Buying Water Bombers For Australia?
http://warnesysworld.com/us-companie...x-raaf-ap-3cs/
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I'm not proposing the Orion but it may be a remote possibility. As I understand the museum aircraft they are still only on loan from the RAAF. Loans can be recalled?
My point is that an FAA certified dump system exists and is in use for both Orions and L188s.
Looking at the current L188 operators, they are moving to the Bae 146 aircraft and that seems to be the way to go,given hull availability and local experienced operators.
Wunwing
My point is that an FAA certified dump system exists and is in use for both Orions and L188s.
Looking at the current L188 operators, they are moving to the Bae 146 aircraft and that seems to be the way to go,given hull availability and local experienced operators.
Wunwing
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I think a major issue is most people think the RFS/CFA are "supplemented" with volunteers that fire fight.
The "firefighters" are the volunteers in the rural areas.
Urban firefighters get paid and work for Fire and Rescue and are responsible for fires in their boundaries. The similarity could be Fire and Rescue NSW and the airport fire service at Sydney airport, they are two completely separate things, but when things go bad they can support each other with "excess" resources but each must maintain it's minimum level of service to it's primary role. So the RFS does get some limited support during the fires but must maintain X resources to protect it's defined area and response times, leaving the RFS mostly using volunteers.
My personal opinion is RFS should have full time front line staff (equal to the number of police in that area as a start) and they are supplemented with volunteers.
As far as aircraft match the Canadian fleet and share them over the two seasons staggering if needed.
The "firefighters" are the volunteers in the rural areas.
Urban firefighters get paid and work for Fire and Rescue and are responsible for fires in their boundaries. The similarity could be Fire and Rescue NSW and the airport fire service at Sydney airport, they are two completely separate things, but when things go bad they can support each other with "excess" resources but each must maintain it's minimum level of service to it's primary role. So the RFS does get some limited support during the fires but must maintain X resources to protect it's defined area and response times, leaving the RFS mostly using volunteers.
My personal opinion is RFS should have full time front line staff (equal to the number of police in that area as a start) and they are supplemented with volunteers.
As far as aircraft match the Canadian fleet and share them over the two seasons staggering if needed.
Fire Rescue NSW has a mix of career and 'retained' (paid part time) staff.
NSW Parks also has full time and paid seasonal staff.
If there's a need for more paid firefighters then placing them in agencies that do currently employ them rather than fundamentally restructuring the RFS. You haven't explained why you think it's a necessary measure.
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Most of the back burning that was delayed/not performed at the beginning to this fire season was a result of the EPA not allowing them to go ahead due to potential smoke levels across Sydney. The models that were used are actually really well done and accurate, but it was the crew of ‘easily offended through social media’ that stopped back burns - not the greenies. None the less, plenty still went ahead.
National Parks has not got control over our back burns. It’s is all controlled ultimately by the RFS. The RFS support them and provide great numbers, but this also means mostly the window of opportunity will fall on a weekend when numbers are available and thus we have less options to complete the burn with weather windows. None the less, plenty still went ahead.
The bush is dry. Really, really dry. As has been detailed above, back burned areas at best this year have slowed, but have certainly not stopped fire spread. Burns have gone back through burnt areas etc and the most difficult part of all of this is that the whole tree has been igniting and burning very quickly - aiding spread.
Parks staff fire fight, in the bush, every year. They leave the roads and go very remote to contain things - usually before they become what we have seen this season. They do this every year. RFS wait down fire trails and back burn off of then. They need a more aggressive stance to fight fire in my opinion.
The RFS volunteers have done an amazing job, and should be held in very high regard as some of them are absolute heroes. We get paid to enter the fire ground, to do what they do for free and community spirit is a very commendable act.
Please don’t fly your private helicopter near the fire ground.
Seasonal tanker leasing is the way to go. Tankers do not put out fires. They can be used way more efficiently then they have been this year but a lot of lessons have been learned.
The armchair experts across the whole board of arguments in the community at the moment should go and volunteer to their local brigade, then they can earn an opinion on this stuff.
Please don’t donate to the RFS, they have a heap of red tape and bureaucracy that means you are essentially donating to the government.
Go and spend your money in affected areas, donate to wildlife rescues and most importantly, don’t forget those struggling with the drought - the cause of this season.
Ten bucks on Shane Fitz earning Australian of the Year in the year to come. Probably rightly so. A lot of the close to him deadweight deserve nothing of the sort.
These fires were massive. Occasionally **** happens and we are not prepared for next level events. This is one of those seasons unfortunately.
National Parks has not got control over our back burns. It’s is all controlled ultimately by the RFS. The RFS support them and provide great numbers, but this also means mostly the window of opportunity will fall on a weekend when numbers are available and thus we have less options to complete the burn with weather windows. None the less, plenty still went ahead.
The bush is dry. Really, really dry. As has been detailed above, back burned areas at best this year have slowed, but have certainly not stopped fire spread. Burns have gone back through burnt areas etc and the most difficult part of all of this is that the whole tree has been igniting and burning very quickly - aiding spread.
Parks staff fire fight, in the bush, every year. They leave the roads and go very remote to contain things - usually before they become what we have seen this season. They do this every year. RFS wait down fire trails and back burn off of then. They need a more aggressive stance to fight fire in my opinion.
The RFS volunteers have done an amazing job, and should be held in very high regard as some of them are absolute heroes. We get paid to enter the fire ground, to do what they do for free and community spirit is a very commendable act.
