release them. ...And who decides when there are competing priorities/ ScoMo and Bridget Mackenzie? Marginal seat analysis?
I have two Coulson Sea Kings and a fixed wing water bomber ten minutes from here. They can most certainly beat our tankers to most fires. Would I replace them with a Canberra based squadron? We would all be incinerated before Canberra could get off its backside and react.
Again your reply is purely a reactive one, out of active fire fighting season is pro active preventative work on many levels not possible with volunteers.
Fire prevention and training would take many of the off fire months and then they would need 4-5 weeks annual leave - not much spare time outside the fire season mate.
You also fail to see the proactive measures of fire fighting and prevention available for a professional force compared to a voluntary one.
A squadron of CL415’s? Firefighters would die of old age waiting for Canberra Committees to release them
Incorrectly in my opinion fires are a state issue - so yes currently waiting for Canberra is a death issue.
Either my medication is haywire or it’s crazy time at Pprune.
12000 Professional rural firefighters? You couldn’t even afford their annual leave costs. They get meals, rest breaks, allowances, annual leave and paid training. Furthermore, they only work eight hour shifts as far as I can tell. Then what do you do with these folk outside the fire season? 12000 wouldn’t be enough anyway. By way of example, an “easy” 300 acre bushfire absorbed about twenty five tankers and 150+ firefighters for about twelve hours before Christmas. You have no idea of the scale of the fire response required - community supported volunteers are the only cost effective solution when you consider the scale and logistics required.
A squadron of CL415’s? Firefighters would die of old age waiting for Canberra Committees to release them. ...And who decides when there are competing priorities/ ScoMo and Bridget Mackenzie? Marginal seat analysis?
I have two Coulson Sea Kings and a fixed wing water bomber ten minutes from here. They can most certainly beat our tankers to most fires. Would I replace them with a Canberra based squadron? We would all be incinerated before Canberra could get off its backside and react.
12000 Professional rural firefighters? You couldn’t even afford their annual leave costs. They get meals, rest breaks, allowances, annual leave and paid training. Furthermore, they only work eight hour shifts as far as I can tell. Then what do you do with these folk outside the fire season? 12000 wouldn’t be enough anyway. By way of example, an “easy” 300 acre bushfire absorbed about twenty five tankers and 150+ firefighters for about twelve hours before Christmas. You have no idea of the scale of the fire response required - community supported volunteers are the only cost effective solution when you consider the scale and logistics required.
A squadron of CL415’s? Firefighters would die of old age waiting for Canberra Committees to release them. ...And who decides when there are competing priorities/ ScoMo and Bridget Mackenzie? Marginal seat analysis?
I have two Coulson Sea Kings and a fixed wing water bomber ten minutes from here. They can most certainly beat our tankers to most fires. Would I replace them with a Canberra based squadron? We would all be incinerated before Canberra could get off its backside and react.
I am aware of course that the game changes if fires have been going for any length of time or in forest or mountainous terrain.
Thread Starter
Bendy, right now. 2221, I am no more than 2 minutes from the station and we can put a tanker on the road with 5 firefighters, intimately familiar with the local area, within five minutes.
A “professional” force is going to have to be based in regional locations with a minimum of 30+ professional firefighters running a roster to give coverage of one tanker - and that by definition is going to be 20-30 minutes from the fire ground.
Where I am, I have six volunteer brigades - Six tankers within 20 minutes or less. The volunteer model is basically to be able to “swarm” a fire really fast, from multiple locations. A “professional “ service can’t do that because you can’t station dispersed individual tankers - they have to be centralized which slows response.
Now add to that the problems of false alarms, barbecue flare ups, etc. and your professional centralized model is utterly inefficient.
To put that another way, most fires are small, lightening strikes, illegal burn offs, campfires, etc., not the catastrophic stuff you have recently seen. A monolithic professional structure is utterly useless for the majority of fires and we can replicate that if needed anyway through the use of strike teams, etc.
To,put that another way, command and control, numbers of firefighters, etc. has not been a problem in NSW or Victoria, since by definition, you cannot set numbers based on the catastrophic fire case.
A “professional” force is going to have to be based in regional locations with a minimum of 30+ professional firefighters running a roster to give coverage of one tanker - and that by definition is going to be 20-30 minutes from the fire ground.
Where I am, I have six volunteer brigades - Six tankers within 20 minutes or less. The volunteer model is basically to be able to “swarm” a fire really fast, from multiple locations. A “professional “ service can’t do that because you can’t station dispersed individual tankers - they have to be centralized which slows response.
