Project Sunrise
That the "research" is a PAID commercial "consulting" agreement with Alertness CRC tells everybody all they need to know.
The "research" is not peer reviewed meaning its "findings" carry ZERO relevance, will be "commercial in confidence" and tightly controlled so it never sees the light of day, unless a duplicitous CASA buy the fumant des tas de merde
The "research" is not peer reviewed meaning its "findings" carry ZERO relevance, will be "commercial in confidence" and tightly controlled so it never sees the light of day, unless a duplicitous CASA buy the fumant des tas de merde
I agree that there is a lack of long term studies into fatigue.
Based on personal/business experience tho' I have to say that very long fights/RTW flights on a regular basis seem to be affect people over the medium term. Just about anyone can do it for a few months - the insidious effect occur over the 12 -36 month period where some people start to suffer significant behavioral changes.
Companies I've worked for have often observed that most people can work every day for 3 months without any harm, 3-6 months they are still doing OK but there is a gradual change in some behaviour. 6 months plus and you are getting onto thin ice. Same with Ultra LH in my opinion.
The question I have is will QF pilots absolutely refuse to conduct Ultra LH without all the necessary break-periods etc being agreed or will they agree to do it if the Company offer $$$$$$$$?
Based on personal/business experience tho' I have to say that very long fights/RTW flights on a regular basis seem to be affect people over the medium term. Just about anyone can do it for a few months - the insidious effect occur over the 12 -36 month period where some people start to suffer significant behavioral changes.
Companies I've worked for have often observed that most people can work every day for 3 months without any harm, 3-6 months they are still doing OK but there is a gradual change in some behaviour. 6 months plus and you are getting onto thin ice. Same with Ultra LH in my opinion.
The question I have is will QF pilots absolutely refuse to conduct Ultra LH without all the necessary break-periods etc being agreed or will they agree to do it if the Company offer $$$$$$$$?
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.....Just a few posts into this thread I said.......
Who else feels quite sure that the results found...will have already been ...uh...found...and relayed to the research team in advance??
I have no reason to think otherwise, no doubt the media execs along for the ride will e giving a glowing report....don't want to lose that chairmans club membership...Oh and I forgot...there'll be the requisite Y class passenger singing the praises afterwards as well, of that you can be sure!
Who else feels quite sure that the results found...will have already been ...uh...found...and relayed to the research team in advance??
I have no reason to think otherwise, no doubt the media execs along for the ride will e giving a glowing report....don't want to lose that chairmans club membership...Oh and I forgot...there'll be the requisite Y class passenger singing the praises afterwards as well, of that you can be sure!
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Who else feels quite sure that the results found...will have already been ...uh...found...and relayed to the research team in advance??
Which seat will former AIPA President sit in? Is it at the feet of Little Napoleon?
Will there be interruptions from the cabin? A screaming baby at random times? Passengers slamming the toilet door closed near the rest area. Will the crew be fed standard ****ty crew meals full of salt, or will it be like a press junket where they get meals we would never see. Will they depart on time or be delayed due slow boarding, a missing pax, a bag search etc.
or is it just a PR opportunity where Joyce and the yes men and women will travel for 24 hours, in their PJ’s, tucked up in a business class bed watching movies, sleeping whenever they feel like it it, only to arrive in Sydney wondering what the big deal is.
oh, and will they be doing the reverse 5 or so days later?
or is it just a PR opportunity where Joyce and the yes men and women will travel for 24 hours, in their PJ’s, tucked up in a business class bed watching movies, sleeping whenever they feel like it it, only to arrive in Sydney wondering what the big deal is.
oh, and will they be doing the reverse 5 or so days later?
When you get paid 200-300k a year you do generally have to earn it and not easily, your disruptions are unique but they are in other professions as well , you don’t do a much harder job than others...miners who are also generally shift workers do lots of time away from home also as do other business folk who travel away from their families weeks and months on end and everyday of the week.......stop the whinging or maybe get another job or change carrier. Sounds like a doctor complaining about having to see patients or deal with blood or needles! I’m not paid enough for this I’m so hard done by!