Please don’t fly your private helicopter near the fire ground.
Seasonal tanker leasing is the way to go. Tankers do not put out fires. They can be used way more efficiently then they have been this year but a lot of lessons have been learned.
The armchair experts across the whole board of arguments in the community at the moment should go and volunteer to their local brigade, then they can earn an opinion on this stuff.
Please don’t donate to the RFS, they have a heap of red tape and bureaucracy that means you are essentially donating to the government.
Go and spend your money in affected areas, donate to wildlife rescues and most importantly, don’t forget those struggling with the drought - the cause of this season.
Ten bucks on Shane Fitz earning Australian of the Year in the year to come. Probably rightly so. A lot of the close to him deadweight deserve nothing of the sort.
These fires were massive. Occasionally **** happens and we are not prepared for next level events. This is one of those seasons unfortunately.
Donations to the RFS are recieved by a trust fund with strict limits to how such funds can be spent and robust governance. Essentially the funds must be spent on items for volunteer use that would not otherwise be provided. Bizarre that you're patting them on the back while urging us not to acknowledge those efforts with a donation.
The RFS is a government agency..
Hopefully everyone will ignore your plea.
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I can recall that before Military assets are permitted to be called in to water bomb, that ALL contracted civilian assets must be activated and operational. From memory this was part of the agreement with civilian operators to ensure they would get called in for service and not miss a money making opportunity because the government instead used military assets. Many civilian operators relied upon the fire season to earn enough to cover the years overheads.
Made little sense watching a B206 fitted out for corporate work passengers, working with a small Bambi Bucket from NAS Nowra, whilst we had a SK-50 Seaking kitted with a Medium Bambi Bucket capable of holding double the water, and we could only use it on the Jervis Bay Range Facility fires as that was C'wealth ground.
Made little sense watching a B206 fitted out for corporate work passengers, working with a small Bambi Bucket from NAS Nowra, whilst we had a SK-50 Seaking kitted with a Medium Bambi Bucket capable of holding double the water, and we could only use it on the Jervis Bay Range Facility fires as that was C'wealth ground.
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I read this thread with interest. Great contributions.
Big Picture, Australia is subject to three global patterns that affect our weather, each with three phases: positive, neutral and negative:
- The El Nino Southern Oscillation, which in a negative phase causes drier weather in northern and eastern Australia. Oscillations from neutral are becoming more extreme and more frequent over time.
- The Indian Ocean Dipole, which in a positive phase causes drier weather in northwestern Australia. Conversely a negative IOD causes increased rainfall in the northwest, which is occasionally channeled south and southeast by subtropical troughs. Last year saw an extreme positive IOD, which has only recently ended. Incidentally positive and negative divergences from neutral are also becoming more extreme over time.
- The Southern Annular Mode, which in a positive phase draws the Roaring Forties and Furious Fifties winds further south, carrying rainbearing cold fronts away from southern Australia for weeks or months; but depending on season and ENSO, may conversely cause increased rainfall in eastern Auatralia.
The science and history shows that whenever we have two of these three patterns coinciding, it causes drier weather across large parts of Australia.
This fire season we had a confluence of El Nino for the last few years plus a very positive IOD last year, which has subsequently only recently eased. The result was extremely dry conditions to the extent that soil moisture in parts of southeastern Australia was - and in places still is - zero. The fire season started in southeast QLD in August. The traditional fire season starts in October/November and over time is becoming longer, narrowing the traditional hazard reduction burn window in the cooler months.
A friend recently returned from volunteer work in NT Aboriginal lands with an interesting story to tell. In NT, which incidentally has the largest proportion of Aboriginal land as a percentage of total State/Territory lands, cultural burns aim to burn a quarter of their land p.a. leaving a mosaic pattern of areas of varying fuel load. NT is one of the most lightning struck places on the planet. Fires started by dry lightning will only run as far as the most recently burned area, and when the wind eases overnight, they die out due to a lack of fuel and a lack of wind impetus. NT Aboriginal lands don't have volunteer fire brigades. They don't need them.
There is also the testimony of the first Europeans to explore inland southeast Australia, who described open woodland with fresh green fodder beneath and blackened tree trunks just about everywhere, as evidence of frequent low intensity cultural mosaic burning.They also described nomadic indigenous Australians burning wherever they wandered for firestick farming and as an indication of their location to other Aboriginal bands. Even Watkin Tench recorded in his diary of the almost constant smoke from fires observed as the First Fleet proceeded up the east coast to Botany Bay. That was in January 1788. We'll never know if those fires were from dry lightning or wandering Aboriginal bands or both or in what proportion. But in combination with the eyewitness testimony of Aboriginal fire practices by early Europeans, I question the modern idea that burning in summer is a flat-out no-no. What does the science and Aboriginal tradition have to say? Not sure of the science but our local Dharawal elder reckons that cool, low intensity fires clear the fuel loads and undergrowth of woody weeds, fertilise the land with their ash, promote the growth of fodder for native grazing animals, and the heat and smoke actually promotes rain and heavier dew, which suppresses the fires at night.
