Virgin Australia : 315 Million Loss - How long can they survive?
FYI - great slabs of text separated by ... is not kind on the eyes or easy to read!
I think the original Landor BA scheme was also a wonderful change, that grey was different and new... and was much emulated. Personally I think the QF livery that was the best was the 1984 design, not the b--tardized version tinkered with by Hulsbosch who appears to never correct the statement made by others that he 'designed the original livery in 1984'... no, he didn't, it was Lunn-Dyer and Associates in Sydney... specifically Tony Lunn and Ron Dyer. It was a brilliant scheme that similarly was innovative, look how many airlines have copied the continuation of the tail colour down under the fuselage. The triangle motif was brilliant also, the way it was applied elsewhere in both patterns on glass in lounges, stationery and vehicles. I'm not sure the new QF livery is as nice, it needed a refresh but while it's not my favorite, at least it wasn't a shameless copy of the original 1984 design. As for VA, yes, a disappointing copy of various other Virgin branding cues... Hulsbosch again, IMHO not a very good designer. Designed Woolworths as well who was then threatened by Apple for a logo that looked almost the same. At the very least, it would have been nice to see some purple (like the cabins) in the VA scheme but what we have is not Qantas lite, but rather, simply b o r i n g... an insipid tail and insipidly grey-coloured lettering on the side. Raised a few eyebrows at VS when it was unveiled. It's not the worst though, that would almost have to be Singapore Airlines, the one large airline screaming out for a new livery... currently essentially a tinkered version of their 1972 livery.
“Oxygen thieves”,
”Anyone with specialist in their job title should be dispatched to the unemployment line”,
”do nothing other lick managements kybers and drink lattes all day”,
” VA is exactly like the public service”.
Yep plenty of cheap shots being taken, not just here but in other forums and in person as well. By all means have a constructive conversation about the issues. But no need for the below the belt commentary. No argument from me about the management and leadership failures. But most of the 750 won’t be them will they.
I will probably never have met or will meet any of the 750 affected. Although losing your job is horrible (been there a few times now) hopefully they can find meaningful employment elsewhere and quickly.
I know there are a number of Flight Crew management that should be shown the door instead. Some of the above comments certainly apply. Sorry, but that is the truth.
@summer lovin they have come to the party and quite a number have been getting command bypass pay for quite a while, whilst never holding (obviously) or held a command. Dont get me started on integration or date of joining.
We ALL must remember it was NOT our doing or decisions that got us here. Those responsible have mainly left with very nice bank balances. Some to leave shortly.
I just received an email from the union stating the company wants to defer the NB EBA for 18-24 months due the "financial announcements and 750 redundancies" as being the underlying reason.
Nope, not our decision(s). Not our problem. Why should it be brought onto the NB crews shoulders as is usually the case.
Can see the NB group rolling over as usual though.
I know there are a number of Flight Crew management that should be shown the door instead. Some of the above comments certainly apply. Sorry, but that is the truth.
@summer lovin they have come to the party and quite a number have been getting command bypass pay for quite a while, whilst never holding (obviously) or held a command. Dont get me started on integration or date of joining.
We ALL must remember it was NOT our doing or decisions that got us here. Those responsible have mainly left with very nice bank balances. Some to leave shortly.
I just received an email from the union stating the company wants to defer the NB EBA for 18-24 months due the "financial announcements and 750 redundancies" as being the underlying reason.
Nope, not our decision(s). Not our problem. Why should it be brought onto the NB crews shoulders as is usually the case.
Can see the NB group rolling over as usual though.
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I will probably never have met or will meet any of the 750 affected. Although losing your job is horrible (been there a few times now) hopefully they can find meaningful employment elsewhere and quickly.
I know there are a number of Flight Crew management that should be shown the door instead. Some of the above comments certainly apply. Sorry, but that is the truth.
@summer lovin they have come to the party and quite a number have been getting command bypass pay for quite a while, whilst never holding (obviously) or held a command. Dont get me started on integration or date of joining.
We ALL must remember it was NOT our doing or decisions that got us here. Those responsible have mainly left with very nice bank balances. Some to leave shortly.
