Project Sunrise

[dragon man]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

So they had 48 hrs off in LAX before doing a JFk leg, then 48hrs off before RTN LAX then 24 hrs off before BNE. Sounds pretty cruzy. 1 on 2 off 1 on 2 off 1 on 1 off 1 on then multiple days off. And a sleep during most work days. A lot of shift workers would love a roster like that.

You just proved you don’t need a long neck and feathers to b a goose. The first time you felt half human was the morning of the return leg to Brisbane on day 8. Doing them back to back with as little as 4 days off was shattering.

[V-Jet]

So they had 48 hrs off in LAX before doing a JFk leg, then 48hrs off before RTN LAX then 24 hrs off before BNE. Sounds pretty cruzy. 1 on 2 off 1 on 2 off 1 on 1 off 1 on then multiple days off. And a sleep during most work days. A lot of shift workers would love a roster like that.

Especially after arriving SYD/BNE - LAX basically the previous day, LAX - JFK is one of THE worst sectors you could do. I'd have to check an old roster, but I seem to recall shorter layovers than 48 in LAX on the way over. Regardless, getting up to go to work for a long and complex day when your body clock is telling you it is midnight to my mind makes that particular sector an example of all things wrong with long haul flying and human body clocks. The difficulty comes when the uninitiated look at it and say 'most shift workers would love a roster like that'. NO THEY WOULDN'T!!!

Think about it. You get up at say 7am to go to work for what is usually a 16 hour day. You arrive at LAX at (say) 6am when your body tells you it's midnight. You're OK, long day, but thats fine. Get to the hotel and likely asleep by 10am LAX. And you likely sleep to 7/8pm unless you force yourself awake earlier for a 6pm crew meeting. All good so far, but this is when it gets a bit weird. You've just had a monster day and a fitful but probably reasonable sleep. No chance you will sleep through the night. Not a hope in hell. Say you get back to the room at midnight and manage to sleep a few hours. Which I normally did. I'd then be awake at 3am LA time. Here's the issue. No more sleep until guess when? around midnight - 2am SYD time which is about 6+am. Then I'd sleep like a baby until about 2pm, sometimes later. Go for a walk, buy stuff I don't need, play on the net and then go out for dinner feeling a million dollars around 6-7pm. Generally I would get back to the pub around 10pm LA time which is around 4-5pm (daylight savings here and there) and have a sleep. If you've been awake for 6 or 7 hours and try to sleep when your body tells you it's 5pm what happens? In my case, I'd sleep a few hours and be awake at 2-3am LA time/9-10pm SYD time. Then I would _really_ struggle to sleep, knowing I had to but simply couldn't. Try to have a 4 hour nap at 6pm and then wake up and try to sleep when you've already had 8 odd hours that day. It doesn't (for me) work. Call time is (from memory) 4:30/5am ish. Or around midnight SYD time. Try to imagine how you feel? The sound of the LA phone for that sector is embedded in my brain. I would often be going to work for that sector with my body telling me it's 1-2am and I hadn't slept anything like properly in at least 12 hours with at least 12 hours of never straightforward flying to go.

It's possible I've felt worse going to work, but I can't recall any standing out more than that offhand.

DM: Took me a while to write that. I'm on your side, I think I started first.... I wanted to explain carefully why it's so awful. I hope I sort of painted the right picture for people. Here's another thing. EVERYONE is different. If you've just come back from leave it's not so bad. I've you've just done 3 of them back to back you want to vomit.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I've worked shift work all my life. Rostered minimum 48 hrs in 4 days, usually more like 53-55, often 60 in five days, then 3 off, rinse and repeat. Days and nights. My Brother in law works 96 hrs in 8 days - 8 on 8 off. No sleeps on shift. Alert and working the whole time. How do you think a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 1 day off, a shift, then you're done for a couple of weeks sounds like to him?

[Street garbage]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

So they had 48 hrs off in LAX before doing a JFk leg, then 48hrs off before RTN LAX then 24 hrs off before BNE. Sounds pretty cruzy. 1 on 2 off 1 on 2 off 1 on 1 off 1 on then multiple days off. And a sleep during most work days. A lot of shift workers would love a roster like that.

Your post, like a lot of comments on this thread, show how little you know about long haul flying and the cumulative effects of sleep deprivation in combination with jet lag.

[Street garbage]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

I've worked shift work all my life. Rostered minimum 48 hrs in 4 days, usually more like 53-55, often 60 in five days, then 3 off, rinse and repeat. Days and nights. My Brother in law works 96 hrs in 8 days - 8 on 8 off. No sleeps on shift. Alert and working the whole time. How do you think a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 1 day off, a shift, then you're done for a couple of weeks sounds like to him?

