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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

Old 7th Nov 2019, 05:49
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
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Originally Posted by ruprecht View Post
I agree that the individual does not know if they have been recruited due to a quota, but someone in that group most certainly has. Recruiting to a quota is discrimination, no matter how you spin it.

I would have thought a woke company like Qantas would be aware of that...
The fact that "someone" would know is irrelevant to the original comment. The comment implied that it is the female pilot recruits who are the problem, the female pilot recruits who have no self respect, and the female pilot recruits who have all the power to magically detect if they were part of a recruitment quota or not, and wave their arms in the air to make it stop. All of which is complete nonsense.

In a 30 year aviation career I've not yet felt the inclination while flying with one of the girls (including very recent recruits) to grab the fork off the crew meal tray and stab myself in the eyeball just to end the misery of having to listen to them ramble on about politics, how great they are at flying, how much more of an expert they are than people who actually have accredited expertise on a given topic, or how many of the opposite sex they've slept with recently. Regrettably when flying with male colleagues, my eyeballs are often at risk. And that's all aside from the fact that I've seen no quantifiable difference in flying standards - after all, they do ultimately pass the same course, irrespective of how they ended up with a position on it.

I just think we guys could show a tiny bit of decency by not automatically assuming that any given new female recruit has used some sort of sneaky nefarious means to get where she is, and that if she passed the course and is released to the line as a new QF long haul pilot, then maybe, just maybe, she actually met the required standard and we can afford her the same level of respect as the guys who passed that same course. Alas, this is becoming far too much to ask for some of my male brethren and disparaging off-the-cuff remarks are becoming par for the course for some of them. It's almost like they actually think these girls have stolen their manhood or something.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 06:13
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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In a 30 year aviation career I've not yet felt the inclination while flying with one of the girls (including very recent recruits) to grab the fork off the crew meal tray and stab myself in the eyeball just to end the misery of having to listen to them ramble on about politics, how great they are at flying, how much more of an expert they are than people who actually have accredited expertise on a given topic, or how many of the opposite sex they've slept with recently. Regrettably when flying with male colleagues, my eyeballs are often at risk. And that's all aside from the fact that I've seen no quantifiable difference in flying standards - after all, they do ultimately pass the same course, irrespective of how they ended up with a position on it.
Couldn't have put it better. I have been instructed by female pilots, I have instructed female pilots, I have flown with female captains, I have flown with female F/O's. No difference at all in how the job is done but a very big difference in the level of conversation and the topics covered!

If the airlines want to attract more females into piloting jobs then make it more family friendly and we can all benefit.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 07:37
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DutchRoll View Post
The fact that "someone" would know is irrelevant to the original comment
You should re-read what I wrote.

No individual knows whether the quota affected them, but clearly some are there due to a quota, and some others also missed out due to not being the correct gender. No-one knows who it is, and they never will. Does it matter? Probably not.

I just think that when you start veering away from “best person for the job” and start recruiting based on “social responsibility”, you’re opening a can of worms. Imagine if Qantas said “we need to recruit more Catholics...”

Now, for the record, I see no difference between male and female pilots in terms of ability. Of those that I have flown with, some were great, most were good, and some were shite: just like the blokes. If we want more female pilots we should be actively encouraging them to become pilots so that they make up a greater percentage of applicants for a job, not just recruiting a greater number from a low percentage of applicants.

PS why would you stab your own eye. If you stab the captain we all get a promotion...

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Old 7th Nov 2019, 10:22
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Imagine if Qantas said “we need to recruit more Catholics...
Unlikely given AJ’s predilections...
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 18:09
  #65 (permalink)  
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After checking most of the other diversity boxes for decades in the U.S. the new progressive workplace campaign is for 'neurodiversity' i.e. recruiting folks with mental disorders. No, I'm not joking.

It's only a matter of time before corporate quotas for neurodiversity clash with medical requirements in pilot hiring in the socially engineered airline workplace.

From an article in today's news feed:

Designing a truly inclusive workplace is a messy task.

Heightened awareness of neurodiversity —an umbrella term that refers to the breadth of human neurocognitive functioning—has made that project more complex and all the more urgent.

