Mt Erebus Disaster 40th Anniversary
Ampan
I'll bite. From what I have gleaned from my various readings on the Mt Erebus disaster, as the aircraft captain it is unlikely that Captain Collins can be considered to be completely blameless.
However, as he was only one of many with substantive input into this disaster, are you willing to share your thoughts on who you consider to be the other individuals and organisations that might share the blame?
Perhaps you can also share your thoughts on the degree of culpability you would assign to each of these individuals and organisations?
Actually, apportioning 'blame' is probably the least useful area of discussion that can still be had about the Mt Erebus disaster.
After this length of time it is likely to be more productive to be periodically reminded about disasters such as this, identifying the lessons learned / re-learned, and incorporating 'solutions' into organisational and / or personal SOPs.
Perhaps you can add to this discussion by identifying how Mt Erebus changed your personal, or your organisations, approach to flying?
regards
layman
I'll bite. From what I have gleaned from my various readings on the Mt Erebus disaster, as the aircraft captain it is unlikely that Captain Collins can be considered to be completely blameless.
However, as he was only one of many with substantive input into this disaster, are you willing to share your thoughts on who you consider to be the other individuals and organisations that might share the blame?
Perhaps you can also share your thoughts on the degree of culpability you would assign to each of these individuals and organisations?
Actually, apportioning 'blame' is probably the least useful area of discussion that can still be had about the Mt Erebus disaster.
After this length of time it is likely to be more productive to be periodically reminded about disasters such as this, identifying the lessons learned / re-learned, and incorporating 'solutions' into organisational and / or personal SOPs.
Perhaps you can add to this discussion by identifying how Mt Erebus changed your personal, or your organisations, approach to flying?
regards
layman
Last edited by layman; 26th Nov 2019 at 11:58. Reason: grammar
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Jayysus, ampan, why are you insisting so much on this?
Why should it even matter to me, or to others here, to determine or to establish whether the captain was indeed blameless or not? What answer do you expect? A simple yes or a no? It's such an ill-defined question in the first place that its answer, or spectrum of answers, are of no interest or practical value to understand what happened there and what it meant in the greater scheme of things for New Zealand. Let me give you two examples. 1. The German Wings FO who deliberately flew into terrain after locking his captain outside the cockpit, and 2. The Lion Air or Ethiopian crew of the ill-fated 737-MAX aircraft. In the former case, the FO is 100% to blame but in the latter ones? Ah, that's already trickier to answer. And even if we did have a definitive answer, what good would that possibly do?
I second others here who were either too young or, like me, just not born yet when this sad story took place. My primary interest is to understand the (chain of) events that led to the crash without trying to point fingers and to compare the instruments available to the flight crew then to what we'd have today. Training evolved some quantifiable bits over the last 40 years so some of today's nonevents thanks to the greater situational awareness that instruments give us could then easily snowball into unrecoverable situations. That's worth 5 min of consideration next time you get a RAIM alert on final.
Thanks for keeping this thread constructive or waiving your right to express yet another pointless opinion on PPRuNe.
Why should it even matter to me, or to others here, to determine or to establish whether the captain was indeed blameless or not? What answer do you expect? A simple yes or a no? It's such an ill-defined question in the first place that its answer, or spectrum of answers, are of no interest or practical value to understand what happened there and what it meant in the greater scheme of things for New Zealand. Let me give you two examples. 1. The German Wings FO who deliberately flew into terrain after locking his captain outside the cockpit, and 2. The Lion Air or Ethiopian crew of the ill-fated 737-MAX aircraft. In the former case, the FO is 100% to blame but in the latter ones? Ah, that's already trickier to answer. And even if we did have a definitive answer, what good would that possibly do?
I second others here who were either too young or, like me, just not born yet when this sad story took place. My primary interest is to understand the (chain of) events that led to the crash without trying to point fingers and to compare the instruments available to the flight crew then to what we'd have today. Training evolved some quantifiable bits over the last 40 years so some of today's nonevents thanks to the greater situational awareness that instruments give us could then easily snowball into unrecoverable situations. That's worth 5 min of consideration next time you get a RAIM alert on final.
Thanks for keeping this thread constructive or waiving your right to express yet another pointless opinion on PPRuNe.
Ampan:
Who was to blame for the INS being wrong?
The word "pretending" is accurate because Collins knew about white-out and knew that he would not have visual conditions below the cloud layer. What he was actually relying on was the aircraft's inertial navigation system - but the INS was not to be used to go below the height of a nearby mountain. Why? Because it might be wrong, and in this case, it was.
You guys/girls who are wanting to learn about this would do well to read, in full, the other threads on this subject. There is a massive amount of information to be digested before you’ll come anywhere near forming an accurate picture of why it happened.
It’s worth getting into it for a month or two, it changed my fundamental approach to flying the public around.
It’s worth getting into it for a month or two, it changed my fundamental approach to flying the public around.