Now add to that the problems of false alarms, barbecue flare ups, etc. and your professional centralized model is utterly inefficient.
To put that another way, most fires are small, lightening strikes, illegal burn offs, campfires, etc., not the catastrophic stuff you have recently seen. A monolithic professional structure is utterly useless for the majority of fires and we can replicate that if needed anyway through the use of strike teams, etc.
To,put that another way, command and control, numbers of firefighters, etc. has not been a problem in NSW or Victoria, since by definition, you cannot set numbers based on the catastrophic fire case.
Its criminal that we dont have a squadron of 10 dedicated CL415s operating here
But there is hope. Viking Canadair have bought the lne from Bombardier. The CL515 is the latest version. Sadly the first lot are heading to Indonesia in 2025.
Sunfish, yes I definitely think you're off your meds again. Are you aware the NSW gov't already bought themselves an LAT or whatever it is? Wasn't that your original question? Maybe they read the expert advice here and bought in.
Yes I read the indons are buying the 515s. They don't seem to care about fires very much.... maybe they're planning SAR activities. Or retrieving boat people?
Thread Starter
LAT’s are great, but budgetary and political pressures automatically mean that in return for a Federally funded “squadron” of LAT’s, the States will be required to give up local operational control as well as contributing to the budget. This will inevitably come at the cost of local, small and flexible air assets because that’s the way the Commonwealth works. They will preach centralization and economy of scale — which means inflexibility and slow response.
To put that another way, I’d be concerned that such a squadron would be “instead of” not “in addition to” because that’s the way effing bean counters think.
As for modeling fire fighting structure and numbers on Police experience, that’s flatly wrong because you need far more firefighters very quickly. I was out at 2.00 am on new year’s eve putting out a monster campfire and dealing with ten very drunk and unpleasant revellers . The nearest police were at least an hour away - we called them, but cancelled when they told us the response time.
To put that another way, I’d be concerned that such a squadron would be “instead of” not “in addition to” because that’s the way effing bean counters think.
As for modeling fire fighting structure and numbers on Police experience, that’s flatly wrong because you need far more firefighters very quickly. I was out at 2.00 am on new year’s eve putting out a monster campfire and dealing with ten very drunk and unpleasant revellers . The nearest police were at least an hour away - we called them, but cancelled when they told us the response time.
Its criminal that we dont have a squadron of 10 dedicated CL415s operating here.
All of the east coast fires were within a reasonable flying time of a water body and 6-10 aircraft could have had a profound affect if utilised early.
The ground based forces dont have the big picture that you can get from simply flying at 35000 ft over the east coast.
Leadership and political guts are gone in Australia.
Either that or some simple diplomacy to coordinate with our northern Mediterranean brothers and sisters to use their CL415 assets during their winter. How many were sitting up there idle for the months of our devastation.
Its madness. The CL415s are strong, amphibious, flexible and can be utilised in other roles by the ADF when not firefighting.
Private companies and individuals are swooping on the fires as a profit making opportunity to rake in millions off the back of the Australian tax payer.
I watched so many small fires during this east coast travesty start as easily controllable small spot fires had they been snuffed out at early dawn. Instead they went burning on and escalated destroying so much especially as winds increased in the afternoons.
The 6 ton drops from a daisy chain of Canadairs will snuff out the edges and concentrate the fire front so that it can be smashed when it quietens - early dawn, or even at night on NVGs.
All of the east coast fires were within a reasonable flying time of a water body and 6-10 aircraft could have had a profound affect if utilised early.
The ground based forces dont have the big picture that you can get from simply flying at 35000 ft over the east coast.
Leadership and political guts are gone in Australia.
Either that or some simple diplomacy to coordinate with our northern Mediterranean brothers and sisters to use their CL415 assets during their winter. How many were sitting up there idle for the months of our devastation.
Its madness. The CL415s are strong, amphibious, flexible and can be utilised in other roles by the ADF when not firefighting.
Private companies and individuals are swooping on the fires as a profit making opportunity to rake in millions off the back of the Australian tax payer.
I watched so many small fires during this east coast travesty start as easily controllable small spot fires had they been snuffed out at early dawn. Instead they went burning on and escalated destroying so much especially as winds increased in the afternoons.
The 6 ton drops from a daisy chain of Canadairs will snuff out the edges and concentrate the fire front so that it can be smashed when it quietens - early dawn, or even at night on NVGs.
what did they end up doing this season? That’s probably the best litmus test to see how CL415’s would go in Australia.