Companies like SAP, JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, and Microsoft attest to the advantages of hiring workers diagnosed with autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), dyslexia, Tourette’s syndrome, anxiety, obsessive-compulsive disorder, depression, and schizophrenia. In proven cases, neurodivergent employees tend to have terrific capacity for creative problem-solving and greater attention to detail.


https://qz.com/work/1741745/how-to-d...eurodiversity/
Airbubba is online now  
Old 7th Nov 2019, 19:33
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Australia
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There is no quota, there is a target. Recruitment decisions are based on de identified data. Perhaps the fact that a slightly higher percentage of female candidates are coming through then that currently training means they are stronger candidates?

Many current female pilots are mentoring those studying , actively visiting schools and encouraging girls. Perhaps that explains the increase also?

Leaving the dinosaurs’ comments aside (“men work, women have babies so they can’t possibly contribute equally” 😒 ) It’s great to read comments from those who’ve stood up to defend the rational perspective and try to talk some sense in to the vocal minority.

Given the lack of competition from motivated women at the time they got their jobs, it’s likely some of those minority wouldn’t have met the standard had their been the same number of women applying as today. I suspect deep down they know it.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 20:05
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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But what about quota for wimmin honey cart drivers!!

didnt tink so👎👎👎👎🤯🤯😡😡😡😡😡😡😡🍆🍆🍆🍆🍅💦
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 20:07
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Recruitment decisions are based on de identified data.
Not true. Did you make it up or did you just believe what someone else told you?
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 20:20
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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“A 20% recruitment "target" when the percentage of female CPL holders in Australia is low single digit, is a quota by any other name.”

No, its a target, a lofty one at that which the CEO has acknowledged is optimistic.

Many here misunderstand how QF propose to narrow the gender gap At no point have they had quotas and at no point have they proposed them.

Remember, the aim here for Qantas and any other airline on the planet is to alleviate the unfolding pilot shortage and a quota will not achieve this.

In fact, in the present market, a quota would undermine this aim.

The motivation is to expand the talent pool from which to draw from, not to prioritize women over men from the present lop sided pool of applicants.

How Qantas intends to grow the female side of the pool is anyones guess however I suspect they are coming to the same conclusion as other (most) airlines are that the biggest obstacle is the complete lack of visible female role models.

I dont know how far Qantas has progressed down the path in solving this however many airlines have become active in sending female pilots out to schools to discuss the career as an option with kids and to demonstrate that women can and do occupy pilot eats in airliners.

Others methods are being employed upstream to encourage women to participate in the industry and much has been written on the subject.

A quick scan of the internet reveals many articles on the subject of how airlines the world over are coming to the conclusion that increasing the participation of women and minorities is key to solving the shrinking pilot applicant pool.

“Forget these stupid quota ideas. Simply hire the best qualified person for the job.”

Correct, by increasing the participation rate of women airlines are growing the talent pool which makes it easier to hire the best qualified person for the job.

Previously when the industry was 100% male dominated, often the best person for the job was not permitted to even apply and thus the system discriminated in favor of men.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 20:57
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post

Not true. Did you make it up or did you just believe what someone else told you?
Sigh. It certainly is true. Or did you make it up or believe what someone else told you?
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 21:11
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Do Qantas have a 20% target for female LAME recruitment - no.

Do Qantas have a target for more equality in check-in jobs where men are under-represented - no.

This is simply political agenda pushing and free PR - because if it were ACTUALLY about equality, the answer to the above questions would be yes.

You can’t fix discrimination by discriminating.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 21:14
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete View Post
Do Qantas have a 20% target for female LAME recruitment - no.

Do Qantas have a target for more equality in check-in jobs where men are under-represented - no.

This is simply political agenda pushing and free PR - because if it were ACTUALLY about equality, the answer to the above questions would be yes.

You can’t fix discrimination by discriminating.
Eloquently said Pete.
It is what QF has become: A vehicle for social discourse, selling gym memberships and car insurance, with the odd manufactured crisis to make Little Napoleon seem big.

Last edited by Rated De; 7th Nov 2019 at 22:06.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 22:04
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Sigh. It certainly is true. Or did you make it up or believe what someone else told you?
Neither. I observed it.
CV photos, names, gender, Nationalities, hobbies, sports records, school records etc . Reference checks to determine ‘fit’ and ‘suitability’. In my opinion the process of recruitment is centred around someone’s identity.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 22:35
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Initially, the recruitment data was not de identified. The recruiters saw applicants of a certain gender being offered positions when they had ranked lower in the process. (This was only a small number). The pilot responsible for the recruiting data made some change that completely de identified the applicants. Shortly after, said pilot was told by HR to de-deidentify 🤯 applicants so that ‘targets’ could be met.

