Mt Erebus Disaster 40th Anniversary
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Peter Mahon died of heart failure in Auckland on 11 August 1986, aged 62. He had been suffering poor health for several years, and the stress of the Erebus report may have contributed to his relatively early death.
And the abuse being (selectively) piled upon the dead who can't defend themselves - some of the posts on here are a disgrace whatever your views on blame
https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies...n-peter-thomas
"Peter Mahon died of heart failure in Auckland on 11 August 1986, aged 62. He had been suffering poor health for several years, and the stress of the Erebus report may have contributed to his relatively early death. He had built up some momentum as an author, and death ended what could have been a successful literary career."
"Peter Mahon died of heart failure in Auckland on 11 August 1986, aged 62. He had been suffering poor health for several years, and the stress of the Erebus report may have contributed to his relatively early death. He had built up some momentum as an author, and death ended what could have been a successful literary career."
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And the abuse being (selectively) piled upon the dead who can't defend themselves - some of the posts on here are a disgrace whatever your views on blame
What is wrong with people that they can't read accounts, evidence and opinion without resorting to 'outrage?'
His comments about the Pilot and in particular the Pilot's wife are disgusting. When he made a comment about Mahon being affected by brain cancer when the cause of death was not that all, doesn't that lead you to a conclusion about the rest of what he says?
The more inaccuracies that are dispelled on this thread the better.
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This tragic accident, even 40 years on, gives us learning points across a broad range of topics which those present and future hopefully can learn from.
The reality of some items is not in dispute, the way points were changed, the crew was not told. Police officers have clearly said they found a note book in the accident which indicated the Captain had made notes about the flight, yet those note were no present later on. It appears that someone got to them and removed them, for reasons we can only assume but seem on the basis of known facts to be quite straightforward to understand.
Had Justice Mahan used other words then the famous phrase to comment, things may have been viewed differently. And it may not of been orchestrated, but corporate culture can be orchestrated without appear to be so.
Ampan, for the pain you continue to suffer after so many years, as we have noted all involved directly or indirectly suffer pain as well. For your sake and the health of those around you, family and friends, you need to find a less confrontational, argumentative, slanderous and ill mannered way to deal with it. And that should start with you leaving the familes, especially Mrs Collins and her daughter's alone. They have suffered enough over the years, there are few if any cockpit crews who have had more scrutiny of their actions then Capt. Collins and his crew. Its time to let things move on in peace for your sake and those of many others.
The thread has value and should be seen in that light, but perhaps the Mod can in future remove/stop/block the annual personal assaults on the crew. They did not set out that day to kill themselves and all the others but for a wide range of reasons it happened and the results can not be, as much as we want and need, changed.
The reality of some items is not in dispute, the way points were changed, the crew was not told. Police officers have clearly said they found a note book in the accident which indicated the Captain had made notes about the flight, yet those note were no present later on. It appears that someone got to them and removed them, for reasons we can only assume but seem on the basis of known facts to be quite straightforward to understand.
Had Justice Mahan used other words then the famous phrase to comment, things may have been viewed differently. And it may not of been orchestrated, but corporate culture can be orchestrated without appear to be so.
Ampan, for the pain you continue to suffer after so many years, as we have noted all involved directly or indirectly suffer pain as well. For your sake and the health of those around you, family and friends, you need to find a less confrontational, argumentative, slanderous and ill mannered way to deal with it. And that should start with you leaving the familes, especially Mrs Collins and her daughter's alone. They have suffered enough over the years, there are few if any cockpit crews who have had more scrutiny of their actions then Capt. Collins and his crew. Its time to let things move on in peace for your sake and those of many others.
The thread has value and should be seen in that light, but perhaps the Mod can in future remove/stop/block the annual personal assaults on the crew. They did not set out that day to kill themselves and all the others but for a wide range of reasons it happened and the results can not be, as much as we want and need, changed.
