Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz
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Yes there was discrimination in the past, but that doesn't mean there needs to be 'revenge' and discriminate the other way now. Should just learn from our mistakes and hire based on ability, because there is no questioning that hiring based on a quota is discrimination. If you don't agree with that then I guess you are not for equality but rather for vengeance. Personally couldn't care less about someone's gender as long as they are a nice person and good at their job.
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By definition, the alleged Qantas target for gender representation means that qualified male candidates will be passed over in favor of female candidates that meet threshold minimum requirements until such time as the target is deemed to be achieved. Basic maths.
That means also by definition that males with equal or higher skill levels than women will be rejected.
That means also by definition that males with equal or higher skill levels than women will be rejected.
I am female, work at QANTAS and have a degree in aviation. I also hold a PPL and have lots of volunteer work in aviation. The application specifically asks about volunteering, studying, etc.
Got rejected for the cadetship on the first stage. All the successful applicants (male and female) had less flying experience than me. They want ab initio pilots.
So whilst there is a big push for female pilots, it really do see to be exaggerated here: eg it common to see in the recruiting threads claims that being female is “guarantee” for a pilot spot. The cadetship is the lowest skilled entry point for their pilots so if they’re going to ignore qualifications in favour of gender wouldn’t they start at the easiest level?
As for the sexual harassment thing: in my experience sexual harassment appears to be commonplace in aviation. I’ve see it in other areas like air traffic control, and even at the local aero club. I personally found that it was older men who would insist on calling every woman “girly” or “darling” who were the worst perpetrators. I can’t think of anytime I had a problem with a younger person.
A regularly overlooked point here. I know several long standing female pilots who cringe at the thought that their gender is effectively devaluing their hard work and dedication. If women pilots really had any self respect they would reject the quota system and do it the old fashioned way.
As a long standing female pilot...rubbish. I wholeheartedly agree with targets and the fact that we are pulling together to encourage more female applicants to these positions. I care about the best person for the job and I believe in the past there has been a shortage of good applicants because females have been encouraged by society not to train as pilots. It is different now. We will not be bullied any more.
There are no quotas. Recruitment data is de identified for the final decision. So sorry (not) it is hard to accept that the higher rate of female pilot recruitment means that the female applicants are doing better in assessment...and that those who are protesting are most likely those who would not have got a job had there been more competition from female candidates.
There are no quotas. Recruitment data is de identified for the final decision. So sorry (not) it is hard to accept that the higher rate of female pilot recruitment means that the female applicants are doing better in assessment...and that those who are protesting are most likely those who would not have got a job had there been more competition from female candidates.
I've worked with and trained female pilots. They are just like male pilots, some great, some not so great. I really don't understand what housework has to do with it.
...you develop ways of dealing with a world that cannot agree with you 100% of the time. Being offended doesn't make you right. But it will make you feel entitled. I recommend choosing not to be offended at the drop of a hat.
What century were you born in to assume that women make the better parent, what science do you base that on?
Can we drift the thread away from housework and towards politics? I just want to point out how lucky some of us are to be in democratic western nations. Many would see this as a good problem to have. Under different political and religious systems , in many countries, in 2019, women are not educated to the same level as men and don’t have the same opportunities to make choices like “ shall I train to become a pilot or not”. I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms.....and I’m not religious. Big ups to our terrible system that is better than all the rest and thank you to my grandmothers generation for their sacrifices circa seventy years ago.
“So if you want to be a mother be a responsible mother and look after the child the way nature intended.”
I am really unclear as to why we are even discussing the whole childbirth issue here (despite the fact that it was central to Ansett’s argument when trying to prevent women from flying).
My wife was a professional her entire life and raised 2 kids. Of the 40 years spent working she was off work for childbirth and breast feeding for probably less than a year in total.
“good for you if you want to be a professional pilot but then you earn it on merit, no quotas”
Which is precisely what is happening. There are NO quotas and have never been quotas to favor women in Qantas or any airline in Australia, which is why females still only occupy about 5% of the cockpit seats available.
The only quota system I am aware of was the one that ensured only men could fly airliners, a system that makes a complete mockery of the “best person for the job” argument so commonly regurgitated on this thread.
“I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms”
You are aware that Australia graduated its first female fighter pilots in the military only 12 months ago and only as a result of a condemning report by the Human Rights Commission?
There have been females flying fighters in other countries including several muslim countries for over 80 years.
Australia has been beaten by Pakistan, India, China, Turkey just to name a few. America and the UK are an entire generation ahead of Australia.
I am really unclear as to why we are even discussing the whole childbirth issue here (despite the fact that it was central to Ansett’s argument when trying to prevent women from flying).
My wife was a professional her entire life and raised 2 kids. Of the 40 years spent working she was off work for childbirth and breast feeding for probably less than a year in total.
“good for you if you want to be a professional pilot but then you earn it on merit, no quotas”
Which is precisely what is happening. There are NO quotas and have never been quotas to favor women in Qantas or any airline in Australia, which is why females still only occupy about 5% of the cockpit seats available.
The only quota system I am aware of was the one that ensured only men could fly airliners, a system that makes a complete mockery of the “best person for the job” argument so commonly regurgitated on this thread.
