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Old 1st Nov 2019, 02:21
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JamieMaree
And you call yourself a professional pilot, demand respect, and demand to be remunerated accordingly.
You’re nothing but an industrial thug in a white shirt.
I think Not!

It’s crystal clear that Qantas Group Corporate leaders are failing to foster any sense of trust and loyalty in their employees.

Regrettably, that doesn’t have to be the case as managers who show outstanding leadership qualities can inspire their teams to accomplish incredible things. i.e. Project Sunrise could be a Win/ Win, if approached correctly! When leaders are sincere, enthusiastic, genuine and passionate, that’s contagious!

True enthusiasm for a business, its products, and its mission cannot be faked. Yet Qantas Group employees (the lifers who breath Australian and International aviation) can recognise insincere cheerleading, loss of integrity and corporate greed from low altitudes!

When employees see evidence that their leaders lack integrity and continue to display poor leadership that can be nearly impossible to recover from.

Trust lost from your employees is difficult to near impossible to recover.

Dragon Man, I suspect, is merely reflective of what he sees his Managers doing to his Profession and Industry.
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 23:19
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Originally Posted by Rated De
Each pilot can take a stand.
Whilst the apparatus aligned against the employee and indeed the collective is formidable, operating revenue only comes from one thing: aircraft flying.

PR doesn't matter as much as collective willpower, for all the administration required to "administer" an airline needs operating revenue.
Impact their Operating Revenue and they listen.

Rated, I think I did not make my point clearly.

Pilots need decent PR to get Joe Public on their side and THEN take action to sort things out. Any action taken by the pilots without H]Joe Public on their side will be seen as action taken by a spoilt, overpaid group of glorified bus drivers.

Sadly, seeing the mudslinging going on in this post, I fear the pilot group is doomed.

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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 00:12
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I don’t think you will ever get Joe Public on board, you know what Straya is like. If someone is earning more money than you then, why help them? Shoot them down, snipe at them, etcetera and blah blah blah................

It is crap but it is reality in the lucky country.

What you do have is unions, so get farken together and fight, look at your German, British & French counterparts over the years and what they have achieved. You could also compare to the great sand pit in the sky and see how things can go the other way.

It is a case of stop whining band together and do something about it, or don’t!

Straya
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 02:05
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gtseraf
Rated, I think I did not make my point clearly.
No, I understood your post like everyone did. Except I live in the real world and know the public don't give a sh!t about your salary or anyone else's. They only care about the cost of the ticket.

Just out of curiosity, how would like/expect Joe Public would support you in your wage fight?

Nice article in one of the papers yesterday, that QF pilots operating the Project Sunrise flight could earn almost $500k per year as a Captain (high 400's from memory), forget the F/O salary and S/O $157,000. You already lost your PR campaign.
I read it in the news so it must be true.
FYI, Joe Public don't know the difference between a QF, JQ, VA or Tiger pilot.

I sat in a room 4 years ago and listened to 2 different Unions and Pilot groups both have differing opinions on how to vote on the EBA the second time around. One said vote it up, the other said pursue protected industrial action. How about we get the pilot group support before worrying about outside help.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 02:12
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Global Aviator
I don’t think you will ever get Joe Public on board, you know what Straya is like. If someone is earning more money than you then, why help them? Shoot them down, snipe at them, etcetera and blah blah blah................

Straya
This was right once upon a time. The truth now though is for the last 20 years or so our pay and conditions have been degraded so much so that we are now not earning any more than a LOT of jobs!

Every thing else about then still applies now. High levels of experience required, evaluations constantly, medicals, hours of operation and responsibilities. These are just to name a few. I can’t speak for Qantas I don’t work there, I do however work for the other mob in a narrow body operation and I know in the last 5-10 years my lifestyle has been degraded so much so that it affects my marriage, my health, relationship with my kids and I struggle to see how much longer I can keep it up.

