Mt Erebus Disaster 40th Anniversary
3 Holer, if you as a professional pilot can’t see the clearly obvious breaches of policy, airmanship, and basic rules of IFR, you are yourself dangerous and should not be in command of any aircraft with anyone other than yourself onboard.
Please don’t ever fly my family anywhere, for fear that you think it’s ok to descend into essentially IMC around high mountains, and I dare say in clear breach of policy of your airline.
As for the “the airline advertised the low level flights”, that’s terrific. You’ve just shown yourself unable to command anything by the justification of “but my airline thinks it’s ok, so it must be ok”. I could ask my 5 year old if he’d jump off the cliff because his mates are, and even he’s smart enough to say no. That’s essentially the exact same analogy.
The findings of some judge or whatever he was, has zero sway over me at all in this situation. Was he an experienced accident investigator? Did he have considerable experience in aviation at all? I suspect the answers to both those questions are NO, so therefore his contribution towards any investigation is useless.
The Captain made a series of questionable decisions that even his crew were not happy with (it was even recorded on the CVR). There is no doubt that there were other very critical factors involved, but if he had’ve flown around at the MSA, he wouldn’t have hit the mountain would he?
Please don’t ever fly my family anywhere, for fear that you think it’s ok to descend into essentially IMC around high mountains, and I dare say in clear breach of policy of your airline.
As for the “the airline advertised the low level flights”, that’s terrific. You’ve just shown yourself unable to command anything by the justification of “but my airline thinks it’s ok, so it must be ok”. I could ask my 5 year old if he’d jump off the cliff because his mates are, and even he’s smart enough to say no. That’s essentially the exact same analogy.
The findings of some judge or whatever he was, has zero sway over me at all in this situation. Was he an experienced accident investigator? Did he have considerable experience in aviation at all? I suspect the answers to both those questions are NO, so therefore his contribution towards any investigation is useless.
The Captain made a series of questionable decisions that even his crew were not happy with (it was even recorded on the CVR). There is no doubt that there were other very critical factors involved, but if he had’ve flown around at the MSA, he wouldn’t have hit the mountain would he?
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" Justice Mahon disputes the “absoluteness” of the minimums." and by this statement, and your acceptance of it, really brings into.play morno's question, "IF you are a professional pilot"
Last edited by prospector; 15th Dec 2019 at 00:43. Reason: spelling
"IF you are a professional pilot"
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Probably because it would be irrelevant to the cause of this accident...
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"Probable cause: The probable cause of this accident was the decision of the captain to continue the flight at low level toward an area of poor surface and horizon definition when the crew was not certain of their position and the subsequent inability to detect the rising terrain which intercepted the aircraft’s flight path"
That was Ron Chippindale's finding on this flight He was not required to investigate previous flights. The fact that some were breaking mandatory minimums was the task of NZCAA,. to rectify...
That was Ron Chippindale's finding on this flight He was not required to investigate previous flights. The fact that some were breaking mandatory minimums was the task of NZCAA,. to rectify...
Probably because it would be irrelevant to the cause of this accident...
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" It's all part of the prevailing corporate culture."
The prevailing corporate culture sent how many flights down to the ice and came back with no problem? bending the rules without doubt, but not impacting terra firma As has been stated many times in this thread, if you want to bend the rules make sure you are fireproof and not bend the rules of common sense.
The prevailing corporate culture sent how many flights down to the ice and came back with no problem? bending the rules without doubt, but not impacting terra firma As has been stated many times in this thread, if you want to bend the rules make sure you are fireproof and not bend the rules of common sense.
Whispering "T" Jet
Yep, they sure did but with one omission, changing the final way point (so as the track change flew directly over Erebus) without telling the crew. Of course, the Navigation Department only had to do that once and it was unfortunately Jim Collins flight that drew out the marble. Outstanding corporate culture prevailing there!
Yep, they sure did but with one omission, changing the final way point (so as the track change flew directly over Erebus) without telling the crew. Of course, the Navigation Department only had to do that once and it was unfortunately Jim Collins flight that drew out the marble. Outstanding corporate culture prevailing there!
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"Yep, they sure did but with one omission, changing the final way point (so as the track change flew directly over Erebus)"
And once again that was sloppy on the nav dept, but it was not the cause of the accident., It is a waste of time trying to discuss the many other factors that came into play with you.
And once again that was sloppy on the nav dept, but it was not the cause of the accident., It is a waste of time trying to discuss the many other factors that came into play with you.
This crew “believed” they were visual so descent was acceptable both legally and professionally.
Gordon Vette subsequently educated us on sector whiteout and the limitations of then GPWS.
Share the cause. Learn. Move on.......
Gordon Vette subsequently educated us on sector whiteout and the limitations of then GPWS.
Share the cause. Learn. Move on.......