I just received an email from the union stating the company wants to defer the NB EBA for 18-24 months due the "financial announcements and 750 redundancies" as being the underlying reason.
Nope, not our decision(s). Not our problem. Why should it be brought onto the NB crews shoulders as is usually the case.
Can see the NB group rolling over as usual though.
I know there are a number of Flight Crew management that should be shown the door instead. Some of the above comments certainly apply. Sorry, but that is the truth.
@summer lovin they have come to the party and quite a number have been getting command bypass pay for quite a while, whilst never holding (obviously) or held a command. Dont get me started on integration or date of joining.
We ALL must remember it was NOT our doing or decisions that got us here. Those responsible have mainly left with very nice bank balances. Some to leave shortly.
I just received an email from the union stating the company wants to defer the NB EBA for 18-24 months due the "financial announcements and 750 redundancies" as being the underlying reason.
Nope, not our decision(s). Not our problem. Why should it be brought onto the NB crews shoulders as is usually the case.
Can see the NB group rolling over as usual though.
More F/O’s on Captains rates perhaps?
If you are ex Ansett, you are a slow learner. If you are not, prepare to repeat history.
Either way you sound like an empathetic logical thinker......
Servo, if I read your comments right, you are saying that it is managements problem, management should therefore wear the consequences and employees and unions should continue to try and screw as much as they can?
More F/O’s on Captains rates perhaps?
If you are ex Ansett, you are a slow learner. If you are not, prepare to repeat history.
Either way you sound like an empathetic logical thinker......
I did mention in a previous post, Paul has been given a poisoned chalice that is VA.
I certainly do NOT believe any NB crew would wish for or behave in a way that would further damage the company. I cannot control the behavior and attitude of others towards the 750. Neither union has ever "screwed" the company at any point in it's history. In fact quite the opposite.
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Servo - its not about what’s fair, its about whether you want a job or not.
Your company is bleeding money right now. If not corrected it will be fatal ie you will loose your job.
It doesn’t matter whether you think you caused the problem or not. If you demand more money, you are simply making the problem worse and hastening
your own unemployment.
If you decide to ignore management and the inevitable occurs, they will move on and find other roles. Have a look at the careers of some of the senior ex AN managers after the collapse - Ahmed Fahour, George Frazis being 2 examples.
You on the other hand will find that your unemployment has been a gift for Junior Qantas Group pilots who will gladly take the promotion you have helped them get.
I think your union is being very sensible.
Your company is bleeding money right now. If not corrected it will be fatal ie you will loose your job.
It doesn’t matter whether you think you caused the problem or not. If you demand more money, you are simply making the problem worse and hastening
your own unemployment.
If you decide to ignore management and the inevitable occurs, they will move on and find other roles. Have a look at the careers of some of the senior ex AN managers after the collapse - Ahmed Fahour, George Frazis being 2 examples.
You on the other hand will find that your unemployment has been a gift for Junior Qantas Group pilots who will gladly take the promotion you have helped them get.
I think your union is being very sensible.
Servo - its not about what’s fair, its about whether you want a job or not.
Your company is bleeding money right now. If not corrected it will be fatal ie you will loose your job.
It doesn’t matter whether you think you caused the problem or not. If you demand more money, you are simply making the problem worse and hastening
your own unemployment.
If you decide to ignore management and the inevitable occurs, they will move on and find other roles. Have a look at the careers of some of the senior ex AN managers after the collapse - Ahmed Fahour, George Frazis being 2 examples.
You on the other hand will find that your unemployment has been a gift for Junior Qantas Group pilots who will gladly take the promotion you have helped them get.
I think your union is being very sensible.
Your company is bleeding money right now. If not corrected it will be fatal ie you will loose your job.
It doesn’t matter whether you think you caused the problem or not. If you demand more money, you are simply making the problem worse and hastening
your own unemployment.
If you decide to ignore management and the inevitable occurs, they will move on and find other roles. Have a look at the careers of some of the senior ex AN managers after the collapse - Ahmed Fahour, George Frazis being 2 examples.
You on the other hand will find that your unemployment has been a gift for Junior Qantas Group pilots who will gladly take the promotion you have helped them get.
I think your union is being very sensible.