In 2016 the NSW Govt cut the NPWS and RFS budgets by over one third. NPWS is responsible for conservation and hazard reduction in NSW public lands, of which hazard reduction burns play a part. The budget cuts resulted in about 400 NPWS staff losing their jobs, mostly rangers. Presumably boots on the ground are essential for mapping fuel loads, planning and executing hazard reduction, and remote area fire fighting. The NPWS has a goal of burning 5% of public lands p.a. This they failed to do in 2016 and 2017. Even though the NPWS chief said they devoted ALL manpower to hazard reduction burns and abandoned their other core role of conservation. From memory I think they met their goal in 2018. Not sure of the figures for 2019. So no conservation work in NSW for the best part of 4 years, in a country with one of the highest extinction rates on the planet. But that's another subject.
Similarly, in recent years VIC has also failed to meet their own hazard reduction burn targets, as recommended by royal commission into previous catastrophic bushfires. This failure to hazard reduction burn in NSW and VIC coincided with an El Nino event and drought in southeast Australia over the same timeframe.
Given the experience in NT, and the records of first European explorers, and acknowledging that relatively flat NT savannah and open woodland is not remote mountainous forested southeast Australia, a goal to burn 5% p.a. of public lands is probably an inadequate target. That translates as a rule of thumb to areas being burned once in 20 years. That's a lot of time for hazardous fuel loads to build. And possibly the window of opportunity to burn in the cooler months is too narrow and also needs to be reconsidered.
Incidentally, QLD does not seem to have suffered nearly as badly as NSW and VIC this fire season. I note that QLD incorporates Aboriginal cultural burns into its land management practices, which is notably absent in NSW and VIC.
I also note eyewitness testimony of fires in the NSW/VIC high country, where areas that did not burn had been heavily grazed by brumbies. The brumby herd has quadrupled in recent years. Many are starving, and the herds are causing environmental damage which will only worsen as their numbers are further concentrated in the unburned areas. They need to be culled, both as a humane measure and an environmental one. However it raises an interesting counter-argument to the lockup of public lands preventing graziers from entering. Perhaps grazing could play its part in hazard reduction, in the absence of the estimated billion or more native grazing animals killed in these bushfires.
Additionally, locals in northern NSW forests note the change in forest composition over the last few decades. Poor (too intense) selective logging practices in State forests have resulted in a proliferation of palm trees, which in turn drop highly flammable fronds. These forests don't usually burn and are therefore not adapted to fire, however a combination of drought and fuel loads from palm fronds have set them up for destruction.
A colleague who lives inland of Port Macquarie applied to the local RFS to hazard reduction burn on his property last winter. He was told to fill in a bunch of forms and they'd be able to assist in 18 months. He spent the next 4 months hand-clearing a foot deep layer of fuel from the forest clearing in which his property is located, and the surrounding forest. His efforts saved his house and outbuildings. I heard on the radio one South Coast farmer complain he's still waiting for approval from the relevant NSW Govt department to hazard reduction burn on his own property... three years after appplying. THREE ******* YEARS? He lost his entire property in the recent fires. Anecdotally there's clearly an issue in NSW with bureaucracy and resourcing for hazard reduction.
Former fire chief Greg Mullins stated that State Fire Chiefs were not being honest with their Governments about what they needed right now, because they knew that in a bureaucratic game of get-square, they would have their funding in future years cut by the bureaucracies if they were to ask for more resources and funding now.
As to the role of the Federal Govt:
- A business case to increase funding for the National Aerial Firefighting Centre (which in turn sources aerial firefighting assets nationally and internationally) went nowhere for 18 months. Until of course the Federal Govt suffered harsh criticism for the failure to act, then it gets kicked through in a jiffy.
- The Labor Party at the last election promised $60 million to establish a (presumably Federal) permanent aerial firefighting unit of large air tankers and trained smoke jumpers (firefighters using dry methods to fight newly initiated fires). The Coalition failed to match it.
- The PM refused to meet current and former fire chiefs in March 2019, who sought to warn him of the impending fire season, presumably out of some misguided ideological resistance to any discussion of the role of climate change in natural disaster.
- Around the same time, the fire chiefs requested ADF assistance but were told by the PM words to the effect "The ADF fight wars, not bushfires". They weren't asking the ADF to fight the fires but to provide the many and varied support roles at which they excel. Meanwhile, I've read that the ADF were champing at the bit to assist and have been wargaming catastrophic bushfires.
- Joint Federal-State agency co-operation on bushfire response was cancelled in mid-2018.
- Meetings of Federal heads of department to discuss bushfire and national emergency response were halted.
- Federal department research on bushfires and other national weather / climate change related emergencies was never brought to ministers attention out of fear of funding to the programs being cut.
- The PM went AWOL at the height of a national emergency and his office failed to communicate the delegation of national leadership to the Invisible Man, deputy PM McCormack.
- When the PM finally mobilises the ADF and calls up the Reserves, no-one told the NSW Fire Commissioner. He finds out via the TV news. Then the PM blames the NSW Premier for failing to communicate it, having previously told the public that he was communicating directly with the State Fire Chiefs.
WHAT THE **** HAS AUSTRALIA COME TO?
To paraphrase ABC radio commentator Josh Szeps, if the country had come under attack by a foreign power that killed dozens of people, thousands of livestock and a billion native animals, destroyed hundreds of homes, businesses, farms and other buildings, thousands of km of fencing, and millions of hectares of lands, we would have called on allies to resist the attack, and to assist much sooner. I'd add if our Governments had *******-WELL LISTENED to the warnings we would have been vastly more prepared.