When you get paid 200-300k a year you do generally have to earn it and not easily, your disruptions are unique but they are in other professions as well , you don’t do a much harder job than others...miners who are also generally shift workers do lots of time away from home also as do other business folk who travel away from their families weeks and months on end and everyday of the week.......stop the whinging or maybe get another job or change carrier. Sounds like a doctor complaining about having to see patients or deal with blood or needles! I’m not paid enough for this I’m so hard done by!
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my comments are about the validity of the study. If they want to make an assessment, then the conditions have to represent the reality of operating. At the end of the day, it’s about how crew will be operating, and how they can make the best decisions, have the best coordination and manipulative skills, so that the flights can be operated SAFELY. 3 flights without the conditions crews will face, ie fatigue from the previous patterns and standard flight interruptions etc, the studies are worthless. Anyone could do it once. Seems you have totally missed the point.
When you get paid 200-300k a year you do generally have to earn it and not easily, your disruptions are unique but they are in other professions as well , you don’t do a much harder job than others...miners who are also generally shift workers do lots of time away from home also as do other business folk who travel away from their families weeks and months on end and everyday of the week.......stop the whinging or maybe get another job or change carrier. Sounds like a doctor complaining about having to see patients or deal with blood or needles! I’m not paid enough for this I’m so hard done by!
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There are currently 2500+ QF pilots. How many of them do you actually know, to be able to comment on their supposed state of mind?
have really good unlimited food prepared by a whole team of chefs and cooks, have access to gyms and pools etc etc. Or travel business/first class, have a virtually unlimited travel allowances and stay in good 5 star hotels downtown. Your comparisons are NOT getting nickled and dimed on crew rest, food and accommodation. Maybe you need to find a new comparison.
- No word credit card, you can pay out of your pocket and be reimbursed in a few weeks.
- Max accomodation $200pn. (Hope to get a 4 star) No EBA to guarantee 24hr room service or a gym.
- Purchase the cheapest fare of the day, LCC or not doesn’t matter if your doing a 16hr day trip.
- No allowance just a $80 max food claim per day.
Its not beer,skittles and lavish luxuries for everyone but pilots and you’d find most entry or middle management get paid far far less than yourselves with a lot more hours worked and similar disruptions. You’ve got it pretty good!
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I agree that there is a lack of long term studies into fatigue
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Please send me the directions to this utopian world!! Not sure you will find many a company like that these days..bit more like:
- No word credit card, you can pay out of your pocket and be reimbursed in a few weeks.
- Max accomodation $200pn. (Hope to get a 4 star) No EBA to guarantee 24hr room service or a gym.
- Purchase the cheapest fare of the day, LCC or not doesn’t matter if your doing a 16hr day trip.
- No allowance just a $80 max food claim per day.
Its not beer,skittles and lavish luxuries for everyone but pilots and you’d find most entry or middle management get paid far far less than yourselves with a lot more hours worked and similar disruptions. You’ve got it pretty good!
The barriers to entry into an airline career as a pilot are far more onerous and expensive that that required to enter the airline industry in administration.
Thus, it boils down to science.
The science to demonstrate that there is nothing dangerous is this undertaking does not exist, the proposed "research" just paid for PR and any discussion of remuneration is premature.
Perhaps the best summation is Captain Shane Loney's from Qantas.
"Qantas is proposing to fly some of the longest routes in the world and what we need is a scientific long-term study into the impacts on crew."-AIPA safety and technical director Captain Shane Loney
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And there will likely never be any gold standard randomised control studies because for this type of study you need a very large number of people over a very long time for which you can control for so many variables. All you will be able to do is observational epidemiology studies at best, which, can't prove causality. Only correlation or association at best - but easily picked apart (when convenient).
Most Airlines are not interested in a longitudinal study of extended duration as negative health outcomes impact their commercially driven spreadsheet models.