Why don't you apply to QF if it's so easy, try it for a couple of years, and see what you think?

[neville_nobody]

I've worked shift work all my life. Rostered minimum 48 hrs in 4 days, usually more like 53-55, often 60 in five days, then 3 off, rinse and repeat. Days and nights. My Brother in law works 96 hrs in 8 days - 8 on 8 off. No sleeps on shift. Alert and working the whole time. How do you think a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 1 day off, a shift, then you're done for a couple of weeks sounds like to him?

What job are we talking about? How much concentration is required and for how long?? How many time zones are you passing through whilst at work?

If you think it's that easy, just do a self experiment trying the QF pattern at home and then try and do a complicated task that requires brain processing. Then remember you have never left your own timezone and have slept in your own bed.

[dragon man]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

I've worked shift work all my life. Rostered minimum 48 hrs in 4 days, usually more like 53-55, often 60 in five days, then 3 off, rinse and repeat. Days and nights. My Brother in law works 96 hrs in 8 days - 8 on 8 off. No sleeps on shift. Alert and working the whole time. How do you think a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 1 day off, a shift, then you're done for a couple of weeks sounds like to him?

Love to read the threat assessment done for that plus duty of care.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

If you think it's that easy, just do a self experiment trying the QF pattern at home and then try and do a complicated task that requires brain processing. Then remember you have never left your own timezone and have slept in your own bed.

Don’t forget to add in all the other factors that further exaerbate the impact e.g. poor nutrition (airline food), confined space, partly recycled / filtered air (with higher concentrations of atmospheric pathogens), elevated ambient noise, anxiety etc.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

I've worked shift work all my life. Rostered minimum 48 hrs in 4 days, usually more like 53-55, often 60 in five days, then 3 off, rinse and repeat. Days and nights. My Brother in law works 96 hrs in 8 days - 8 on 8 off. No sleeps on shift. Alert and working the whole time. How do you think a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 2 days off, a shift, 1 day off, a shift, then you're done for a couple of weeks sounds like to him?

I don’t envy your brother in law, but that doesn’t make my patterns any easier either.

In 20yrs of both short haul and long haul flying I’ve never felt so shattered than doing back to back BNE/LAX/JFK return patterns. Slag away all you will, but if you haven’t done them you can’t know how bad you feel after doing them back to back. My current record is 15 in a row - and that’s nothing compared to some.

[dragon man]

Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist

I don’t envy your brother in law, but that doesn’t make my patterns any easier either.

In 20yrs of both short haul and long haul flying I’ve never felt so shattered than doing back to back BNE/LAX/JFK return patterns. Slag away all you will, but if you haven’t done them you can’t know how bad you feel after doing them back to back. My current record is 15 in a row - and that’s nothing compared to some.

If you did 15 in a row without going sick you deserve a medal.

[FightDeck]

Project Sunset is the worse mix of super long duty, night flying and maximum jet lag and radiation.
One pattern possibly ok as a one off. But multiple patterns roster after roster as you age will put you in an early grave. One trial flight is not representative of 5,10,15 years of doing this kind of s&$#. Also how old are the guinea pigs doing the flights? 50s? 60s? What if the age limit goes to 67? Do we have a 65 year old doing one of the junket flights to see how that pilot tolerates it? It’s total unscientific bullish&$. Nothing more than a PR trip. Heard it’s all being specially catered with tailored healthy food and drinks for the 20 people on board including the crew just to add to the realism.
How many LHaul CPTs have died recently? Your health isn’t for sale. The science is developing to show this kind of operation is the riskiest and most damaging on your health. Anecdotes from company angels or office dwellers on F11 are non factual.

[V-Jet]

And if they aren’t back to back, what about Santiago or Johburg with Hong Kong in between.

Sadly it’s like explaining the Space Race to Amazonian tribesmen of the 1800’s. If you haven’t done it you simply can’t understand. Which is why airlines and journalists persecute crew. They don’t get it and never will.

Mate of mine resigned from EK because he was shattered after ten years. He’s now flying biz jets for a Mr Moneybags. A ‘normal’ flight would be SYD-HNL-NAS-whatever Bahamian Island the boat is at. And he will do that in one hop. Sounds horrible right?

Wrong! He will fly SYD-HNL-TOC then go to sleep to TOD NAS and feel a million dollars. Then the short hop to wherever (coupla hours after most) and bingo! Drinks and water sports on the yacht.