All this to satisfy a KPI which results in a bonus paid to someone who is not even going to be in the company in a couple of years.
Its very hard to be a good company minded person when this is happening.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 04:09
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JamieMaree
And you call yourself a professional pilot, demand respect, and demand to be remunerated accordingly.
You’re nothing but an industrial thug in a white shirt.
Another Angel, who will be in the Company for three years, get their first class ticket to London, and tick the box on their resume that they worked for a "Socially Responsible " Company.
Why should we trust you?
I love these management quotes
2005- Jetstar will only ever ever be 12 aircraft, will never operate on mainline routes, will never operate Internationally.
2008 APA..enough said.
2008...all crew will have the opportunity to bid for Command/ F/o in 5 years...LMAO.
2011 Lockout.."I just woke up on Saturday morning"...
2013 "Pilots are kamikazes, living in cloud cuckoo land"
2015/16 B787 will be a growth aircraft...the same line Tino is spruiking about the new aircraft.

Then you expect me to take minimum fuel from you Crapstellation Flight Planning system (Non- Normal checklist Low Fuel Please), use idle reverse, single engine taxi..why?? So YOU can achieve your KPI's, and you can get you multi million bonuses.
Then you expect us to achieve OTP, having sacked 5000 front line staff, and then issue nasty emails because YOU aren't achieving you KPI's.
Qantas is Execuitve Bonuses before Schedule before safety.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 04:43
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Street garbage
Another Angel, who will be in the Company for three years, get their first class ticket to London, and tick the box on their resume that they worked for a "Socially Responsible " Company.
Why should we trust you?
I love these management quotes
2005- Jetstar will only ever ever be 12 aircraft, will never operate on mainline routes, will never operate Internationally.
2008 APA..enough said.
2008...all crew will have the opportunity to bid for Command/ F/o in 5 years...LMAO.
2011 Lockout.."I just woke up on Saturday morning"...
2013 "Pilots are kamikazes, living in cloud cuckoo land"
2015/16 B787 will be a growth aircraft...the same line Tino is spruiking about the new aircraft.

Then you expect me to take minimum fuel from you Crapstellation Flight Planning system (Non- Normal checklist Low Fuel Please), use idle reverse, single engine taxi..why?? So YOU can achieve your KPI's, and you can get you multi million bonuses.
Then you expect us to achieve OTP, having sacked 5000 front line staff, and then issue nasty emails because YOU aren't achieving you KPI's.
Qantas is Execuitve Bonuses before Schedule before safety.

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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 04:58
  #28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Street garbage
Another Angel, who will be in the Company for three years, get their first class ticket to London, and tick the box on their resume that they worked for a "Socially Responsible " Company.
Why should we trust you?
I love these management quotes
2005- Jetstar will only ever ever be 12 aircraft, will never operate on mainline routes, will never operate Internationally.
2008 APA..enough said.
2008...all crew will have the opportunity to bid for Command/ F/o in 5 years...LMAO.
2011 Lockout.."I just woke up on Saturday morning"...
2013 "Pilots are kamikazes, living in cloud cuckoo land"
2015/16 B787 will be a growth aircraft...the same line Tino is spruiking about the new aircraft.

Then you expect me to take minimum fuel from you Crapstellation Flight Planning system (Non- Normal checklist Low Fuel Please), use idle reverse, single engine taxi..why?? So YOU can achieve your KPI's, and you can get you multi million bonuses.
Then you expect us to achieve OTP, having sacked 5000 front line staff, and then issue nasty emails because YOU aren't achieving you KPI's.
Qantas is Execuitve Bonuses before Schedule before safety.

Absolute rolled gold.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 06:13
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Street garbage
Why should we trust you?
I love these management quotes
2005- Jetstar will only ever ever be 12 aircraft, will never operate on mainline routes, will never operate Internationally.
2008 APA..enough said.
2008...all crew will have the opportunity to bid for Command/ F/o in 5 years...LMAO.
2011 Lockout.."I just woke up on Saturday morning"...
2013 "Pilots are kamikazes, living in cloud cuckoo land"
2015/16 B787 will be a growth aircraft...the same line Tino is spruiking about the new aircraft.