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I don't think the letter was "taken down" briefly. More likely, I simply could not find it again - but when I did I copied the video, got a screenshot, and typed it out word for word on this thread. You will see that that the letter was sent to Sgt Gilpin by Mahon in 1983. It was effectively published by Gilpin this week, in the podcost, when he read it out load and held it up to the camera.
If they were really visual, how did they not see Mount Erebus? They thought they were approaching McMurdo Station in the descent to 1500 feet but didn't have TACAN, VHF comms or radar contact. Also, the mountain should have painted on weather radar. I'm obviously raising these questions as a pilot, not as a politician or grieving family member.
Thanks for taking the time to type the letter into this discussion. Of course, as some have pointed out, even if Air New Zealand had a coordinated effort to remove evidence exculpatory to the pilots it doesn't mean that they were blameless in the mishap.
If they were really visual, how did they not see Mount Erebus? They thought they were approaching McMurdo Station in the descent to 1500 feet but didn't have TACAN, VHF comms or radar contact. Also, the mountain should have painted on weather radar. I'm obviously raising these questions as a pilot, not as a politician or grieving family member.
If they were really visual, how did they not see Mount Erebus? They thought they were approaching McMurdo Station in the descent to 1500 feet but didn't have TACAN, VHF comms or radar contact. Also, the mountain should have painted on weather radar. I'm obviously raising these questions as a pilot, not as a politician or grieving family member.
Cant copy the relevant part but apparently the radar wouldn't see the mountain!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0radar&f=false
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Ampan, ok who do you want to say the pilot was in error? Once that is written will you then be happy and more importantly just go away?
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Well I am NOT going to say it, and even it was said you wont be happy. I owe you nothing in the way of any explanations, you can continue to post here unitl this gets cut off or closed. Your attacks, your anger, your world of reality are yours so you can continue to dwell and live in that world. It is evident by your continued presence and pathetic postings you are not going to go away nor will you let up so keep playing at whatever it is you are doing that makes you happy and angry ad the same time.
Jesus Christ, what difference is someone on an internet forum, who could be a 12 year old kid for all you know, blaming the Captain, going to make to you? What do you gain by this occurring?
You’re an idiot, there’s no other word for it
You’re an idiot, there’s no other word for it
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The company has been hauled over the coals many times for lack of foresight when these trips were planned, however, one problem that had been covered was whiteout. Again from John King publication "New Zealand Tragedies, Aviation".
"We didn't put anything in the briefing about whiteout, but we discussed it with Operation Deep Freeze and went into quite some depth. At 6,000ft there was no whiteout"
That was part of Captain Gemmel, ("chief pilot.) statement.
"But the 6,000ft aspect was more than a company order, to be broken by pilots if they felt like it and the weather was fine. It was a strict CAD rule, part of the original conditions for the airlines scenic flights to Antarctica as stipulated by by the Director of Civil Aviation under regulation 136(3) giving vertical clearance from Mt Aurora, the highest point in the sightseeing manoeuvring area".
The impact point was at 1,500ft. How could Justice Mahon come to the conclusion that the crew were blameless? A problem with that view that is widely held now is
"Because the findings of the Royal Commission on the cause of the disaster were limited in scope, being legally an opinion and not a statement of fact, they could not be appealed in legal terms, unlike to Office of Air Accidents Investigation report, which remains the sole official account---and has never officially been challenged"
"We didn't put anything in the briefing about whiteout, but we discussed it with Operation Deep Freeze and went into quite some depth. At 6,000ft there was no whiteout"
That was part of Captain Gemmel, ("chief pilot.) statement.
"But the 6,000ft aspect was more than a company order, to be broken by pilots if they felt like it and the weather was fine. It was a strict CAD rule, part of the original conditions for the airlines scenic flights to Antarctica as stipulated by by the Director of Civil Aviation under regulation 136(3) giving vertical clearance from Mt Aurora, the highest point in the sightseeing manoeuvring area".