So in summary this fire season we had an extremely dry landscape and high fuel loads. This fire season was always going to be bad. Once the blazes were up and running, nothing was going to stop them. But we had governments manifestly unprepared for a situation that was predicted well in advance, and a landscape just waiting for the right conditions to explode. And those conditions eventuated. But it didn't have to be this way!
So the questions are:
- Would the fires have had the same intensity, causing the fires to crown, resulting in such devastatingly hot fires, with resultant convection producing massive updrafts to carry embers for kilometres and creating pyroCN, in turn igniting more fires; and dragging in their own strong inflows, further fanning the flames, had hazard reduction been far more widespread? I think the answer is no.
- Would they have been so numerous and widespread if we had remote IR sensing provided by satellite and ADF Global Hawks etc; dedicated quick response smoke jumper teams and a full suite of nationally and internationally sourced aerial assets to extinguish remote fires early before they grew to enormous size? I think the answer there is also a resounding no.
Unfortunately with regard to fuel loads, the genie is out of the bottle. We'll just have to wait until cooler months, and we receive widespread rainfall, and adequately research and resource hazard reduction burns in areas of mapped extremely high fuel loads.
From this thread it seems that contrary to my "belief" that LATs and other aerial firefighting assets were very effective, surprisingly the "evidence" is they actually aren't as effective as they look. It sure looks good on the news though. Very dramatic. Great for morale. But more of a niche asset. That said, there seems to be a place for them in a national firefighting system of systems. As northern and southern hemisphere firefighting seasons get longer and overlap, perhaps there's a place for a Federally funded sovereign controlled LAT and VLAT element and smoke jumpers that could either be leased to northern hemisphere countries or utilised in Australia for lighting and controlling widespread hazard reduction burns, and in the rare event of an early bushfire emergency, can be recalled to Australia.
I look forward with hope to the outcome of the recently announced royal commission. Probably misplaced given the almost 60 royal commissions and inquiries in as many years... And still we can't come to terms with fire in our landscape.
Big Picture, Australia is subject to three global patterns that affect our weather, each with three phases: positive, neutral and negative:
- The El Nino Southern Oscillation, which in a negative phase causes drier weather in northern and eastern Australia. Oscillations from neutral are becoming more extreme and more frequent over time.
- The Indian Ocean Dipole, which in a positive phase causes drier weather in northwestern Australia. Conversely a negative IOD causes increased rainfall in the northwest, which is occasionally channeled south and southeast by subtropical troughs. Last year saw an extreme positive IOD, which has only recently ended. Incidentally positive and negative divergences from neutral are also becoming more extreme over time.
- The Southern Annular Mode, which in a positive phase draws the Roaring Forties and Furious Fifties winds further south, carrying rainbearing cold fronts away from southern Australia for weeks or months; but depending on season and ENSO, may conversely cause increased rainfall in eastern Auatralia.
The science and history shows that whenever we have two of these three patterns coinciding, it causes drier weather across large parts of Australia.
This fire season we had a confluence of El Nino for the last few years plus a very positive IOD last year, which has subsequently only recently eased. The result was extremely dry conditions to the extent that soil moisture in parts of southeastern Australia was - and in places still is - zero. The fire season started in southeast QLD in August. The traditional fire season starts in October/November and over time is becoming longer, narrowing the traditional hazard reduction burn window in the cooler months.
A friend recently returned from volunteer work in NT Aboriginal lands with an interesting story to tell. In NT, which incidentally has the largest proportion of Aboriginal land as a percentage of total State/Territory lands, cultural burns aim to burn a quarter of their land p.a. leaving a mosaic pattern of areas of varying fuel load. NT is one of the most lightning struck places on the planet. Fires started by dry lightning will only run as far as the most recently burned area, and when the wind eases overnight, they die out due to a lack of fuel and a lack of wind impetus. NT Aboriginal lands don't have volunteer fire brigades. They don't need them.
There is also the testimony of the first Europeans to explore inland southeast Australia, who described open woodland with fresh green fodder beneath and blackened tree trunks just about everywhere, as evidence of frequent low intensity cultural mosaic burning.They also described nomadic indigenous Australians burning wherever they wandered for firestick farming and as an indication of their location to other Aboriginal bands. Even Watkin Tench recorded in his diary of the almost constant smoke from fires observed as the First Fleet proceeded up the east coast to Botany Bay. That was in January 1788. We'll never know if those fires were from dry lightning or wandering Aboriginal bands or both or in what proportion. But in combination with the eyewitness testimony of Aboriginal fire practices by early Europeans, I question the modern idea that burning in summer is a flat-out no-no. What does the science and Aboriginal tradition have to say? Not sure of the science but our local Dharawal elder reckons that cool, low intensity fires clear the fuel loads and undergrowth of woody weeds, fertilise the land with their ash, promote the growth of fodder for native grazing animals, and the heat and smoke actually promotes rain and heavier dew, which suppresses the fires at night.
In 2016 the NSW Govt cut the NPWS and RFS budgets by over one third. NPWS is responsible for conservation and hazard reduction in NSW public lands, of which hazard reduction burns play a part. The budget cuts resulted in about 400 NPWS staff losing their jobs, mostly rangers. Presumably boots on the ground are essential for mapping fuel loads, planning and executing hazard reduction, and remote area fire fighting. The NPWS has a goal of burning 5% of public lands p.a. This they failed to do in 2016 and 2017. Even though the NPWS chief said they devoted ALL manpower to hazard reduction burns and abandoned their other core role of conservation. From memory I think they met their goal in 2018. Not sure of the figures for 2019. So no conservation work in NSW for the best part of 4 years, in a country with one of the highest extinction rates on the planet. But that's another subject.