Bendy, right now. 2221, I am no more than 2 minutes from the station and we can put a tanker on the road with 5 firefighters, intimately familiar with the local area, within five minutes.
A “professional” force is going to have to be based in regional locations with a minimum of 30+ professional firefighters running a roster to give coverage of one tanker - and that by definition is going to be 20-30 minutes from the fire ground.
Where I am, I have six volunteer brigades - Six tankers within 20 minutes or less. The volunteer model is basically to be able to “swarm” a fire really fast, from multiple locations. A “professional “ service can’t do that because you can’t station dispersed individual tankers - they have to be centralized which slows response.
Now add to that the problems of false alarms, barbecue flare ups, etc. and your professional centralized model is utterly inefficient.
To put that another way, most fires are small, lightening strikes, illegal burn offs, campfires, etc., not the catastrophic stuff you have recently seen. A monolithic professional structure is utterly useless for the majority of fires and we can replicate that if needed anyway through the use of strike teams, etc.
To,put that another way, command and control, numbers of firefighters, etc. has not been a problem in NSW or Victoria, since by definition, you cannot set numbers based on the catastrophic fire case.
A “professional” force is going to have to be based in regional locations with a minimum of 30+ professional firefighters running a roster to give coverage of one tanker - and that by definition is going to be 20-30 minutes from the fire ground.
Where I am, I have six volunteer brigades - Six tankers within 20 minutes or less. The volunteer model is basically to be able to “swarm” a fire really fast, from multiple locations. A “professional “ service can’t do that because you can’t station dispersed individual tankers - they have to be centralized which slows response.
Now add to that the problems of false alarms, barbecue flare ups, etc. and your professional centralized model is utterly inefficient.
To put that another way, most fires are small, lightening strikes, illegal burn offs, campfires, etc., not the catastrophic stuff you have recently seen. A monolithic professional structure is utterly useless for the majority of fires and we can replicate that if needed anyway through the use of strike teams, etc.
To,put that another way, command and control, numbers of firefighters, etc. has not been a problem in NSW or Victoria, since by definition, you cannot set numbers based on the catastrophic fire case.
My vision is not just a reactive one, but also heavily preventive with much more than just fuel reduction burns. Arson is an area not currently addressed (except reactively) yet it is a major issue. The whole system requires a different approach.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"In total more than 500 aircraft, provided by over 150 operators, are available for firefighting across Australia."
Fleet | NAFC
Fleet | NAFC
We all know the 802’s and airboss’s are each awesome in their own right. With no info whatsoever in hand, I’m curious as to how the airboss’s stats stack up this year with total liters dropped from scoping ops. This should be your best indication of how useful CL415’s would probs wouldn’t be to some degree.
Thread Starter
You would need to do an inventory of suitable lakes, rivers, dams, bays, etc. You would also need to establish/design. approaches for each that takes into account known hazards (the wires over lake Eildon for example).
You would also need legislation requiring fishing and ski boats to keep clear during operations - we have had trouble with this already involving a stubborn fisherman on Lake Nilacootie during helicopter operations.
You would also need legislation requiring fishing and ski boats to keep clear during operations - we have had trouble with this already involving a stubborn fisherman on Lake Nilacootie during helicopter operations.
You would need to do an inventory of suitable lakes, rivers, dams, bays, etc. You would also need to establish/design. approaches for each that takes into account known hazards (the wires over lake Eildon for example).
You would also need legislation requiring fishing and ski boats to keep clear during operations - we have had trouble with this already involving a stubborn fisherman on Lake Nilacootie during helicopter operations.
You would also need legislation requiring fishing and ski boats to keep clear during operations - we have had trouble with this already involving a stubborn fisherman on Lake Nilacootie during helicopter operations.
Sunfish, you need to give pilots credit for being able to do you know, pilot stuff.
Thread Starter
Havick, the power lines across Eildon claimed 4 lives years ago, the lake is mostly surrounded by high terrain and it is a popular destination for boaters and fishermen. Trust me when I say you would need to survey the lakes in Victoria at least.
We have also already had trouble with stubborn fishermen getting in the way and there is currently no legislation that prevents them anchoring right on your best scooping zone.
Then there are obstacles like dead trees.
We have also already had trouble with stubborn fishermen getting in the way and there is currently no legislation that prevents them anchoring right on your best scooping zone.
Then there are obstacles like dead trees.