The impact point was at 1,500ft. How could Justice Mahon come to the conclusion that the crew were blameless? A problem with that view that is widely held now is
"Because the findings of the Royal Commission on the cause of the disaster were limited in scope, being legally an opinion and not a statement of fact, they could not be appealed in legal terms, unlike to Office of Air Accidents Investigation report, which remains the sole official account---and has never officially been challenged"
There was also no instruction to NOT put in an offset to avoid overflying Erebus. If th volcanco is erupting in front of you, you are not obliged to fly over it, and it might be quite a good idea not to.
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My impression of what am pan is trying to accomplish is thus:
He wants pilots to realize that there were more things Collins could have done to assure he had the situational awareness he thought he did.
There were subtle clues that he let pass without taking the time to recheck things.
I know I myself have learned from this that one should never just take someone else's numbers without verifying. Take the 5 minutes then.
To me the key moment was when Collins accepted the new coordinates without rechecking them against his notes at least and thus not realizing the last few numbers were different.
Had he at that point sat down with his notes and compared numbers we would not be chatting today.
Am pan reminds me of a teacher I had in school who would use similar rather harsh comments in an attempt to get us to rethink our answers or get to a different level of discussion.
While I don't like the way he has kept at it, I do rather admire how he has not backed down on his convictions.
If i am correct he is attempting to teach everyone to be better pilots. Not win a popularity contest.
Fog
He wants pilots to realize that there were more things Collins could have done to assure he had the situational awareness he thought he did.
There were subtle clues that he let pass without taking the time to recheck things.
I know I myself have learned from this that one should never just take someone else's numbers without verifying. Take the 5 minutes then.
To me the key moment was when Collins accepted the new coordinates without rechecking them against his notes at least and thus not realizing the last few numbers were different.
Had he at that point sat down with his notes and compared numbers we would not be chatting today.
Am pan reminds me of a teacher I had in school who would use similar rather harsh comments in an attempt to get us to rethink our answers or get to a different level of discussion.
While I don't like the way he has kept at it, I do rather admire how he has not backed down on his convictions.
If i am correct he is attempting to teach everyone to be better pilots. Not win a popularity contest.
Fog
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..the captain can't be entirely exonerated.
He was and that finding is now etched in stone. A indisputable fact that can be debated ad infinitum but it will make no difference.
It is statements like that that have no foundation in fact that is the main cause for dissent with many..
It is very disputable, and has been many times. One point that has not been put forward is the fact that the airline could very well have only used two crews for all these flights. That would have served the purpose of only having captains who had done the flight before, as recommended by RNZAF and US Air force who had much experience operating to the ice.. However, it has been put forward that NZALPA pilots were very keen to have their TURN at this flight. As has been stated before, a Captain may be perfectly qualified and experienced on scheduled flight on airways to major airports, but that in no way qualifies a captain to be making decisions on sight seeing flights in the Antarctic. in a DC10 at no less than 260kts at an altitude that was below all laid down minimums for this flight.
Justice Mahons findings were no more than a legal opinion that could not be appealed, the findings by the Aircraft Accident Inspector, Ron Chippendale is still the official finding, and has never been appealed
He was and that finding is now etched in stone. A indisputable fact that can be debated ad infinitum but it will make no difference.
It is statements like that that have no foundation in fact that is the main cause for dissent with many..
It is very disputable, and has been many times. One point that has not been put forward is the fact that the airline could very well have only used two crews for all these flights. That would have served the purpose of only having captains who had done the flight before, as recommended by RNZAF and US Air force who had much experience operating to the ice.. However, it has been put forward that NZALPA pilots were very keen to have their TURN at this flight. As has been stated before, a Captain may be perfectly qualified and experienced on scheduled flight on airways to major airports, but that in no way qualifies a captain to be making decisions on sight seeing flights in the Antarctic. in a DC10 at no less than 260kts at an altitude that was below all laid down minimums for this flight.