Similarly, in recent years VIC has also failed to meet their own hazard reduction burn targets, as recommended by royal commission into previous catastrophic bushfires. This failure to hazard reduction burn in NSW and VIC coincided with an El Nino event and drought in southeast Australia over the same timeframe.
Given the experience in NT, and the records of first European explorers, and acknowledging that relatively flat NT savannah and open woodland is not remote mountainous forested southeast Australia, a goal to burn 5% p.a. of public lands is probably an inadequate target. That translates as a rule of thumb to areas being burned once in 20 years. That's a lot of time for hazardous fuel loads to build. And possibly the window of opportunity to burn in the cooler months is too narrow and also needs to be reconsidered.
Incidentally, QLD does not seem to have suffered nearly as badly as NSW and VIC this fire season. I note that QLD incorporates Aboriginal cultural burns into its land management practices, which is notably absent in NSW and VIC.
I also note eyewitness testimony of fires in the NSW/VIC high country, where areas that did not burn had been heavily grazed by brumbies. The brumby herd has quadrupled in recent years. Many are starving, and the herds are causing environmental damage which will only worsen as their numbers are further concentrated in the unburned areas. They need to be culled, both as a humane measure and an environmental one. However it raises an interesting counter-argument to the lockup of public lands preventing graziers from entering. Perhaps grazing could play its part in hazard reduction, in the absence of the estimated billion or more native grazing animals killed in these bushfires.
Additionally, locals in northern NSW forests note the change in forest composition over the last few decades. Poor (too intense) selective logging practices in State forests have resulted in a proliferation of palm trees, which in turn drop highly flammable fronds. These forests don't usually burn and are therefore not adapted to fire, however a combination of drought and fuel loads from palm fronds have set them up for destruction.
A colleague who lives inland of Port Macquarie applied to the local RFS to hazard reduction burn on his property last winter. He was told to fill in a bunch of forms and they'd be able to assist in 18 months. He spent the next 4 months hand-clearing a foot deep layer of fuel from the forest clearing in which his property is located, and the surrounding forest. His efforts saved his house and outbuildings. I heard on the radio one South Coast farmer complain he's still waiting for approval from the relevant NSW Govt department to hazard reduction burn on his own property... three years after appplying. THREE ******* YEARS? He lost his entire property in the recent fires. Anecdotally there's clearly an issue in NSW with bureaucracy and resourcing for hazard reduction.
Former fire chief Greg Mullins stated that State Fire Chiefs were not being honest with their Governments about what they needed right now, because they knew that in a bureaucratic game of get-square, they would have their funding in future years cut by the bureaucracies if they were to ask for more resources and funding now.
As to the role of the Federal Govt:
- A business case to increase funding for the National Aerial Firefighting Centre (which in turn sources aerial firefighting assets nationally and internationally) went nowhere for 18 months. Until of course the Federal Govt suffered harsh criticism for the failure to act, then it gets kicked through in a jiffy.
- The Labor Party at the last election promised $60 million to establish a (presumably Federal) permanent aerial firefighting unit of large air tankers and trained smoke jumpers (firefighters using dry methods to fight newly initiated fires). The Coalition failed to match it.
- The PM refused to meet current and former fire chiefs in March 2019, who sought to warn him of the impending fire season, presumably out of some misguided ideological resistance to any discussion of the role of climate change in natural disaster.
- Around the same time, the fire chiefs requested ADF assistance but were told by the PM words to the effect "The ADF fight wars, not bushfires". They weren't asking the ADF to fight the fires but to provide the many and varied support roles at which they excel. Meanwhile, I've read that the ADF were champing at the bit to assist and have been wargaming catastrophic bushfires.
- Joint Federal-State agency co-operation on bushfire response was cancelled in mid-2018.
- Meetings of Federal heads of department to discuss bushfire and national emergency response were halted.
- Federal department research on bushfires and other national weather / climate change related emergencies was never brought to ministers attention out of fear of funding to the programs being cut.
- The PM went AWOL at the height of a national emergency and his office failed to communicate the delegation of national leadership to the Invisible Man, deputy PM McCormack.
- When the PM finally mobilises the ADF and calls up the Reserves, no-one told the NSW Fire Commissioner. He finds out via the TV news. Then the PM blames the NSW Premier for failing to communicate it, having previously told the public that he was communicating directly with the State Fire Chiefs.
WHAT THE **** HAS AUSTRALIA COME TO?
To paraphrase ABC radio commentator Josh Szeps, if the country had come under attack by a foreign power that killed dozens of people, thousands of livestock and a billion native animals, destroyed hundreds of homes, businesses, farms and other buildings, thousands of km of fencing, and millions of hectares of lands, we would have called on allies to resist the attack, and to assist much sooner. I'd add if our Governments had *******-WELL LISTENED to the warnings we would have been vastly more prepared.
So in summary this fire season we had an extremely dry landscape and high fuel loads. This fire season was always going to be bad. Once the blazes were up and running, nothing was going to stop them. But we had governments manifestly unprepared for a situation that was predicted well in advance, and a landscape just waiting for the right conditions to explode. And those conditions eventuated. But it didn't have to be this way!
