F100 - Overshot Runway at Newman Airport (9/1/2020)
The problem in Australia is numerous RPT aerodromes are CTAFs so there is no way of getting any sort of runway condition statement.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 12th Jan 2020 at 23:50.
Very useful insights, fellas.
I like where you are coming from with the assessments, though I don't know what your company calls Runway Condition Code 2.
Boeing and 'Bus have 6 RWY condition surface options from which to choose inflight.
Once the RWY condition goes from Wet to Contaminated (above 3mm of standing water), operations are prohibited in most companies in Oz, as far as I remember.
So, it would be useful to apply the RF in a fashion similar to Curtain's procedure to figure out a Contaminated cutoff value.
The other percentages you are suggesting, though, isn't so flash.
Once a RWY has been assessed as Contaminated, then it's game over.
I like where you are coming from with the assessments, though I don't know what your company calls Runway Condition Code 2.
Boeing and 'Bus have 6 RWY condition surface options from which to choose inflight.
Once the RWY condition goes from Wet to Contaminated (above 3mm of standing water), operations are prohibited in most companies in Oz, as far as I remember.
So, it would be useful to apply the RF in a fashion similar to Curtain's procedure to figure out a Contaminated cutoff value.
The other percentages you are suggesting, though, isn't so flash.
Once a RWY has been assessed as Contaminated, then it's game over.
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Regional flying in Western Australian is the Wild West. No RFF. Few grooved runways. Metars not TTFs. GNSS approach if your lucky. Landing weight limited most of the time and limited alternates. Very limited ground support.Throw in a cyclone and Bingo! Some of the most challenging flying I’ve done in 20,000 hours. Stay safe out there people!
Once the RWY condition goes from Wet to Contaminated (above 3mm of standing water), operations are prohibited.
Once a RWY has been assessed as Contaminated, then it's game over.
Anyway, I’ve learnt something so thanks for that.
If any Tower controllers read this can they report back observed precipitation rates and corresponding visibility’s? I understand that there will be variables such as humidity etc that will bring varying results but it would still be helpful to get a few examples.
Cheers
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I had the honour (????) of operating into YGIA and YSOL early on in their existence with an FO with no GA experience. Had a lot of trouble convincing him that a B737 was just an overgrown C402. It really was that basic. Don’t know how it got past the regulators...............
He said it was like landing on the moon ! LOL
He said it was like landing on the moon ! LOL
No idea, I don’t work for network. I fly something a little larger.
Obviously though a crew isn’t going to land if the performance figures indicate it won’t work. On the airbus we used flysmart for every landing. On the Boeing the OPT. That is what autobrake and reverse thrust usage is based upon. Along with the preferred exit.
What do network use?
Obviously though a crew isn’t going to land if the performance figures indicate it won’t work. On the airbus we used flysmart for every landing. On the Boeing the OPT. That is what autobrake and reverse thrust usage is based upon. Along with the preferred exit.
What do network use?
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What happens if someone puts the wrong figures in??? Flysmart or OPT I suspect like anything cowpoo in means cowpoo out...
As a tower controller, we won't say anything about contamination. We will use damp, wet, water patches and flooded.
If there is a heavy shower approaching I will often say something but to be honest you can usually see it as well as, if not better than, us (particularly passing showers).
If there is a heavy shower approaching I will often say something but to be honest you can usually see it as well as, if not better than, us (particularly passing showers).
The problem in Australia is numerous RPT aerodromes are CTAFs so there is no way of getting any sort of runway condition statement.
73qanda, there is no tower. That’s the point. In this part of the world you’re on your own.
73qanda, there is no tower. That’s the point. In this part of the world you’re on your own.
I’m sure it’s it’s own kind of interesting west of Adelaide. I just hope that we manage to e extract and promulgate all the learnings from this one.
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BB, redefining global standards.
From today's The Australian:
My bolding.
The risky business of landing on wet runways
By BYRON BAILEY
Last week in Perth Airport, as I waited to board a Qantas flight, I heard a passenger address announcement that Newman Airport was closed and that passengers should contact their company to make arrangements to travel the next day. Cyclone Blake had passed through the Newman area previously and I assumed that was the cause.
Later, I saw on television the picture of a QantasLink aircraft, due to a slight overrun on landing, sitting off the end of the sealed Newman runway with its nose gear apparently bogged in the non-sealed surface. It was raining heavily.
Heavy rain presents a visibility problem when landing at around 200km/h and it also presents a braking action problem when landing, due to surface water on the runway.
A wet runway is defined as water up to a depth of 8mm. Over that it is defined as contaminated and manufacturers cannot guarantee adequate stopping performance.