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Servo - its not about what’s fair, its about whether you want a job or not.
Your company is bleeding money right now. If not corrected it will be fatal ie you will loose your job.
It doesn’t matter whether you think you caused the problem or not. If you demand more money, you are simply making the problem worse and hastening
your own unemployment.
If you decide to ignore management and the inevitable occurs, they will move on and find other roles. Have a look at the careers of some of the senior ex AN managers after the collapse - Ahmed Fahour, George Frazis being 2 examples.
You on the other hand will find that your unemployment has been a gift for Junior Qantas Group pilots who will gladly take the promotion you have helped them get.
I think your union is being very sensible.
Your company is bleeding money right now. If not corrected it will be fatal ie you will loose your job.
It doesn’t matter whether you think you caused the problem or not. If you demand more money, you are simply making the problem worse and hastening
your own unemployment.
If you decide to ignore management and the inevitable occurs, they will move on and find other roles. Have a look at the careers of some of the senior ex AN managers after the collapse - Ahmed Fahour, George Frazis being 2 examples.
You on the other hand will find that your unemployment has been a gift for Junior Qantas Group pilots who will gladly take the promotion you have helped them get.
I think your union is being very sensible.
Paul has had to make some tough decisions to cull 750 superfluous positions that were created under the previous regime.
I’m very certain that a lot of these positions are totally unnecessary within this organisation but I also recognise that we all need to play our part to remedy the situation or else we’ll all be out of jobs.
I can say right now that I will personally vote for the current EBA to be rolled over and I believe that the unions do have the long term survival of the company at heart.
We no longer have a self serving CEO in charge but rather, a company focussed CEO who is doing his absolute best to untangle the mess he has been handed and I believe that we also have a part to play to ensure our long term employment.
What the, one of the outcomes, I suspect, of the review is that there will be far fewer “managers”!
really it can play a couple of different ways - the unions can dig their heels in and insist upon negotiations, and the company would, i imagine, cry poor and the offer would be pretty average.
the alternative is to put things off, on the understanding that there are certain ground rules in place for the delayed negotiation, and then the unions negotiate from a position of relative strength next time - with backpay to the end of the current agreement agreed upon before waking in the door. whether the company would agree to such a precondition I don’t know, but I suspect it could be framed in such a way that it is an attractive, cooperative approach.
I don’t think anyone has suggested, yet, that there simply be a pay freeze for eba employees, but the consequence of the timing is that this is what will effectively happen for pilots - with the last increment already gone from memory.
but the upside is that maybe this is the time to negotiate items which don’t have a direct, dollar cost, or appear to anyway.
firm j class on duty travel - both dom and int - irrespective of the carrier (no more sorry SQ won’t give us a cheap j class seat so it sucks to be you), better retiree benefits (not just the lowest of the low priority - pilots are one of the few work groups where we will make retirement), better recognition of service - the 10 year ticket etc.
dunno, pleased it isn’t me that has to deal with this
for the record, I am not advocating any particular course of action, just thinking out loud about the potential paths it could take.
really it can play a couple of different ways - the unions can dig their heels in and insist upon negotiations, and the company would, i imagine, cry poor and the offer would be pretty average.
the alternative is to put things off, on the understanding that there are certain ground rules in place for the delayed negotiation, and then the unions negotiate from a position of relative strength next time - with backpay to the end of the current agreement agreed upon before waking in the door. whether the company would agree to such a precondition I don’t know, but I suspect it could be framed in such a way that it is an attractive, cooperative approach.
I don’t think anyone has suggested, yet, that there simply be a pay freeze for eba employees, but the consequence of the timing is that this is what will effectively happen for pilots - with the last increment already gone from memory.
but the upside is that maybe this is the time to negotiate items which don’t have a direct, dollar cost, or appear to anyway.
firm j class on duty travel - both dom and int - irrespective of the carrier (no more sorry SQ won’t give us a cheap j class seat so it sucks to be you), better retiree benefits (not just the lowest of the low priority - pilots are one of the few work groups where we will make retirement), better recognition of service - the 10 year ticket etc.
dunno, pleased it isn’t me that has to deal with this
for the record, I am not advocating any particular course of action, just thinking out loud about the potential paths it could take.
