Buying Water Bombers For Australia?
The CL415 wouldn't work here- we don't have enough open bodies of water for it to scoop, and it is to slow/expensive to use as a land based asset.
Canadair's Firefighting Aircraft QI2 Could It Be Useful In Australia ?
Australian bush fire fighters will not begin to appreciate the support and increased personal safety the SuperScooper will provide until they work a frre with the planes overhead.
Aerial frrefighting for bush fires has largely been confined to fixed-wing agricultural aircraft and helicopters, both of which have an important continuing role to play in the fight against bush fires. These aircraft have some very real advantages, but they also have some very real disadvantages, which include limited payload, ground-based operations and flying weather restrictions.
While the most effective way to utilize the punch of the SuperScooper is by early detection and rapid response - hitting the fire with a massive drop of Class A frre fighting foam to allow fire fighters direct access to the fire - the aircraft will continue to operate effectively when frre intensity and extreme weather have grounded all other aircraft.
The greatest frre threat facing Australia is not amongst the valuable forest plantations scattered around the States, but from the burgeoning urban I bush interface sprawl which was exposed in no uncertain terms during the NSW fires recently. Once the risk was confirmed to the Adelaide Hills, the Dandenong Ranges, and the Blue Mountains, but it has now become apparent that no urban bush land settlement, whether it be in outskirts of Perth or Brisbane, or in Lane Cove, is exempt from the risk of a high intensity and devastatingly fierce bush fire.
Arguments that all aircraft would be grounded during a fire of "Ash Wednesday" intensity are incorrect; extreme weather conditions and high intensity fires are certainly the order of the day, but there are many windows of opportunity during firefighting operations in extreme conditions where the sheer ruggedness of the purpose-built aerial fire fighter enables it to fly and fight. Fire fighters on the ground do not all go home just because the fire intensity is beyond 3OOOkW/m where it is assumed ground forces are ineffective. During the Ash Wednesday frres in South Australia in 1983, Canadair aircraft could have been flying almost continuously- after all, Rescue 1, the State Rescue Helicopter, a Bell205, flew around the Adelaide Hills throughout the worst periods.
In any event the fundamental purpose of the SuperScooper is to put out bush fires before they rage out of controL One of the biggest criticisms of the aircraft is the supposed lack of water sources suitable for scooping. The fact is that there is more scoopable water adjacent to high risk areas (see attached maps) than the detractors would have you believe. In many, many cases, a quick survey of your fire district will indicate that scooping water is available.
The combined national firefighting forces which responded to the New South Wales fires could have been very effectively supported by Canadair aircraft. For example, the fire which almost destroyed Winmalee in the Blue Mountains could have been controlled two days before the fire reached the urban area. Scooping from the Nepean river, and with a flying distance of23 kilometers to Mt. Wilson,
2 CL-215's could have dropped at least 188,000 liters of firefighting foam on the fire before nightfall on Thursday, leaving fire crews to trek in to the fire site the next morning to black out the fire completely. Instead, nearly three days passed, with a very risky backburn conducted, before the frre hit Winmalee with terrifying force.
To the north, in the Banyabba Nature Reserve, Bush Fire units had to drive for four hours before reaching the fire front whereas two CL-215's could have dropped a conservative 288,000 liters of fire fighting foam per day on the fire.
Firefighting in urban fringe areas and in national parks frequently means that fire fighters cannot attack the fire front with safety because it is located in dangerously inaccessible terrain. They are forced to light backburns, which are a big risk in themselves, or wait until it reaches roads and tracks, at which time the intensity is well beyond the ability of ground forces to control. The advantage of initial attack is lost because of the inability to access the frre, and frre fighters watch in frustration and growing fear as the frre approaches homes and threatens lives. It is in these circumstances that the SuperScooper can provide its greatest support; rapid attack with huge quantities of fire suppressant long before the fire threatens lives and properties, enabling fire fighters to extinguish the frre without extreme personal risk.
Australian bush fire fighters will not begin to appreciate the support and increased personal safety the SuperScooper will provide until they work a frre with the planes overhead.
Aerial frrefighting for bush fires has largely been confined to fixed-wing agricultural aircraft and helicopters, both of which have an important continuing role to play in the fight against bush fires. These aircraft have some very real advantages, but they also have some very real disadvantages, which include limited payload, ground-based operations and flying weather restrictions.
While the most effective way to utilize the punch of the SuperScooper is by early detection and rapid response - hitting the fire with a massive drop of Class A frre fighting foam to allow fire fighters direct access to the fire - the aircraft will continue to operate effectively when frre intensity and extreme weather have grounded all other aircraft.