From my experience so far after 18 years in QF, until recently I’ve never flown with a female pilot I didn’t like, or didn’t get along with, and every single one of them deserved their position based on personality, knowledge and skill. Unfortunately, there are 1 or 2 new joiners that have taken it upon themselves to champion women’s rights to such a level that you do sometimes prefer not to speak at all in case you inadvertently say something which someone may find offensive. This is the absolute minority of people. In 18 years, as someone said above, with male counterparts I’ve often considered poking both eyes out with a blunt plastic fork.

moral of the story.....no one will get along with everyone...regardless of gender. So how about we just assume that everyone who got in did so based on merit. It’s easier. Sure, at times throughout QF’s long history, there are people who got in when ranked well down the list of applicants. How can you be so certain you weren’t one of them?
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 00:09
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Can we do away with this 'shrinking talent pool' boloney? QF hand out the 'thanks but no thanks' to a large number of applicants with solid experience, pre interview/sim, each hiring round. You'd think they were in the same boat as Queensland farmers going by the press releases.
Everyone gets that it's very competitive, so let's leave it at that.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 00:58
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Great South East, tired and retired
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In the HR office of A Major Airline were 3 female pilots vying for one slot, and all have proven to be equal up till now. The HR genius decides to ask a question, as the Senior Recruiter looks on:
"What is one and one?"

First girl: "Two."

Second girl: 'Eleven."

Third girl: "It can be anything you want it to be."

The girls leave, and the HR genius talks to the Senior Recruiter.
"The first girl is straight-forward, says "two" and that is the straight-up answer. No mucking about.
The second girl is a lateral thinker, put the two ones side by side and you have eleven. Could be a really good problem-solver.
The third girl has a free-flowing thought pattern, you can use any method to get the problem solved.
Which one would you hire?"

Senior Recruiter: "The one with the big t**s".
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 01:00
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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’said pilot was told by HR to de-deidentify �� applicants so that ‘targets’ could be met’

In other words, HR rendering the recruitment role obsolete?
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 01:17
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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“Do Qantas have a 20% target for female LAME recruitment - no.”

Not sure about the actual target but yes they have been actively trying to up the participation rate of women in the engineering field.
Orange future is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2019, 01:36
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Over the years, I have shared flight decks with the former Qantas Chairman's son, at least three different Chief Pilot's son's, sons and daughters of Senior Check Captains, sons and daughters of the 1990's Manager Pilot Recruitment (I think 3 are in the airline), a Director's love child, two son's of a Duty Dispatch Manager and so it goes on.

One or two, I would describe their flying as "agricultural" however they all passed initial training, all made it passed S/O to F/O and a lot are Captains now days.

Did some type of "positive" discrimination get all of these people onto an assessment day? Who knows.

Did they all have to stand on their own once in for assessment, and jump through the process like I did? Yes...

Do they hold their own as pilots? Largely, yes.

I don't see a lot of difference between that in the past and some type of weighting to increase the throughput of females in the assessment process - but they have to hold their own from there.

I'm on a type that gets a lot of the new recruits and my right seat usually changes soon into the flight with one of the two S/O's and I have found thus far the new recruits regardless of gender to be of a very high quality and standard.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 02:15
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Icarus,

"Isn't it up to the individual couple to make decisions? First of all to decide to have children and then to decide who will stay home (if anyone) to look after it/them. The woman will be out of action for the best part of twelve months for childbirth, that is simply an inconvenient fact of nature.
Interesting comment though, "why was it her career that was expected to take the hit? ". Well who said that it is? That is between her and her partner surely?"

You must have your head in the sand. How come in 99% of cases it's the woman whose career goes on hold, how come in 99% of cases it's the woman who continues to do the bulk of the housework while also working?

Talk to any woman with a career (let alone those who just 'work') and see who does not only the housework, but also "manages" the the family life etc.

Women make up over 50% of the population and are not equally represented in virtually any area except lower paid occupations (excepting these days Law and Medicine, however are on lower remuneration as guess why, they carry the childcare and h/w burden), where they're over represented.

To the idiot who asked the question about males in nursing, males are over represented in management roles and on average earn more than female nurses.

If you're concerned and pissed about your airline career opportunities it's most likely because you subconsciously recognise you're going to be found wanting against the competition.

To the idiot who complained that quotas were discriminatory, guess what, that's what females have faced since forever.
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