Last edited by Snakecharma; 5th Sep 2019 at 23:02.
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The sad part is that 700 will be one in three in the office. We can wait to see the complaints in 6 months from Pilots who aren't able to get feedback on safety reports or their staff travel issues etc. Will be interesting to see what and who goes.
You get feedback now?
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Oh, what, sorry, I was sure you were joking.........
Bullwinkle,
the days of airlines consisting of a few planes, a few pilots and some engineers finished in the 1980's. I don't really like the fact that planes are now 'assets', pilots are 'systems operators' and there seems to be 10 regulations for every heartbeat, but airlines are now owned by pension funds, regulated by everyone, attacked by insane and used by the masses.
Never has there been so much competition amongst airlines. If you like your airlines thin on staff, go work for a LCC like Wow, Whizz or Ryanair.... watch your salary drop, start buying your own uniform/lunch and pay for your own ratings; they share your opinion on managers and staff. If you don't like that plan, you're working for an airline that needs to stand out from the crowd.and has to offer all the extra guff which requires people to manage the aforementioned extra guff, like FFP, customer service, catering, lounges etc etc.
I have been on both sides of the fence, and don't work for VA, so I don't really give a dingoes p1ss what goes on there, but you do sound like a cynical whinger who is probably in either the wrong airline or the wrong job.
the days of airlines consisting of a few planes, a few pilots and some engineers finished in the 1980's. I don't really like the fact that planes are now 'assets', pilots are 'systems operators' and there seems to be 10 regulations for every heartbeat, but airlines are now owned by pension funds, regulated by everyone, attacked by insane and used by the masses.
Never has there been so much competition amongst airlines. If you like your airlines thin on staff, go work for a LCC like Wow, Whizz or Ryanair.... watch your salary drop, start buying your own uniform/lunch and pay for your own ratings; they share your opinion on managers and staff. If you don't like that plan, you're working for an airline that needs to stand out from the crowd.and has to offer all the extra guff which requires people to manage the aforementioned extra guff, like FFP, customer service, catering, lounges etc etc.
I have been on both sides of the fence, and don't work for VA, so I don't really give a dingoes p1ss what goes on there, but you do sound like a cynical whinger who is probably in either the wrong airline or the wrong job.
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Not so sure
Bullwinkle,
the days of airlines consisting of a few planes, a few pilots and some engineers finished in the 1980's. I don't really like the fact that planes are now 'assets', pilots are 'systems operators' and there seems to be 10 regulations for every heartbeat, but airlines are now owned by pension funds, regulated by everyone, attacked by insane and used by the masses.
Never has there been so much competition amongst airlines. If you like your airlines thin on staff, go work for a LCC like Wow, Whizz or Ryanair.... watch your salary drop, start buying your own uniform/lunch and pay for your own ratings; they share your opinion on managers and staff. If you don't like that plan, you're working for an airline that needs to stand out from the crowd.and has to offer all the extra guff which requires people to manage the aforementioned extra guff, like FFP, customer service, catering, lounges etc etc.
I have been on both sides of the fence, and don't work for VA, so I don't really give a dingoes p1ss what goes on there, but you do sound like a cynical whinger who is probably in either the wrong airline or the wrong job.
the days of airlines consisting of a few planes, a few pilots and some engineers finished in the 1980's. I don't really like the fact that planes are now 'assets', pilots are 'systems operators' and there seems to be 10 regulations for every heartbeat, but airlines are now owned by pension funds, regulated by everyone, attacked by insane and used by the masses.
Never has there been so much competition amongst airlines. If you like your airlines thin on staff, go work for a LCC like Wow, Whizz or Ryanair.... watch your salary drop, start buying your own uniform/lunch and pay for your own ratings; they share your opinion on managers and staff. If you don't like that plan, you're working for an airline that needs to stand out from the crowd.and has to offer all the extra guff which requires people to manage the aforementioned extra guff, like FFP, customer service, catering, lounges etc etc.
I have been on both sides of the fence, and don't work for VA, so I don't really give a dingoes p1ss what goes on there, but you do sound like a cynical whinger who is probably in either the wrong airline or the wrong job.