The greatest frre threat facing Australia is not amongst the valuable forest plantations scattered around the States, but from the burgeoning urban I bush interface sprawl which was exposed in no uncertain terms during the NSW fires recently. Once the risk was confirmed to the Adelaide Hills, the Dandenong Ranges, and the Blue Mountains, but it has now become apparent that no urban bush land settlement, whether it be in outskirts of Perth or Brisbane, or in Lane Cove, is exempt from the risk of a high intensity and devastatingly fierce bush fire.
Arguments that all aircraft would be grounded during a fire of "Ash Wednesday" intensity are incorrect; extreme weather conditions and high intensity fires are certainly the order of the day, but there are many windows of opportunity during firefighting operations in extreme conditions where the sheer ruggedness of the purpose-built aerial fire fighter enables it to fly and fight. Fire fighters on the ground do not all go home just because the fire intensity is beyond 3OOOkW/m where it is assumed ground forces are ineffective. During the Ash Wednesday frres in South Australia in 1983, Canadair aircraft could have been flying almost continuously- after all, Rescue 1, the State Rescue Helicopter, a Bell205, flew around the Adelaide Hills throughout the worst periods.
In any event the fundamental purpose of the SuperScooper is to put out bush fires before they rage out of controL One of the biggest criticisms of the aircraft is the supposed lack of water sources suitable for scooping. The fact is that there is more scoopable water adjacent to high risk areas (see attached maps) than the detractors would have you believe. In many, many cases, a quick survey of your fire district will indicate that scooping water is available.
The combined national firefighting forces which responded to the New South Wales fires could have been very effectively supported by Canadair aircraft. For example, the fire which almost destroyed Winmalee in the Blue Mountains could have been controlled two days before the fire reached the urban area. Scooping from the Nepean river, and with a flying distance of23 kilometers to Mt. Wilson,
2 CL-215's could have dropped at least 188,000 liters of firefighting foam on the fire before nightfall on Thursday, leaving fire crews to trek in to the fire site the next morning to black out the fire completely. Instead, nearly three days passed, with a very risky backburn conducted, before the frre hit Winmalee with terrifying force.
To the north, in the Banyabba Nature Reserve, Bush Fire units had to drive for four hours before reaching the fire front whereas two CL-215's could have dropped a conservative 288,000 liters of fire fighting foam per day on the fire.
Firefighting in urban fringe areas and in national parks frequently means that fire fighters cannot attack the fire front with safety because it is located in dangerously inaccessible terrain. They are forced to light backburns, which are a big risk in themselves, or wait until it reaches roads and tracks, at which time the intensity is well beyond the ability of ground forces to control. The advantage of initial attack is lost because of the inability to access the frre, and frre fighters watch in frustration and growing fear as the frre approaches homes and threatens lives. It is in these circumstances that the SuperScooper can provide its greatest support; rapid attack with huge quantities of fire suppressant long before the fire threatens lives and properties, enabling fire fighters to extinguish the frre without extreme personal risk.
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Originally Posted by Wunwing
Here is a solution to funding the aircraft. All new coal mines must contribute to the funding to a total of all that we need?????
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There are a myriad of reasons why Australia is in the situation it is.
This is undoubtedly a large part of it.
The Evidence Brief For A Climate Trials Case Against Abbott, Turnbull, and Morrison - Situation Theatre
This is undoubtedly a large part of it.
The Evidence Brief For A Climate Trials Case Against Abbott, Turnbull, and Morrison - Situation Theatre
Of interest from the 1939 Royal Commission into the VIC Bushfires. The Condition of the Forests.— When the early settlers came to what is now this State, they found for the greater part a clean forest. Apparently for many years before their arrival, the forest had not been scourged by fire. They were in their natural state.
Their canopies had prevented the growth of scrub and bracken to any wide extent. They were open and traversible by men, beasts and wagons. Compared with their present condition, they were safe. But the white men introduce fire to the forests.
They burned the floor to promote the growth of grass and to clear it of scrub which had grown where, for whatever reason, the balance of nature had broken down. The fire stimulated grass growth, but it encouraged scrub growth far more.
Thus was begun the cycle of destruction which can not be arrested in our day. The scrub grew and flourished, fire was used to clear it, the scrub grew faster and thicker, bush fires, caused by the careless or designing hand of man, ravaged the forests; the canopy was impaired, more scrub grew and prospered, and again the cleansing agent, fire, was used.
And so to*day, in places where our forefathers rode, driving their herds and flocks before them, the wombat and wallaby are hard put to it to find passage through the bush.
I say of interest as I also believed in reduction burns
Their canopies had prevented the growth of scrub and bracken to any wide extent. They were open and traversible by men, beasts and wagons. Compared with their present condition, they were safe. But the white men introduce fire to the forests.