Straight from the horses mouth, the key to it is, he gets 5+ days off (usually 10) before he even thinks he might have to do it again. Because ‘the owners’ feel the same as he does.

FWIW he can’t believe anyone feels as bad flying commercial back of clock as they do when he’s found the money at least as good and ‘you’re so rarely tired when you go to work’ even if you are, you’re fine by the time you have to do it again....

[knobbycobby]

Indeed.
Show me the science and some data of doing many Sunrise trips in a roster. And many rosters back to back for a full year or years.
See a real world cumulative effect on health and sleep. A Realistic cross section of all crew.
And when the weather is **** in London or New York at the end of 24 hours of duty.

[morno]

Here's a thought to ponder. It appears obvious that the older generation would find it harder to tolerate long term long haul flying, so what about looking at it from a different perspective of this type of flying being for younger guys in the 20-40 year old range?

Please don't see this as antagonising any of you QFers (like you thought I was before), but maybe the whole "seniority" thing is partly where the problem lies. The Captain's (perhaps some older FO's as well) doing this flying are mostly in the latter stages on their careers/lives, and they're in these positions mostly because of seniority.

Perhaps it's not the type of flying people in the 45-65 year old age group should be doing?

Thoughts?

[Angle of Attack]

Actually a good point morno, but it ain’t gonna change and as long as they dont come to shorthaul Im happy! ��

[dragon man]

Originally Posted by morno

Here's a thought to ponder. It appears obvious that the older generation would find it harder to tolerate long term long haul flying, so what about looking at it from a different perspective of this type of flying being for younger guys in the 20-40 year old range?

Please don't see this as antagonising any of you QFers (like you thought I was before), but maybe the whole "seniority" thing is partly where the problem lies. The Captain's (perhaps some older FO's as well) doing this flying are mostly in the latter stages on their careers/lives, and they're in these positions mostly because of seniority.

Perhaps it's not the type of flying people in the 45-65 year old age group should be doing?

Thoughts?

My thoughts as an over 60. I cope better now than I did when younger, I come home and there’s no kids to deal with any more and a lot less pressure around the house to give me more time to recover. It doesn’t matter how you polish the turd long haul back to back flying across a huge time change is bloody tough.

[73qanda]

While we are putting left field ideas out there, here’s mine;
We are asking people to do something that is very physically demanding, in a professional environment, yet we are not giving them the training, nutritional support, coaching and mental skills training that is widely used and available to even non-professionals who undertake physically demanding tasks.
I suggest that ULH pilots be given access to personal trainers, physiotherapists, and mental skills coaches. That they be rostered sessions with each of the above monthly and provided with weekly nutrition packs delivered to their front doors by ‘Hello Fresh’ or a similar provider.
If we want people to be able to perform extraordinary feats of endurance ( calmly managing complex rapidly developing emergencies with high consequences after being airborne/awake for extended periods of time) then why not treat them like we treat our sports teams? We know that our sports teams would be soundly beaten if we didn’t provide them with these things, let’s hope our ULH pilots aren’t soundly beaten when it really counts.
( If all that sounds too expensive then just gas up in Singapore and do a crew swap. That works.)

[PPRuNeUser0198]

I feel sorry for the Middle Eastern crews that operate a majority of their flying at night and BOC. Those crews really suffer, and are accelerating the deleterious metabolic and cognitive outcomes as a result.

[C441]

Perhaps it's not the type of flying people in the 45-65 year old age group should be doing?

And it possibly won't be as the company's proposed award will mean that there is no financial reward for doing this type of flying. As a result, the seniority system will see the most junior bidding for it or being assigned to it whether they want it or not.

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by FightDeck

Project Sunset is the worse mix of super long duty, night flying and maximum jet lag and radiation.
One pattern possibly ok as a one off. But multiple patterns roster after roster as you age will put you in an early grave. One trial flight is not representative of 5,10,15 years of doing this kind of s&$#. Also how old are the guinea pigs doing the flights? 50s? 60s? What if the age limit goes to 67? Do we have a 65 year old doing one of the junket flights to see how that pilot tolerates it? It’s total unscientific bullish&$. Nothing more than a PR trip. Heard it’s all being specially catered with tailored healthy food and drinks for the 20 people on board including the crew just to add to the realism.
How many LHaul CPTs have died recently? Your health isn’t for sale. The science is developing to show this kind of operation is the riskiest and most damaging on your health. Anecdotes from company angels or office dwellers on F11 are non factual.

It is but another junket for turncoats like Stream Lead (former AIPA President) who now sits opposite those he claimed he used to represent.
Three re-routed delivery flights are worth as much scientifically as an assusrance from that former AIPA President: ZERO.