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Buying Water Bombers For Australia?

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Buying Water Bombers For Australia?

Old 16th Jan 2020, 21:11
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by The Shovel View Post
Easy fix. Pay the local Fireries to do it during the week.
​​​​​​In NSW, that's what Forestry Corporation and NPWS firefighters used to do before most of them were made redundant a few years ago.

Hazard reduction burning isn't a magic bullet. It helps, but the suggestion that if you HR burn everything all the time you're not going to have massive bushfires is pure idiocy. It's not going to burn all the fuel, even if you did have perfect weather and infinite manpower to safely burn everything every year (which we don't.)

When you get a bunch of wet years, followed by a bunch of dry years, this is what's going to happen. And it's going to happen more frequently with a changing climate and a warming planet.

I've been fighting fires down the south coast for much of the past two months.
We've had fire rip through spots we had back burned two days before, and the answer for this is simple physics. A crowning eucalyptus fire at 70000kW/m2 is going to burn a lot of fuel that a mild 500W/m2 backburn or HR burn isn't going to consume.

We've also had cases where burning roots and stumps left in the ground have ignited leaf matter and bark that has fallen to the ground after the previous fire has gone through, starting another one.

​​​​​There was a running grass fire where fire went through the same spot twice in five days. The top of the grass burned, leaving the grass below exposed to dry out. That grass too eventually went up.

Last edited by bankrunner; 16th Jan 2020 at 21:24.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 21:19
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by Torres View Post
Would love to see anyone trying to put heavy water bombers on the Australian register and operate under an Australian AOC............. CASA would have a field day.
Then donít. Let the RAAF have them.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 21:22
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by Chocks Away View Post
Let me put some facts on the table here.
There isn't a single fact in this post. There is, however, a lot of Alex Jones conspiracy theory type stuff. I won't try and address any but the most ignorant points.

Originally Posted by Chocks Away View Post
1) there were not so many F'n arsonists lighting these fires Australia wide (183 arrested already with >200 total sought so far...);
That figure is a fabrication, and you know it. 24 arsonists have been charged this year, and none of the large campaign fires going at the moment we're started by arson.

Originally Posted by Chocks Away View Post
2) The Greens/Labour hadn't locked up the National Parks from grazing, backburns and locked/let firetrails overgrow for the sake of "habitat';
For a party that's never been in power anywhere, ever, those greens are pretty powerful eh?

Bushfire abatement works are effectively exempt from environmental legislation. Always have been. Safety wins every time.

Open nation parks up for grazing? You'd never see your sheep again and your cows would starve. You'd also destroy the ecosystems that places like Canberra rely on for their water supplies.

Originally Posted by Chocks Away View Post
3) Farmers weren't fined by local muppet Local Councils for hazaed reduction on there own land!
In my old brigade, about 30% of our callouts every year were illegal burns lit by idiot farmers that had gotten away.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 21:36
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by Wunwing View Post
Firstly air crew would have to be paid. You just don't fly a B737 or anything else as a part timer.
No reason they couldn't be full timers. We pay the AMSA crews year round and they fly what, 150 hours a year?

With the bombers flying non stop during fire season and doing a bit of training in the off season, over a year they'd probably average the same sort of utilisation.

After a season like this one the B737 bomber crews might even find more hours in their logbook at the end of the year than the AMSA guys.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 22:52
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
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The heart of the issue is that any solution (more waterbombers, more permanent fire staff, more hazard reduction, volunteer incentives, maybe even relocation of people out of high risk fire areas?) is going to cost a lot of money (itíll be half a billion dollars for the hazard reduction burns advised by experts in NSW alone).

Itís a complicated problem and thereís no real answer to it except for large increases in spending, are we as a nation prepared to do it?
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 22:52
  #26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Fogliner View Post
AT 802 fireboss, MAAFS systems for C 130, Canadair CL 415, All viable options in my opinion. Went through this a few years back when BC was on fire in Canada.
Wondered why our military wasn't utilizing the Herc's with the MAAFS Modules a lot more.
Would it not be good to provide our Military pilots with flying hours doing firefighting work rather than just parking them or flying non critical missions to stay current?

I don't have pictures at hand (and I am not sure they are releasable but I will check) but the combination MAAFS systems and C-130 is a VERY bad combination for the C-130. A user of this combination back in the mid 80's ended up grounding one or two C-130 (carrying MAAFSbecause of the corrosion.

Australia will make much better use of those Beriev Be-200 Altair with their water scooping ability and higher speed.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 22:56
  #27 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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LIGHTNING starts most major fires. The CFA doesn’t do fuel reduction burns, the professionals do. The Greens haven’t been in power because labor and liberal governments have pandered to their supporters by adopting the greens nutty environmental policies.

Our CFA station is also an NSP. it’s surrounded by dead killer trees and the council won’t let us remove them because they are habitat trees - until the next fire.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 22:56
  #28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bankrunner View Post
No reason they couldn't be full timers. We pay the AMSA crews year round and they fly what, 150 hours a year?
We already have a system that could form the basis of scheme. The reserves, it would take a federal govt that wants to stand up and want to get involved (both politically and financially) and of course legislation change. But it has all the fundamental required for both a full time and an as required force

Purchase of some 737 tankers, they are common plane, ground crew, aircrew spare parts are easily available. The airframes themselves are at a premium atm due to max grounding but that will solves itself soonish, they could be based anywhere in australia due to being such a common aircraft in mainline airlines. Obvious first choice is they base out of where ever the P-8's will be and a RAAF / could be responsible for storage / maintainence during non a fire fighting periods

On the smaller end there have been good results from these float attached 802's

I dont think Cl are the answer unless you get some of the new ones being designed and then multi role them, maybe get some for amsa for a rescue and they can be called up into firebombing roles if and when required
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 23:09
  #29 (permalink)  
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I would imagine there would be enough full time work for local assets. Indonesia is not far away and regularly uses some form of aircraft.