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Even if you completely accept Vette's whiteout hypotheses (and why would you - it was almost completely made up by him and his brother and you'll find nary a scientific paper written on the subject) it was only ever going to be an explanation for what happened at 1500'. There was no "whiteout optical illusion" between 16,000' and 2,000'. What there was, however, immediately to the south enough cloud layers to completely obscure a 13,000' mountain. There was cloud all around and I therefore find it impossible to believe they maintained VFR at all times during the descent from 16000' to 2000'. Which is also evidenced by the fact Collins kept rearming NAV mode after every orbit, which is not consistent with a pilot who is truly VFR and "knows" where he is.
Last edited by PapaHotel6; 15th Dec 2019 at 08:01.
Yep, they sure did but with one omission, changing the final way point (so as the track change flew directly over Erebus)"
And once again that was sloppy on the nav dept,
And once again that was sloppy on the nav dept,
Even if you completely accept Vette's whiteout hypotheses (and why would you - it was almost completely made up by him and his brother and you'll find nary a scientific paper written on the subject) it was only ever going to be an explanation for what happened at 1500'. There was no "whiteout optical illusion" between 16,000' and 2,000'. What there was, however, immediately to the south enough cloud layers to completely obscure a 13,000' mountain. There was cloud all around and I therefore find it impossible to believe they maintained VFR at all times during the descent from 16000' to 2000'. Which is also evidenced by the fact Collins kept rearming NAV mode after every orbit, which is not consistent with a pilot who is truly VFR and "knows" where he is.
Whispering "T" Jet
The Honorable Justice Peter Mahon never singled out any individuals as responsible for the accident. It was not in his mandate to do that. The only "finger pointing" was done at the conclusion of the Chippendale Report and considering the pressure Ron had endured from Morrie & Piggy, it was not surprising that occurred.
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Once again, Justice Mahon was not an Accident Investigator, it was a legal opinion, it could not be appealed. Following is what his peers thought of his findings.
And 36 years ago this was the finding of the Privy Council.
In their judgement, delivered on 20 October 1983, the five Law Lords of the Privy council dismissed the Commissioners appeal and upheld the Court of Appeals decision, which set aside costs order against the airline, on the grounds that Mahon had committed clear breaches of natural justice. They demolished his case item by item, including exhibit 164 which they said could not "be understood by any experienced pilot to be intended to be used for the purpose of navigation", and went even further, saying there was no clear proof on which to base a finding that a plan of deception, led by the company's chief executive, had ever existed."
You will note, committed clear breaches of natural justice, a ruling by his own peers that he could not run a commission of enquiry in his own field, yet he could make a ruling in a field in which he had no expertise whatsoever.
And further to the findings of the Privy Council.
Citing his own action when alleged to be in the wrong, Morrie Davis called upon Mahon to resign as a High Court Judge, which he did.
And 36 years ago this was the finding of the Privy Council.
In their judgement, delivered on 20 October 1983, the five Law Lords of the Privy council dismissed the Commissioners appeal and upheld the Court of Appeals decision, which set aside costs order against the airline, on the grounds that Mahon had committed clear breaches of natural justice. They demolished his case item by item, including exhibit 164 which they said could not "be understood by any experienced pilot to be intended to be used for the purpose of navigation", and went even further, saying there was no clear proof on which to base a finding that a plan of deception, led by the company's chief executive, had ever existed."
You will note, committed clear breaches of natural justice, a ruling by his own peers that he could not run a commission of enquiry in his own field, yet he could make a ruling in a field in which he had no expertise whatsoever.
And further to the findings of the Privy Council.
Citing his own action when alleged to be in the wrong, Morrie Davis called upon Mahon to resign as a High Court Judge, which he did.
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Indeed, Prospector.
Yet - genuine question - why is it the public are never presented with this stuff? Why is it they are only ever exposed to Mahon's "Maria Collins approved" conspiracy theory? Are the media just thick, or was Mahon's theory just too easy for the uninformed to grab?
Yet - genuine question - why is it the public are never presented with this stuff? Why is it they are only ever exposed to Mahon's "Maria Collins approved" conspiracy theory? Are the media just thick, or was Mahon's theory just too easy for the uninformed to grab?
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I would think it is because the simple explanation that the statement by Mahon that the flight was aimed at Mt Erebus by a mistake in the Nav Dept is just so easy to swallow. The general public, and this includes some in this forum, do not seem to realise that the Captain and crew had all the means at their disposal to correct this so called error, and they used none of them, which to professional aviators beggars belief.
One might also add that one would think our Prime Minister would be taking her information on this tragedy from her own Government Departments official Accident Report.
Now who would be pushing the Mahon version?? could it be members of an association that pressured Air New Zealand to give all their members a turn at this Antarctic flight, first time down as Captain, rather than all the advice from experienced operators to the ice who ruled that one had to do some 20 hours in the right seat before going down in command??
One might also add that one would think our Prime Minister would be taking her information on this tragedy from her own Government Departments official Accident Report.
Now who would be pushing the Mahon version?? could it be members of an association that pressured Air New Zealand to give all their members a turn at this Antarctic flight, first time down as Captain, rather than all the advice from experienced operators to the ice who ruled that one had to do some 20 hours in the right seat before going down in command??
Last edited by prospector; 15th Dec 2019 at 20:51. Reason: addition