“I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms”
You are aware that Australia graduated its first female fighter pilots in the military only 12 months ago and only as a result of a condemning report by the Human Rights Commission?
There have been females flying fighters in other countries including several muslim countries for over 80 years.
Australia has been beaten by Pakistan, India, China, Turkey just to name a few. America and the UK are an entire generation ahead of Australia.
You are aware that Australia graduated its first female fighter pilots in the military only 12 months ago and only as a result of a condemning report by the Human Rights Commission?
There have been females flying fighters in other countries including several muslim countries for over 80 years.
Australia has been beaten by Pakistan, India, China, Turkey just to name a few. America and the UK are an entire generation ahead of Australia.
There have been females flying fighters in other countries including several muslim countries for over 80 years.
Australia has been beaten by Pakistan, India, China, Turkey just to name a few. America and the UK are an entire generation ahead of Australia.
Shout out to the USA and the UK for helping us maintain our democratic freedoms which allows us to advance the rights of women and minorities to create a fairer society.
NFPAR, good on you! Regarding harassment, my experience as a manager was the. opposite of yours; older guys were well behaved because they knew the employment consequences of a harassment allegation - in business an allegation is enough to get you fired. It was the young twenty/thirty somethings I had to counsel, they often thought they were just being funny.
What concerns me, as I have said (and witnessed) is having double standards not for hiring, but for retention.
What concerns me, as I have said (and witnessed) is having double standards not for hiring, but for retention.
Can we drift the thread away from housework and towards politics? I just want to point out how lucky some of us are to be in democratic western nations. Many would see this as a good problem to have. Under different political and religious systems , in many countries, in 2019, women are not educated to the same level as men and don’t have the same opportunities to make choices like “ shall I train to become a pilot or not”. I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms.....and I’m not religious. Big ups to our terrible system that is better than all the rest and thank you to my grandmothers generation for their sacrifices circa seventy years ago.
Your Grandmother would have been barred from many professions and on a different pay scale to men for most she COULD do.
We have come a long way- it would be foolish to think we are finished redressing injustices of the past.
This is what I observed in my career 34 years. Women tend to leave the job after “the fun wears off” also I notice a much higher percentage of women do not upgrade to Captain and are content to be professional F/O’s. I fly for a US carrier
“Women tend to leave the job after the fun wears off”
I suspect this may be the case to a certain extent although all of the women I have worked with in the past 30 years are still flying to the best of my knowledge.
In my experience in the industry, many many of my male pilot friends would love to no longer be flying but are type cast in the role and have no option but to keep flying. The fun has worn off however there is no plan B and many of my mates feel trapped by the golden handcuffs.
The vast majority of these male friends lack a partner that has the professional qualifications to be earning a salary that will permit these guys to quit and maintain the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.
Many of my male friends who fly have partners that dont work at all.
The few women I know in the industry have partners who earn as much or more and can provide for the family were the wife to leave the job. I actually know of no women pilots whose partner does not work.
I suspect this may be the case to a certain extent although all of the women I have worked with in the past 30 years are still flying to the best of my knowledge.
In my experience in the industry, many many of my male pilot friends would love to no longer be flying but are type cast in the role and have no option but to keep flying. The fun has worn off however there is no plan B and many of my mates feel trapped by the golden handcuffs.
The vast majority of these male friends lack a partner that has the professional qualifications to be earning a salary that will permit these guys to quit and maintain the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.
Many of my male friends who fly have partners that dont work at all.
The few women I know in the industry have partners who earn as much or more and can provide for the family were the wife to leave the job. I actually know of no women pilots whose partner does not work.
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I'm not sure if they are quotas, but the cadetships definitely have recruitment goals in terms of gender and this in itself is discrimination as there shouldn't be any favouring due to ones gender.
But if countries in which the status of women is less than men have been able to integrate women better into flying roles before Australia, which supposedly has more gender equality, maybe it does say something about how our specific attitudes in Australian Aviation have developed over time?
For instance (genuine question as I’m not sure) was there any other nation in the late 70’s that was fighting court battles to keep females out of airline flight decks?
And it’s surprising to learn which nation has the highest number of female airline pilots? It’s not one that is renowned for gender equality:
Women airline pilots: The country with the most female pilots will surprise you
Last edited by dr dre; 8th Nov 2019 at 23:54.
You’ve totally misrepresented that post. No one is calling for the rights and status of women in Australia to be watered down to those of a third world country (Notwithstanding the fact Pakistan, India and Turkey had elected female PM’s earlier than Australia too).
But if countries in which the status of women is less than men have been able to integrate women better into flying roles before Australia, which supposedly has more gender equality, maybe it does say something about how our specific attitudes in Australian Aviation have developed over time?
For instance (genuine question as I’m not sure) was there any other nation in the late 70’s that was fighting court battles to keep females out of airline flight decks?
And it’s surprising to learn which nation has the highest number of female airline pilots? It’s not one that is renowned for gender equality:
Women airline pilots: The country with the most female pilots will surprise you
Sourced from Forbes.
Surely, there's room for a few more.