In a year like this there would be no chance of owning enough assets and ones would need to be brought in regardless. Having the assets year round though would allow all kinds of flexibility.

As for CASA and operations, one would not envy that CP!
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 00:26
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
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People are confusing Greens with greenies.

For example, this from something other than the Murdoch press

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Old 17th Jan 2020, 02:02
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Talking to the Navy guys in Tumut the other day. They have the ability to sling buckets. But they don't have any. Can't be an overly expensive purchase to kit out the army/Navy choppers to help out more when necessary?
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 02:15
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
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Its already been done.
Check our VH-NEP?
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 02:52
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Originally Posted by The Shovel View Post
Easy fix. Pay the local Fireries to do it during the week.
Some are calling this a National Emergency.
So hazard reduction burns need to be done WHENEVER the conditions are suitable. Not when it suits some volunteers. I would think the "token amount" it would cost to pay some professional Fire Men some overtime to conduct controlled burns would be far cheaper then the few Billion this summer is going to cost.
I think a major issue is most people think the RFS/CFA are "supplemented" with volunteers that fire fight.

The "firefighters" are the volunteers in the rural areas.

Urban firefighters get paid and work for Fire and Rescue and are responsible for fires in their boundaries. The similarity could be Fire and Rescue NSW and the airport fire service at Sydney airport, they are two completely separate things, but when things go bad they can support each other with "excess" resources but each must maintain it's minimum level of service to it's primary role. So the RFS does get some limited support during the fires but must maintain X resources to protect it's defined area and response times, leaving the RFS mostly using volunteers.

My personal opinion is RFS should have full time front line staff (equal to the number of police in that area as a start) and they are supplemented with volunteers.

As far as aircraft match the Canadian fleet and share them over the two seasons staggering if needed.
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 03:11
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2016
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
LIGHTNING starts most major fires.
Does it?

That contention is contradicted by the findings of the only large-scale review of the causes of bushfires in the last 20 years, the Australian Institute of Criminology's 2008 analysis of some 280,000 bushfires as recorded by 18 different Australian fire and land management agencies representing all states and territories.

Some 40 percent of those fires did not have a cause assigned by the responding fire agency. However, of the 165,000-odd fires that did, the assigned causes were as follows:

Suspicious - 37%
Accidental - 35%
Deliberate - 13%
Natural - 6%
Re-ignition - 5%
Other - 4%

​​​​​​Within the 'Natural' causes category, lightning makes up about 66%.
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 03:28
  #35 (permalink)  
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Bankrunner - who the heck is Alex Jones?
You're certainly living on a different planet than I, as just 3 days ago 2 teenagers here were caught lighting fires in the scrub in the suburbs south of the runway.
You probably gathered I don't watch "The Project" and other tripe shows alike.
Read the Commission findings on Victoria's Black Saturday 2009 and you'll start to realise what a clusterfug we're in, as it's got worse since!
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 03:33
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melbourne
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Macedon 1983

Having flown the MAAFS system during the Ash Wednesday fires in 1983 as a trial for the FED/Vic Governments the use of one aircraft did not enable sufficient concentration of effort. During training in Boise Idaho, the aircraft would join a queue of up to ten aircraft stepped up and called in in-turn. Airports in Victoria were restricted due to the operating weights required and the runway pavement strengths (also affected by the usual high temperatures associated with fire weather). I am not sure that RAAF pilots are sitting around doing nothing and waiting for training

and at least six C130s would be required to achieve the concentration required. In regard to the corrosion that occurred this was despite hosing the tail down each day although the latest versions have the tubes out the para doors.
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 04:40
  #37 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JekiJock View Post
Talking to the Navy guys in Tumut the other day. They have the ability to sling buckets. But they don't have any. Can't be an overly expensive purchase to kit out the army/Navy choppers to help out more when necessary?
I can recall that before Military assets are permitted to be called in to water bomb, that ALL contracted civilian assets must be activated and operational. From memory this was part of the agreement with civilian operators to ensure they would get called in for service and not miss a money making opportunity because the government instead used military assets. Many civilian operators relied upon the fire season to earn enough to cover the years overheads.

Made little sense watching a B206 fitted out for corporate work passengers, working with a small Bambi Bucket from NAS Nowra, whilst we had a SK-50 Seaking kitted with a Medium Bambi Bucket capable of holding double the water, and we could only use it on the Jervis Bay Range Facility fires as that was C'wealth ground.
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 04:40
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: aus
Posts: 160
the whole maffs report is avialable online, thing to remember is that US has 8 maffs units and hundreds of C-130 in inventory, 1 maffs was lost in crash. They dont have a lack of planes or aircrew and the ANG is the group that will do maffs operations when required. We dont have excess planes or crews to do this
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 05:45
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 41
There are a myriad of reasons why Australia is in the situation it is.
This is undoubtedly a large part of it.

The Evidence Brief For A Climate Trials Case Against Abbott, Turnbull, and Morrison - Situation Theatre
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 06:07
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Queensland
Posts: 94
It was going OK up to your numbered points. Then I started to wonder if you might also write the same garbage for The Australian?
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