Justice Mahons findings were no more than a legal opinion that could not be appealed, the findings by the Aircraft Accident Inspector, Ron Chippendale is still the official finding, and has never been appealed
I know I myself have learned from this that one should never just take someone else's numbers without verifying. Take the 5 minutes then.
To me the key moment was when Collins accepted the new coordinates without rechecking them against his notes at least and thus not realizing the last few numbers were different.
Had he at that point sat down with his notes and compared numbers we would not be chatting today.
To me the key moment was when Collins accepted the new coordinates without rechecking them against his notes at least and thus not realizing the last few numbers were different.
Had he at that point sat down with his notes and compared numbers we would not be chatting today.
Flights on the 15/2/77 and 22/2/77 used the coordinates of Williams Field as the McMURDO way point. For the flights on 18/10/77 and 1/11/77 the McMURDO way point was changed to the NDB, about two miles from the Williams Field way point. It should be pointed out that through all the way point changes it was annotated and identified as McMURDO on the flight plan.
The navigation section and crews flying the route on five previous occasions did not detect the anomalous way point position 27 miles away in the sound. It was not until the sixth flight, immediately preceding Captain Collins, that the error was questioned Captain Simpson.
The accident was the culmination of airline culture, lack of training, lack of observance of SOP's by all crews, unclear briefings (the reason for lack of SOP observance, hell, the airline even used the lack of SOP observance as publicity). Captain Collins and crew unfortunately pulled the trigger of a gun manufactured and loaded by many others. A seminal accident for the James Reason Swiss Cheese model. RIP all.
Safety is everyone’s responsibility -“Responsibility lies with those who could act but do not, it lies with those who could learn but do not and for those who evaluate it can add to their capacity to make interventions which might make all our lives the safer”. (Phillip Capper)
I find it sad that one pilot(?) has so much hatred towards others in his profession.
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"The accident was the culmination of airline culture, lack of training, lack of observance of SOP's by all crews, unclear briefings (the reason for lack of SOP observance, hell, the airline even used the lack of SOP observance as publicity). Captain Collins and crew unfortunately pulled the trigger of a gun manufactured and loaded by many others. A seminal accident for the James Reason Swiss Cheese model. RIP all."
That would be the most accurate precise account of this tragedy that I have seen . It does not agree with Mahon's findings, which is why this question has been raised so many times.
That would be the most accurate precise account of this tragedy that I have seen . It does not agree with Mahon's findings, which is why this question has been raised so many times.
Don't you think the abuse is being exposed for what it is? Multiple responders have pointed out his inaccuracies in many different areas.
What is wrong with people that they can't read accounts, evidence and opinion without resorting to 'outrage?'
His comments about the Pilot and in particular the Pilot's wife are disgusting. When he made a comment about Mahon being affected by brain cancer when the cause of death was not that all, doesn't that lead you to a conclusion about the rest of what he says?
The more inaccuracies that are dispelled on this thread the better.
What is wrong with people that they can't read accounts, evidence and opinion without resorting to 'outrage?'
His comments about the Pilot and in particular the Pilot's wife are disgusting. When he made a comment about Mahon being affected by brain cancer when the cause of death was not that all, doesn't that lead you to a conclusion about the rest of what he says?
The more inaccuracies that are dispelled on this thread the better.
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Some apology is appropriate. But I'm astonished Jacinda Ardern has waded in and backed the Mahon report. Mahon was heavily manipulated by ALPA and while I believe he was sincere, his conclusions about the pilots having zero culpability were patently incorrect. The Privy Council did rubber stamp his findings but found him guilty of not following due process and for a member of the judiciary, there is no higher criticism. Really, I think the only credible debate at this point should be around whether the pilots deserve some of the blame or all of it.
We said it all - sometimes quite eloquently - here.
Erebus 25 years on
We said it all - sometimes quite eloquently - here.
Erebus 25 years on