Then you expect me to take minimum fuel from you Crapstellation Flight Planning system (Non- Normal checklist Low Fuel Please), use idle reverse, single engine taxi..why?? So YOU can achieve your KPI's, and you can get you multi million bonuses.
Then you expect us to achieve OTP, having sacked 5000 front line staff, and then issue nasty emails because YOU aren't achieving you KPI's.
Qantas is Execuitve Bonuses before Schedule before safety.
Well said. Sums up the feelings on the line perfectly.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 07:55
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JamieMaree
You’re nothing but an industrial thug in a white shirt.
JM, if pilots or engineers had caused the airline to be shut down, stranding about 90000 people around the world at a cost of over $200M, you and your ilk would’ve considered it one of the greatest acts of industrial thuggery in the history of Australian aviation. (And I’d have most likely agreed with you.)

So how did you feel when it was your idol Alan who did it?

i guess thuggery is all in the eye of the beholder.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 08:11
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Street Garbage has Bingo!
Bravo!
From International to regional, it's a cancer that has the front line of the company on it's knees with understaffing, under resourced and blackmailed with their bonus... what do you expect is going to happen when all those in "The Art Gallery" worry about their KPI's to the detriment of other sections
A once top class and world standard airline is but a shadow of it's former self... profits? yes but that happens when you reduce capacity and don't sign EBA's until years after... in the meantime Joe Public is traveling with someone else, not getting heated boxes of mush thrown at him in overbooked and cramped seating.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 08:56
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard


JM, if pilots or engineers had caused the airline to be shut down, stranding about 90000 people around the world at a cost of over $200M, you and your ilk would’ve considered it one of the greatest acts of industrial thuggery in the history of Australian aviation. (And I’d have most likely agreed with you.)

So how did you feel when it was your idol Alan who did it?

i guess thuggery is all in the eye of the beholder.


No
No
and
No
to each of your points.

My post was in regard to pilot professionalism.
I am an airline pilot and my view is that pilots who approach their job with that approach are totally unprofessional.
Generous Sick leave provisions are for when the pilot is sick/ unfit/ doesn’t meet the required medical standard. Pilots have medical issues which prevent them from going piloting. Ground wallers can go to the office with the same afflictions.
Sick leave is not to pursue an industrial agenda. There are other avenues for that.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 09:13
  #33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JamieMaree
No
No
and
No
to each of your points.

My post was in regard to pilot professionalism.
I am an airline pilot and my view is that pilots who approach their job with that approach are totally unprofessional.
Generous Sick leave provisions are for when the pilot is sick/ unfit/ doesn’t meet the required medical standard. Pilots have medical issues which prevent them from going piloting. Ground wallers can go to the office with the same afflictions.
Sick leave is not to pursue an industrial agenda. There are other avenues for that.
You are correct however where as in the past pilots would work with minor problems that is no longer the case. All legitimate, all with Doctors certificates.
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 05:23
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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JamieM:
No
No
and
No
to each of your points.

My post was in regard to pilot professionalism.
I am an airline pilot and my view is that pilots who approach their job with that approach are totally unprofessional.
Generous Sick leave provisions are for when the pilot is sick/ unfit/ doesn’t meet the required medical standard. Pilots have medical issues which prevent them from going piloting. Ground wallers can go to the office with the same afflictions.
Sick leave is not to pursue an industrial agenda. There are other avenues for that.
This is an old IR ploy - appealing to your “professionalism” which translates into accepting lower pay and conditions, because “professionals “ don’t fight for their rights because it’s not, well, professional.