They burned the floor to promote the growth of grass and to clear it of scrub which had grown where, for whatever reason, the balance of nature had broken down. The fire stimulated grass growth, but it encouraged scrub growth far more.
Thus was begun the cycle of destruction which can not be arrested in our day. The scrub grew and flourished, fire was used to clear it, the scrub grew faster and thicker, bush fires, caused by the careless or designing hand of man, ravaged the forests; the canopy was impaired, more scrub grew and prospered, and again the cleansing agent, fire, was used.
And so to*day, in places where our forefathers rode, driving their herds and flocks before them, the wombat and wallaby are hard put to it to find passage through the bush.
I say of interest as I also believed in reduction burns
Firstly, that's ridiculous logic as it doesn't matter how they start, the drought/heat/fuel allows them to become catastrophic.
But then there's your lame attempt to re-habilitate your position with "evidence"- did the fire these two teenagers started become a catastrophic fire-storm killing people and destroying property? No? Not really what we're talking about then, is it?
Most of the back burning that was delayed/not performed at the beginning to this fire season was a result of the EPA not allowing them to go ahead due to potential smoke levels across Sydney. The models that were used are actually really well done and accurate, but it was the crew of ‘easily offended through social media’ that stopped back burns - not the greenies. None the less, plenty still went ahead.
National Parks has not got control over our back burns. It’s is all controlled ultimately by the RFS. The RFS support them and provide great numbers, but this also means mostly the window of opportunity will fall on a weekend when numbers are available and thus we have less options to complete the burn with weather windows. None the less, plenty still went ahead.
The bush is dry. Really, really dry. As has been detailed above, back burned areas at best this year have slowed, but have certainly not stopped fire spread. Burns have gone back through burnt areas etc and the most difficult part of all of this is that the whole tree has been igniting and burning very quickly - aiding spread.
Parks staff fire fight, in the bush, every year. They leave the roads and go very remote to contain things - usually before they become what we have seen this season. They do this every year. RFS wait down fire trails and back burn off of then. They need a more aggressive stance to fight fire in my opinion.
The RFS volunteers have done an amazing job, and should be held in very high regard as some of them are absolute heroes. We get paid to enter the fire ground, to do what they do for free and community spirit is a very commendable act.
Please don’t fly your private helicopter near the fire ground.
Seasonal tanker leasing is the way to go. Tankers do not put out fires. They can be used way more efficiently then they have been this year but a lot of lessons have been learned.
The armchair experts across the whole board of arguments in the community at the moment should go and volunteer to their local brigade, then they can earn an opinion on this stuff.
Please don’t donate to the RFS, they have a heap of red tape and bureaucracy that means you are essentially donating to the government.
Go and spend your money in affected areas, donate to wildlife rescues and most importantly, don’t forget those struggling with the drought - the cause of this season.
Ten bucks on Shane Fitz earning Australian of the Year in the year to come. Probably rightly so. A lot of the close to him deadweight deserve nothing of the sort.
These fires were massive. Occasionally **** happens and we are not prepared for next level events. This is one of those seasons unfortunately.
National Parks has not got control over our back burns. It’s is all controlled ultimately by the RFS. The RFS support them and provide great numbers, but this also means mostly the window of opportunity will fall on a weekend when numbers are available and thus we have less options to complete the burn with weather windows. None the less, plenty still went ahead.
The bush is dry. Really, really dry. As has been detailed above, back burned areas at best this year have slowed, but have certainly not stopped fire spread. Burns have gone back through burnt areas etc and the most difficult part of all of this is that the whole tree has been igniting and burning very quickly - aiding spread.
Parks staff fire fight, in the bush, every year. They leave the roads and go very remote to contain things - usually before they become what we have seen this season. They do this every year. RFS wait down fire trails and back burn off of then. They need a more aggressive stance to fight fire in my opinion.
The RFS volunteers have done an amazing job, and should be held in very high regard as some of them are absolute heroes. We get paid to enter the fire ground, to do what they do for free and community spirit is a very commendable act.
Please don’t fly your private helicopter near the fire ground.
Seasonal tanker leasing is the way to go. Tankers do not put out fires. They can be used way more efficiently then they have been this year but a lot of lessons have been learned.
The armchair experts across the whole board of arguments in the community at the moment should go and volunteer to their local brigade, then they can earn an opinion on this stuff.
Please don’t donate to the RFS, they have a heap of red tape and bureaucracy that means you are essentially donating to the government.
Go and spend your money in affected areas, donate to wildlife rescues and most importantly, don’t forget those struggling with the drought - the cause of this season.
Ten bucks on Shane Fitz earning Australian of the Year in the year to come. Probably rightly so. A lot of the close to him deadweight deserve nothing of the sort.