The problem is hydroplaning (or aquaplaning) where — above a critical speed — the wheel is lifted off the surface and rides on the film of water, causing the plane to skid. The general formula for working out hydroplaning speed is nine times the square root of the tyre pressure. However, the Federal Aviation Administration recently reworked the formula due to some overruns. The dynamic (aircraft taking off) wheel-rotating hydroplaning speed was lowered slightly, but in the static hydroplaning landing case of stationary wheels the FAA reduced the formula for hydroplaning onset speed to about 7.5 times the square root of the tyre pressure.
This means for a typical jet with a tyre pressure of around 200psi and a landing speed of around 130 knots the pilots should, after a firm landing to break through the surface water to ensure tyre contact and wheel spin up, use lift dump and thrust reversers as soon as possible and then, when below the hydroplaning onset speed of around 100 knots, apply one firm brake application and let the aircraft’s brake antiskid system do its job.
Car drivers as well need to be aware that in heavy rain with tyre pressures of around 35psi, in the interests of safety, speed should be reduced, especially with under-inflated tyres.
Also, once hydroplaning starts and the wheels lock up, the skidding due to hydroplaning can continue down to a much lower speed.
Byron Bailey is a former RAAF fighter jet pilot and flew B777s as an airline captain.
By BYRON BAILEY
Last week in Perth Airport, as I waited to board a Qantas flight, I heard a passenger address announcement that Newman Airport was closed and that passengers should contact their company to make arrangements to travel the next day. Cyclone Blake had passed through the Newman area previously and I assumed that was the cause.
Later, I saw on television the picture of a QantasLink aircraft, due to a slight overrun on landing, sitting off the end of the sealed Newman runway with its nose gear apparently bogged in the non-sealed surface. It was raining heavily.
Heavy rain presents a visibility problem when landing at around 200km/h and it also presents a braking action problem when landing, due to surface water on the runway.
A wet runway is defined as water up to a depth of 8mm. Over that it is defined as contaminated and manufacturers cannot guarantee adequate stopping performance.
The problem is hydroplaning (or aquaplaning) where — above a critical speed — the wheel is lifted off the surface and rides on the film of water, causing the plane to skid. The general formula for working out hydroplaning speed is nine times the square root of the tyre pressure. However, the Federal Aviation Administration recently reworked the formula due to some overruns. The dynamic (aircraft taking off) wheel-rotating hydroplaning speed was lowered slightly, but in the static hydroplaning landing case of stationary wheels the FAA reduced the formula for hydroplaning onset speed to about 7.5 times the square root of the tyre pressure.
This means for a typical jet with a tyre pressure of around 200psi and a landing speed of around 130 knots the pilots should, after a firm landing to break through the surface water to ensure tyre contact and wheel spin up, use lift dump and thrust reversers as soon as possible and then, when below the hydroplaning onset speed of around 100 knots, apply one firm brake application and let the aircraft’s brake antiskid system do its job.
Car drivers as well need to be aware that in heavy rain with tyre pressures of around 35psi, in the interests of safety, speed should be reduced, especially with under-inflated tyres.
Also, once hydroplaning starts and the wheels lock up, the skidding due to hydroplaning can continue down to a much lower speed.
Byron Bailey is a former RAAF fighter jet pilot and flew B777s as an airline captain.
”Later, I saw on television the picture of a QantasLink aircraft, due to a slight overrun on landing, sitting off the end of the sealed Newman runway with its nose gear apparently bogged in the non-sealed surface. It was raining heavily.”
Hang on a minute... Even an armchair expert could see that there was not a lot of broken surface from the very first pic... However the aircraft rolled into the hard over run area does not sound anywhere near as dramatic.
Hang on a minute... Even an armchair expert could see that there was not a lot of broken surface from the very first pic... However the aircraft rolled into the hard over run area does not sound anywhere near as dramatic.
It's a sad day when ex-military aircrew journalists can't get their reporting right or let errors slip through the editor. "Apparently bogged"?? In the only picture I've seen, the one earlier in the thread, the nose gear is obscured by a firie standing in the foreground. It is 'apparently' raining however.
What guidance was/is available to the Pilot's?
The following is from the Aircraft Operating Manual for a similar weight and configuration aircraft from a different manufacturer. I've added the bolding for emphasis. One of the previous posters indicated that as ATC, they simply report the presence of standing water.
I offer this purely to ask, was similar guidance in the F100 manuals, if not, why not; and, why hadn't CASA picked up on it, or the Company SMS?
The pilot's can only do what they're trained to do.
Without measured runway water depths, on runways with standing water, use the following information to determine the possibility of hydroplaning:
I offer this purely to ask, was similar guidance in the F100 manuals, if not, why not; and, why hadn't CASA picked up on it, or the Company SMS?
The pilot's can only do what they're trained to do.
Without measured runway water depths, on runways with standing water, use the following information to determine the possibility of hydroplaning:
- Rain reported as light - Dynamic hydroplaning unlikely, but viscous and reverted hydroplaning possible.
- Rain reported as moderate - All types of hydroplaning are possible. Smooth tires will likely hydroplane.
- Rain reported as heavy - Hydroplaning will occur.