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Ampan - you're in danger of pushing the discussion down the track it took a couple of years ago which ended in a lot of unpleasantness
Just let the question of blame lie for now
Just let the question of blame lie for now
Its been done - many many times - go and look at the old thread
There is no point in stirring it all up again......
There is no point in stirring it all up again......
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ampan It might be of some help for rest of us to understand what level of involvement you have with that matter or if you personally suffered the loss of someone close in relation to this case, or else your relentlessness on the blame topic is hard to make sense of. With regard to you listing Collins' mistakes, thanks but I'd rather not. No offence, but I don't know who you are or why I should accept your opinion on this. It also feels odd that 40 years on someone should keep on crucifying the captain who, by all accounts, seemed to enjoy a very strong reputation amongst his peers, without the chance for him to give a first-hand recollection and defence of what happened. Don't forget that he too was amongst the victims and he too left wife and kids behind. Last I checked, he was human, not a machine. Humans, to the best of my knowledge, have been shown to make mistakes occasionally (at least on this side of the Ditch it is a largely undisputed fact). The additional complexity is that there were not just one but a crowd of said humans involved to various degrees in the unfortunate chain of events that led to the crash.
So please mate, simply accept that others are not interested in casting blame upon anyone. If, despite this, you feel that you have ulterior knowledge worth sharing to help the less initiated delve into this topic, by all means, do share but word it accordingly.
So please mate, simply accept that others are not interested in casting blame upon anyone. If, despite this, you feel that you have ulterior knowledge worth sharing to help the less initiated delve into this topic, by all means, do share but word it accordingly.
Last edited by Okihara; 26th Nov 2019 at 17:00.
A few comments that may or may not apply to this particular incident.
- Like so many aircraft accidents & losses, the only people who could really say exactly what happened, will always be sadly unable to do so.
- You should never descend below Minimum Safe Altitude unless you are totally sure of your position & it is entirely safe to do so.
- While accepting, that anybody has a right to their opinion of course, how many of those posting on this subject, have been involved with the aviation industry & been a crew member on heavy jet liners
-This is one of those sad aircraft accidents that will be forever shrouded in controversy.
- RIP all those who perished.
- Like so many aircraft accidents & losses, the only people who could really say exactly what happened, will always be sadly unable to do so.
- You should never descend below Minimum Safe Altitude unless you are totally sure of your position & it is entirely safe to do so.
- While accepting, that anybody has a right to their opinion of course, how many of those posting on this subject, have been involved with the aviation industry & been a crew member on heavy jet liners
-This is one of those sad aircraft accidents that will be forever shrouded in controversy.
- RIP all those who perished.
Unless you were present with Capt Collins in that briefing I don't see how you can make that statement when all the evidence seems to suggest they received several briefings both verbal and written that showed a track down the Sound to McMurdo.
ampan, no need to use the name calling, I just don’t see what you are trying to get at. Yes there may have been an audio visual briefing with a track over Erebus to McMurdo but this was not the ‘common’ track taken by the previous flights. The Flight Plan given to Collins at his briefing was one that reflected a route down the Sound and not over Erebus, it was this one that he used to plot the track in his atlas. As I previously stated I do not hold the opinion that the crew is blameless but I think your interpretation of some of the facts are excellent in hindsight but don’t actually reflect what can happen the real world. I have been to many briefings in my time when 20 minutes later their will be two pilots debating what some of the procedures just briefed meant or how they should be flown. I mean the CAA authorisation didn’t allow for any flight below MSA yet it can be shown that most of the Air NZ sightseeing flights operated below MSA and were advertised as such. There are far more complicated Human Factors at play here than the ‘he was told so should have known’ bullsh#t, in my opinion of course.
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Now ampman has resorted to bagging out Capt. Collins work history at ANZ, including his salary. Embarrassing.
Gordon Vette, although a brilliant pilot, was also a ‘corporate boy’ through and through. He would gladly tow the line of Morrie Davis and Robert Muldoon any day of the week. The same airline politics continue down to this day around the world, nothing’s changed.
Is it ampan or is it Ron Chippendale?
Gordon Vette, although a brilliant pilot, was also a ‘corporate boy’ through and through. He would gladly tow the line of Morrie Davis and Robert Muldoon any day of the week. The same airline politics continue down to this day around the world, nothing’s changed.
Is it ampan or is it Ron Chippendale?
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TWT, I am more than aware of Chippendales death. I was simply saying that ampan sounds very much like Mr Chippendale - rude, arrogant and obtuse. Out of decency I won’t say what I would like to say about Chippendale though. It’s a pity others aren’t as respectful to the departed Capt. Collins.
ampan, you sound very much like a former NZ labor politician from the 70’s who has an axe to grind with Capt. Collins over the pressure that the accident brought on the Muldoon Government. I hope I’m wrong.
ampan, you sound very much like a former NZ labor politician from the 70’s who has an axe to grind with Capt. Collins over the pressure that the accident brought on the Muldoon Government. I hope I’m wrong.