I have news for you. When did you last see, professionals - lawyers, doctors etc. take a pay cut? The AMA, the bar association, etc. fight just as hard as the CFMEU for their members, only you don’t get to see it.
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 05:41
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Despite several attempts to misrepresent my position,
no where have I said that pilots, or for that matter engineers, should take a pay cut or a reduction in their conditions.Someone asked me what was an acceptable base, I think the QF longhaul pilots EBA is a good start.
What I can’t cop are pilots who are happy to take take the money, whinge continually about their employer and say they engage in some sort of guerilla warfare against their employer. If they are so unhappy why don’t they change employers or change occupations.Having a profession as an airline pilot is a wonderful opportunity in life. Why not enjoy it?
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 06:02
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
JamieM:

This is an old IR ploy - appealing to your “professionalism” which translates into accepting lower pay and conditions, because “professionals “ don’t fight for their rights because it’s not, well, professional.

I have news for you. When did you last see, professionals - lawyers, doctors etc. take a pay cut? The AMA, the bar association, etc. fight just as hard as the CFMEU for their members, only you don’t get to see it.
Quite likely the last refuge of scoundrels...Appealing to professionalism.


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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 06:11
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What I can’t cop are pilots who are happy to take take the money, whinge continually about their employer and say they engage in some sort of guerilla warfare against their employer. If they are so unhappy why don’t they change employers or change occupations.Having a profession as an airline pilot is a wonderful opportunity in life. Why not enjoy it?
Perhaps it was Mr Maree

In the golden years following the cessation of hostilities in the Second World War, society got a "new deal".
That new deal saw stability in the economy, national interest and dare it be mentioned a degree of integrity in both professional and personal conduct.
That age is now behind us. Society has been hollowed out. The generational dividend has not prevailed and aviation is not immune.
An airline pilot may be similar in name to those already retired, but it has changed substantively.
The guerilla campaign to which you refer may in fact be a realisation: The board is stacked against the employee. The IR landscape both in Australia and in many European sovereigns is broken.

Airline pilots are professionals. They are among the few professions where negligence or even bad luck can kill them. Those sitting in the hallowed towers are not professionals.
The asymmetry in power relationship has destroyed amenity, work life balance and most obviously of all, remuneration.
To see the array of people, departments and resources aligned against airline operating staff is both scary and amazing. At war with itself describe many airlines.

There are, Mr Maree, two sides out there, but only one of them plays cricket.
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 06:50
  #38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JamieMaree
Despite several attempts to misrepresent my position,
no where have I said that pilots, or for that matter engineers, should take a pay cut or a reduction in their conditions.Someone asked me what was an acceptable base, I think the QF longhaul pilots EBA is a good start.
What I can’t cop are pilots who are happy to take take the money, whinge continually about their employer and say they engage in some sort of guerilla warfare against their employer. If they are so unhappy why don’t they change employers or change occupations.Having a profession as an airline pilot is a wonderful opportunity in life. Why not enjoy it?
I thank my lucky stars that I’m an airline pilot and have spent 95% of my career working for a company I was proud of. Change employees? You obviously don’t know about seniority in an airline. Change careers at 60? Sure, great idea. Guerilla warfare, I don’t call it that, I call it withdrawal of enthusiasm and it’s shared by the vast majority of pilots in Qantas IMO. Lastly, guerilla warfare is what I call the actions of Qantas towards its pilots.
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 18:27
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Lastly, guerilla warfare is what I call the actions of Qantas towards its pilots.
A small addendum.
It is open warfare against Operational Staff, including pilots.
From a distance a dysfunctional airline has two distinct halves: The Operational and the Administrative.

That an airline like Qantas, with a heavy handed IR model has descended into exerting continued pressure via media, has so many disinterested specialist employees and has in the recent months made multiple implied threats and derogatory remarks to both pilots and engineers, are anecdotal points to this form of warfare.
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 19:43
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Open warfare indeed! One of the (not quite) Qantas operations are openly flaunting the Fair Work Act and openly bullying those who object. The pilots seem powerless to stop it too!
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