So the questions are:
- Would the fires have had the same intensity, causing the fires to crown, resulting in such devastatingly hot fires, with resultant convection producing massive updrafts to carry embers for kilometres and creating pyroCN, in turn igniting more fires; and dragging in their own strong inflows, further fanning the flames, had hazard reduction been far more widespread? I think the answer is no.
- Would they have been so numerous and widespread if we had remote IR sensing provided by satellite and ADF Global Hawks etc; dedicated quick response smoke jumper teams and a full suite of nationally and internationally sourced aerial assets to extinguish remote fires early before they grew to enormous size? I think the answer there is also a resounding no.
Unfortunately with regard to fuel loads, the genie is out of the bottle. We'll just have to wait until cooler months, and we receive widespread rainfall, and adequately research and resource hazard reduction burns in areas of mapped extremely high fuel loads.
From this thread it seems that contrary to my "belief" that LATs and other aerial firefighting assets were very effective, surprisingly the "evidence" is they actually aren't as effective as they look. It sure looks good on the news though. Very dramatic. Great for morale. But more of a niche asset. That said, there seems to be a place for them in a national firefighting system of systems. As northern and southern hemisphere firefighting seasons get longer and overlap, perhaps there's a place for a Federally funded sovereign controlled LAT and VLAT element and smoke jumpers that could either be leased to northern hemisphere countries or utilised in Australia for lighting and controlling widespread hazard reduction burns, and in the rare event of an early bushfire emergency, can be recalled to Australia.
I look forward with hope to the outcome of the recently announced royal commission. Probably misplaced given the almost 60 royal commissions and inquiries in as many years... And still we can't come to terms with fire in our landscape.
A friend recently returned from volunteer work in NT Aboriginal lands with an interesting story to tell. In NT, which incidentally has the largest proportion of Aboriginal land as a percentage of total State/Territory lands, cultural burns aim to burn a quarter of their land p.a. leaving a mosaic pattern of areas of varying fuel load. NT is one of the most lightning struck places on the planet. Fires started by dry lightning will only run as far as the most recently burned area, and when the wind eases overnight, they die out due to a lack of fuel and a lack of wind impetus. NT Aboriginal lands don't have volunteer fire brigades. They don't need them.
There is also the testimony of the first Europeans to explore inland southeast Australia, who described open woodland with fresh green fodder beneath and blackened tree trunks just about everywhere, as evidence of frequent low intensity cultural mosaic burning.They also described nomadic indigenous Australians burning wherever they wandered for firestick farming and as an indication of their location to other Aboriginal bands. Even Watkin Tench recorded in his diary of the almost constant smoke from fires observed as the First Fleet proceeded up the east coast to Botany Bay. That was in January 1788. We'll never know if those fires were from dry lightning or wandering Aboriginal bands or both or in what proportion. But in combination with the eyewitness testimony of Aboriginal fire practices by early Europeans, I question the modern idea that burning in summer is a flat-out no-no. What does the science and Aboriginal tradition have to say? Not sure of the science but our local Dharawal elder reckons that cool, low intensity fires clear the fuel loads and undergrowth of woody weeds, fertilise the land with their ash, promote the growth of fodder for native grazing animals, and the heat and smoke actually promotes rain and heavier dew, which suppresses the fires at night.
There is also the testimony of the first Europeans to explore inland southeast Australia, who described open woodland with fresh green fodder beneath and blackened tree trunks just about everywhere, as evidence of frequent low intensity cultural mosaic burning.They also described nomadic indigenous Australians burning wherever they wandered for firestick farming and as an indication of their location to other Aboriginal bands. Even Watkin Tench recorded in his diary of the almost constant smoke from fires observed as the First Fleet proceeded up the east coast to Botany Bay. That was in January 1788. We'll never know if those fires were from dry lightning or wandering Aboriginal bands or both or in what proportion. But in combination with the eyewitness testimony of Aboriginal fire practices by early Europeans, I question the modern idea that burning in summer is a flat-out no-no. What does the science and Aboriginal tradition have to say? Not sure of the science but our local Dharawal elder reckons that cool, low intensity fires clear the fuel loads and undergrowth of woody weeds, fertilise the land with their ash, promote the growth of fodder for native grazing animals, and the heat and smoke actually promotes rain and heavier dew, which suppresses the fires at night.
There was a case in the NT a long time ago where the smoke was so bad that the Airmed King Air couldn't land due to poor visibility which resulted in the patient's death. Now imagine the hysteria if that happened in Sydney or Melbourne.
Personally I agree with you, control burning is the way to go unfortunately though politics and the short sighted Australian Public won't tolerate it. You might get away with it next year, but in about 5 years time all the bush will have grown back, noone will remember this year's bush fires, local members will get hounded about air pollution and problem will start again.
NSW RFS Chief:
Shane Fitzsimmons, the NSW Rural Fire Service commissioner, denied firefighters were restricted by environmental laws.
He explained that the biggest obstacle to controlled burning was the small window of opportunity they have in which to do it.
'We are environmentally conscious and law-abiding, we have streamlined processes.
'But I've got to say, the environmental clearances are invariably not our problem with hazard reduction burning.'
Of all the burns we have ready to go, 70-80% are cleared environmentally, just waiting for the right window of opportunity, and resourcing is a challenge.