There are airlines that accept the causal link between sleep disturbance, circadian rhythm upset and illness.
The last thing Qantas IR would want is an examination of long term sick leave.
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But that's the thing! They ALREADY have all the data necessary within their system to access the long term health effects. They know exactly the sickness rates, but more importantly the loss of a medical certification (temporarily or permanent suspension) as the employer must be immediately informed as flight duties are longer legal.
This is what make their data set unique. Most employers don't get to peer into their employees medical status to nearly the degree that airlines do. Holding a medical certificated for RPT is binary, you are either medically fit or you are not.
Genuine science could be done with that data set. However, I am reminded of the words of Sir Humphrey: "No Minister, I beg you," replies Sir Humphrey: "A basic rule of government is never look into anything you don't have to, and never set up an inquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be."
This is what make their data set unique. Most employers don't get to peer into their employees medical status to nearly the degree that airlines do. Holding a medical certificated for RPT is binary, you are either medically fit or you are not.
Genuine science could be done with that data set. However, I am reminded of the words of Sir Humphrey: "No Minister, I beg you," replies Sir Humphrey: "A basic rule of government is never look into anything you don't have to, and never set up an inquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be."
Alan is in France so it appears Airbus it is.
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He was speaking at the Dublin Chamber of Commerce a week ago.
Just a few of the deleterious outcomes to start with…
I suspect the ‘operating crew’ will be ‘well rested’ prior to departing JFK, versus simulating the trauma of the outbound sector and slip prior to the return sector. ‘Research’ is code for ‘PR junket’. It is research for how to design an inflight experience - not on the human health toll crew will endure...
https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...c091ce3b330eb8
...an American expert in the body's circadian rhythms said the impacts of jet lag could be “devastating”. “Jet lag is more than just an inconvenience. It’s pretty devastating physiologically,” Carrie Partch, a biochemist and associate professor at the University of California, told Bloomberg this week.
The test flight will help researchers understand how human bodies handle such long flights. “If you’re a constant traveller, you’ll probably put on more weight, you’ll probably have cardiovascular challenges, and you may have some behavioural changes.”
The test flight will help researchers understand how human bodies handle such long flights. “If you’re a constant traveller, you’ll probably put on more weight, you’ll probably have cardiovascular challenges, and you may have some behavioural changes.”
I suspect the ‘operating crew’ will be ‘well rested’ prior to departing JFK, versus simulating the trauma of the outbound sector and slip prior to the return sector. ‘Research’ is code for ‘PR junket’. It is research for how to design an inflight experience - not on the human health toll crew will endure...
https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...c091ce3b330eb8
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But that's the thing! They ALREADY have all the data necessary within their system to access the long term health effects. They know exactly the sickness rates, but more importantly the loss of a medical certification (temporarily or permanent suspension) as the employer must be immediately informed as flight duties are longer legal.
This is what make their data set unique. Most employers don't get to peer into their employees medical status to nearly the degree that airlines do. Holding a medical certificated for RPT is binary, you are either medically fit or you are not.
Genuine science could be done with that data set. However, I am reminded of the words of Sir Humphrey: "No Minister, I beg you," replies Sir Humphrey: "A basic rule of government is never look into anything you don't have to, and never set up an inquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be."
This is what make their data set unique. Most employers don't get to peer into their employees medical status to nearly the degree that airlines do. Holding a medical certificated for RPT is binary, you are either medically fit or you are not.
Genuine science could be done with that data set. However, I am reminded of the words of Sir Humphrey: "No Minister, I beg you," replies Sir Humphrey: "A basic rule of government is never look into anything you don't have to, and never set up an inquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be."
They will obfuscate, fill the "research aircraft" with journalists and turn coats and hope no one cares to ask about the existing data that all airlines sit on...
The more cynical might ask whether CASA "representatives" are on-board? Probably in the Chairman's lounge too!
Any bets on whether the illness rates for the pilots and cabin crew are higher than the general population?