These fires were massive. Occasionally **** happens and we are not prepared for next level events. This is one of those seasons unfortunately.
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Aerial firefighting aircraft do not put out fires. They support suppression/containment lines to an extent. They're very expensive to operate, and, except for trials continuing in Victoria - do not operate at night, where they would be more valuable.
It would be cost-prohibitive to purchase large tanker aircraft. And the time between dump, return, refill and return is significant. They would be unutilised. These aircraft rotate around the world during northern and southern summers to fight global fire campaigns.
In some instances - aircraft are sent only to pacify community against actual fire suppression value. The best methods are the rapal guys that jump out of helicopters and do controlled burning. They're highly effective.
It would be cost-prohibitive to purchase large tanker aircraft. And the time between dump, return, refill and return is significant. They would be unutilised. These aircraft rotate around the world during northern and southern summers to fight global fire campaigns.
In some instances - aircraft are sent only to pacify community against actual fire suppression value. The best methods are the rapal guys that jump out of helicopters and do controlled burning. They're highly effective.
Sure you might be able to squeeze one down between the M4 bridge and the Victoria bridge, near 3 km stretch of wide enough river between the bridges...with a few lots of power lines going across.
Thread Starter
Wilson has a set of power lines that have already killed aviators, plus you would need to enforce a no boating zone to make space. Same with lake nihlacootie.
Exits to both in the event of engine failure would be problematic, as would low level turbulence in northerlies.
Exits to both in the event of engine failure would be problematic, as would low level turbulence in northerlies.
Just looking at google maps the stretch between power lines (with no markers on them) and the new tall foot bridge would be somewhere around 1600m, add 100m to the old Victoria bridge if we are to go back to that claim from a decade ago.
Claims I can find online mention around 1400m for a CL415 to get from 15m, scoop and get back to 15m...be one sporty pilot near kissing the wires on the way down just to see a 30 odd meter tall bridge structure coming up rather fast through the window!
Claims I can find online mention around 1400m for a CL415 to get from 15m, scoop and get back to 15m...be one sporty pilot near kissing the wires on the way down just to see a 30 odd meter tall bridge structure coming up rather fast through the window!
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https://volunteerfirefighters.org.au/water-bombing-and...
In particular this part.
"My frustration over all this is made more acute by re-reading the analysis of the trials of the DC10 VLAT by the CSIRO. After a number of water dropping trials, the CSIRO concluded:
Most of the drops featured a distinct pattern of break-up of the drop cloud in which a series of alternating thick and thin sections could be seen. The resulting drop footprints exhibited a corresponding pattern of heavy and light sections of coverage. Many of the light-coverage sections within the footprints were observed to allow the fire to pass across them with minimal slowing of spread rates.
Two drops delivered in open woodlands (as opposed to heavy forest) penetrated through the canopy and provided a good coverage of surface fuels. One of these drops rained gently through the canopy under the influence of a headwind. Another drop caused severe damage, snapping off trees …This drop could have potentially injured people or damaged buildings …
The CSIRO scientists also looked at the effectiveness of the DC10 dropping fire-retardant chemicals in the forest across the path of the headfire, a technique frequently recommended by supporters of aerial tankers. They concluded that this approach would only succeed for very low intensity fires, due to the ease with which a more intense fire would “spot” over the retardant line.
Overall, the CSIRO’s conclusion of this study was that:
…on the evidence collected, this aircraft is not suitable for achieving effective [bushfire] suppression under most Australian conditions. "
In particular this part.
"My frustration over all this is made more acute by re-reading the analysis of the trials of the DC10 VLAT by the CSIRO. After a number of water dropping trials, the CSIRO concluded:
Most of the drops featured a distinct pattern of break-up of the drop cloud in which a series of alternating thick and thin sections could be seen. The resulting drop footprints exhibited a corresponding pattern of heavy and light sections of coverage. Many of the light-coverage sections within the footprints were observed to allow the fire to pass across them with minimal slowing of spread rates.
Two drops delivered in open woodlands (as opposed to heavy forest) penetrated through the canopy and provided a good coverage of surface fuels. One of these drops rained gently through the canopy under the influence of a headwind. Another drop caused severe damage, snapping off trees …This drop could have potentially injured people or damaged buildings …
The CSIRO scientists also looked at the effectiveness of the DC10 dropping fire-retardant chemicals in the forest across the path of the headfire, a technique frequently recommended by supporters of aerial tankers. They concluded that this approach would only succeed for very low intensity fires, due to the ease with which a more intense fire would “spot” over the retardant line.
Overall, the CSIRO’s conclusion of this study was that:
…on the evidence collected, this aircraft is not suitable for achieving effective [bushfire] suppression under most Australian conditions. "