He explained that the biggest obstacle to controlled burning was the small window of opportunity they have in which to do it.
'We are environmentally conscious and law-abiding, we have streamlined processes.
'But I've got to say, the environmental clearances are invariably not our problem with hazard reduction burning.'
Of all the burns we have ready to go, 70-80% are cleared environmentally, just waiting for the right window of opportunity, and resourcing is a challenge.
NSW Fire and Rescue Station Queanbeyan:
Political parties of any denomination do NOT influence the decisions of organisations like FRNSW, ACT Fire and Rescue, ACT and NSW Rural Fire Services and Parks and Wildlife Services when choosing when and how to do Hazard Reduction burns. It just doesn’t work like that. The main reason Hazard Reduction burns are cancelled or delayed is due to the predicted intensity of the burn exceeding the limits that would make it safe for firefighters, native flora and fauna and obviously you wonderful people.
Firefighter awarded medal for bravery:
Hazard reduction burns -
No, the Greens haven't been stopping hazard reduction burns from taking place. We still do them and yes we should absolutely do more of them.
Yes, the weather extremes and droughts have significantly reduced the window in which it is safe to perform these burns.
Yes, the state governments need to invest more money in HRB's. NSW for example, as an estimate, would need to increase their budget from $100million to a half billion, a five fold increase and that money needs to come from somewhere
No, the Greens haven't been stopping hazard reduction burns from taking place. We still do them and yes we should absolutely do more of them.
Yes, the weather extremes and droughts have significantly reduced the window in which it is safe to perform these burns.
Yes, the state governments need to invest more money in HRB's. NSW for example, as an estimate, would need to increase their budget from $100million to a half billion, a five fold increase and that money needs to come from somewhere
Greenie from hippie community in northern NSW who is also an RFS volunteer:
Nearly 50 per cent of our able adults are members of the Wytaliba RFS, a figure envied by many other brigades.
Over the last three years, in co-operation with NSW Forestry, National Parks and the RFS, we have had very extensive controlled burning in the state forest and national park on our perimeter. Carol (Greens Glen Innes mayor with 20 year RFS service medal) and I have a large cleared area around our double brick house.
Everything that should be done, was done and lots more.
Over the last three years, in co-operation with NSW Forestry, National Parks and the RFS, we have had very extensive controlled burning in the state forest and national park on our perimeter. Carol (Greens Glen Innes mayor with 20 year RFS service medal) and I have a large cleared area around our double brick house.
Everything that should be done, was done and lots more.
Our problem with HR burns is the RFS have closed the window of opportunity on us by extending the fire seasons.
As for water bombers there seem to be a heap of "new", well very shiney, Air tractors around. Two sitting at Jindabyne the other morning and three with floats at Cooma Airport.
As for water bombers there seem to be a heap of "new", well very shiney, Air tractors around. Two sitting at Jindabyne the other morning and three with floats at Cooma Airport.
Many will note I have been in favour of high frequency water bombing using the likes of the CL415 and still cannot understand why the penchant for VLATs other than to look good for the nightly news. BUT, I have started to return to the idea that these fires are controlled by huge slow moving bureaucracies where, in the past, fires were managed by local brigades. Hazard reduction burning in local conditions when the weather is right. Anyone ever see a cane paddock lit up? The allotted paddock lit up in less than an hour from start to finish. Spectacular when lit close to evening...Local fire captains used to do the same thing. I have watched them light up a 100acre block straddling a ridge line and have it burn in from three sides and extinguish itself against a manned break. The fire goes off with a quite stunning mushroom cloud..hint! Limited windows available for burning off is BS of the highest order. High pressure systems no longer pass over our landmass? High pressure systems do not subscribe to bureaucratic punctuality! I am not very good at ripping off png pictures from articles but I suggest everyone have a look at the image on this page. You will see the effects of a wildfire on one side of the photo. Canopy fire so must have been pretty hot. In the middle, a backburn operation from a fire break and untouched forest saved from the fire. This is what fireys used to do with nothing but a piece of burlap bag on a stick and the odd knapsack full of water. Back in the day, they were not scared to put a D9 into the bush to push a two blade wide break (That is over 10m!) across a ridgeline or through unburnt country before the firefront...all the while fire crews were pinching in the sides of the fire to stop it spreading out. My Dad was a kid in 39 up the Rose River. He vividly remembers the lines of men, marching up Dead Horse Gap with nothing but fire rakes, burlap bags and knapsacks. These current fires are being prosecuted so a huge bureaucracy can manage the attack, or lack there of. Evacuations...never heard of before these events...to save human life. Huge armies of firefighters with huge camps set up to rest, replenish and rotate them for a very extended period of time. The worst bit, why are volunteer crews being used way outside of their areas? Surely there are enough crews in the immediate fire zone...or is there something not being told? I have a cousin who is a fire captain in the south east of NSW. He and his crews have quit the RFS because of the inane management. He was told to leave burning houses in his town ship to go up the road and wait for instructions. He lost his own house and sheds, they have now set up their own appliance and are operating outside the control of the RFS. This is one story of many that I have heard about. just that it is a family member involved. Something is rotten within the management of the various fire authorities. My Dad looks at fires around Corowa and frets that things that used to be done are no longer done. So, my mind has turned, before we call in the aerial assets, have we done EVERYTHING possible to reduce the ferocity of these beasts BEFORE they do get going? Remember! To a hammer, every problem is a nail..Big fire bureaucracies need big fires to justify themselves. A fire burning for months must be questioned on the grounds of lack of access, fuel load management, and local knowledge
That old myth again. It’s a blatant lie and has been debunked by credible people involved with firefighting, from Fire Chiefs down to local volunteer firefighters.
They are blaming a reduced window of opportunity for controlled burns and a lack of funding. They are the experts and they know what the reality is.
That old myth again. It’s a blatant lie and has been debunked by credible people involved with firefighting, from Fire Chiefs down to local volunteer firefighters.
That aside even if you took the opposite view and burned the National Parks like it was 1788, it would be the general population that would be up in arms about air pollution every year, so it is an unwinnable war for any government.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 6th Feb 2020 at 01:47.
Like the articles I posted stated those authoritative voices from the firefighting community are blaming a lower window of opportunity to carry out controlled burns and problems with resourcing/funding.
Why do you have such an obsession to place a large proportion or all of the blame for this crisis on “greenies” when all the experts involved in firefighting aren’t blaming them at all? It seems you are more obsessed with point scoring against your politcial enemies rather than listening to what the credible firefighters are saying.
If there’s any frustration being directed at them it’s wrong, and I would hasten to say a deliberate effort at political and media point scoring and deflection away from the real problems firefighters are facing.
Last edited by dr dre; 6th Feb 2020 at 02:19.
We all know why the Aboriginals burned the land. The first tv pictures of newly introduced controlled burns that resulted in crispy kangaroos, wombats, or koalas and it will stop straight away again.
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 6th Feb 2020 at 08:26.
It seems you are more obsessed with point scoring against your politcial enemies rather than listening to what the credible firefighters are saying.
They could start at Nowa Nowa.
We have learned naught from past history.
Let's tell the Burning Truth
Thread Starter
What prolapse said......
‘’YES IT. IS THE EFFING GREENS.’
’
The laborials are so concerned about green votes that they adopted their environmental policies.
1. Our local council refuses to allow the removal of dead killer trees because they say they are habitat trees for animals, at least until they burn. We have two outside our local fire station and we can’t remove them!
2. State governments are lazy know nothings whose inner city policy staff know SFA about the bush.
Example: Near me is a 23km long dirt road which is dotted with bush camping sites. It receives 90,000 visitors per year. It’s not unusual to have upwards of 5000 campers on a holiday long weekend.
The road is a dead end. The whole area is a fire trap - impossible to defend or attack a fire. Fire trucks will collide with idiots trying to flee if there is a fire. We have pleaded with state and local government to at least seal the road and build NSPs at regular intervals - no result.
3. The academics and officials are telling half truths. Yes, Fuel reduction burns probably don’t help in a catastrophic crowning fire. However you won’t get a catastrophic fire if you have removed most of the fuel in the first place.
4. There is no way you can afford permanent paid rural firefighters to cover any state. Victoria has 35,000 volunteers. Smothering even a small grassfire (400 acres) may take twenty tankers that need to be on scene within minutes.
5. Do the basic maths. The bush is ALWAYS going to burn. You get to choose when if you are lucky. You can choose low intensity fuel reduction burns or catastrophe - your choice.......and **** sydney and melbourne air quality concerns.
To put that in terms a greenie might understand, IF THERE IS NO FUEL ON THE FOREST FLOOR, YOU CANT GET A CATASTROPHIC FIRE!
If we don’t learn this lesson, the next big one is going to leave thousands dead.
‘’YES IT. IS THE EFFING GREENS.’
’
The laborials are so concerned about green votes that they adopted their environmental policies.
1. Our local council refuses to allow the removal of dead killer trees because they say they are habitat trees for animals, at least until they burn. We have two outside our local fire station and we can’t remove them!
2. State governments are lazy know nothings whose inner city policy staff know SFA about the bush.
Example: Near me is a 23km long dirt road which is dotted with bush camping sites. It receives 90,000 visitors per year. It’s not unusual to have upwards of 5000 campers on a holiday long weekend.
The road is a dead end. The whole area is a fire trap - impossible to defend or attack a fire. Fire trucks will collide with idiots trying to flee if there is a fire. We have pleaded with state and local government to at least seal the road and build NSPs at regular intervals - no result.
3. The academics and officials are telling half truths. Yes, Fuel reduction burns probably don’t help in a catastrophic crowning fire. However you won’t get a catastrophic fire if you have removed most of the fuel in the first place.
4. There is no way you can afford permanent paid rural firefighters to cover any state. Victoria has 35,000 volunteers. Smothering even a small grassfire (400 acres) may take twenty tankers that need to be on scene within minutes.
5. Do the basic maths. The bush is ALWAYS going to burn. You get to choose when if you are lucky. You can choose low intensity fuel reduction burns or catastrophe - your choice.......and **** sydney and melbourne air quality concerns.
To put that in terms a greenie might understand, IF THERE IS NO FUEL ON THE FOREST FLOOR, YOU CANT GET A CATASTROPHIC FIRE!
If we don’t learn this lesson, the next big one is going to leave thousands dead.
Yeah, an opinion piece by Miranda Devine is really going to convince me the fire chiefs in NSW and Victoria, local fire brigades across NSW and individual firefighters are bunch of idiots who can’t see the “green menace” in front of their eyes...../s
Last edited by dr dre; 7th Feb 2020 at 02:28.