Project Sunrise
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If ANY pilot voted yes on a mythical contract with an imaginary airplane flying unknown routes with a barely agreed crew compliment in a yet to even be decided schedule, then said pilot has no place in the modern threat and error environment if they can’t manage said threats before they’ve even got to the car park for one of these proposed duties.
Well, there’s the crunch Galdian. It varies significantly dependent on individuals and factors such as age, previous flight status (cumulative fatigue) and health!
Two local nights (over a 48hour period) usually give two-nights (probable) rest and recovery, theoretically.
However, with New York City, one is well and truly out of one’s Time Zone so if you don’t get to sleep, one is totally “mashed” to operate! And that’s two-crew currently, in congested airspace!
Rest wise, it can be the same with crews in SCL, LON and the same in JNB.
Generally, 48 hours (two full local nights) and its time to go. As a lot of the SCL crews find extended time in-country doesn’t really help, in fact, it makes it harder to get a sound sleep.
Some of the Pilots stay on SYD time which they say works for them though a tad-anti social and dis-connected.
KLM maintained some years ago that it was better to get out of Dodge and head-home ASAP on LH Flight Patterns.
I personally believe the magic number is around 48 hours (encompassing 2 local nights) however schedules just don’t give that option all the time.
With what Qantas is allegedly proposing in Project Sunrise, as SYD-LON and SYD-JFK, there is to date, only a very uncertain and vague outline without any known data to draw upon regarding rest. The Regulator the Pilot Unions and the Pilots themselves would want to progress very cautiously with whatever is agreed. If it's agreed!
Two local nights (over a 48hour period) usually give two-nights (probable) rest and recovery, theoretically.
However, with New York City, one is well and truly out of one’s Time Zone so if you don’t get to sleep, one is totally “mashed” to operate! And that’s two-crew currently, in congested airspace!
Rest wise, it can be the same with crews in SCL, LON and the same in JNB.
Generally, 48 hours (two full local nights) and its time to go. As a lot of the SCL crews find extended time in-country doesn’t really help, in fact, it makes it harder to get a sound sleep.
Some of the Pilots stay on SYD time which they say works for them though a tad-anti social and dis-connected.
KLM maintained some years ago that it was better to get out of Dodge and head-home ASAP on LH Flight Patterns.
I personally believe the magic number is around 48 hours (encompassing 2 local nights) however schedules just don’t give that option all the time.
With what Qantas is allegedly proposing in Project Sunrise, as SYD-LON and SYD-JFK, there is to date, only a very uncertain and vague outline without any known data to draw upon regarding rest. The Regulator the Pilot Unions and the Pilots themselves would want to progress very cautiously with whatever is agreed. If it's agreed!
Longer the benefit reduces and makes the home turn worse.
If ANY pilot voted yes on a mythical contract with an imaginary airplane flying unknown routes with a barely agreed crew compliment in a yet to even be decided schedule, then said pilot has no place in the modern threat and error environment if they can’t manage said threats before they’ve even got to the car park for one of these proposed duties.
An enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA) can be registered with Fair Work Australia only if it leaves each worker better off overall. I don’t see how what Qantas is proposing can pass this in any shape or form.
Past experience has shown that you shouldn’t do both ports in the same roster for fatigue reasons.
I suspect what you’re really getting at is a sensible ‘interval’ between any series of east-bound ULH which follows a series of west-bound ULH or vice versa?
Another possibility, which may require lateral thinking wrt 5th freedoms, is “one-way” scheduling around the world. Eg;
- SYD-JFK-LHR-SYD over about ten days, or
- SYD-LHR-JFK-SYD in similar time.
Thus a pattern of ULH-Medium distance (even paxing?)-ULH may be a way of keeping pilots in a predictable, repeatable and consistent routine of ‘future duties preparedness’ from the time they start work in their home port.
Just thinking aloud....
Jetsbest,
Blimey!!!, everything old is new again.
"Back in the day", a typical PanAm roster for some ( you needed to be senior) crew was one round the world trip per month, either east or west ---- no long sectors, but plenty of long ToD, you started off east or west, and kept going.
Typically a two week trip, that accumulated the monthly pay hours in one go, rest of the month off.
Tootle pip!!
Blimey!!!, everything old is new again.
"Back in the day", a typical PanAm roster for some ( you needed to be senior) crew was one round the world trip per month, either east or west ---- no long sectors, but plenty of long ToD, you started off east or west, and kept going.
Typically a two week trip, that accumulated the monthly pay hours in one go, rest of the month off.
Tootle pip!!
Another possibility, which may require lateral thinking wrt 5th freedoms, is “one-way” scheduling around the world. Eg;
- SYD-JFK-LHR-SYD over about ten days, or
- SYD-LHR-JFK-SYD in similar time.
Thus a pattern of ULH-Medium distance (even paxing?)-ULH may be a way of keeping pilots in a predictable, repeatable and consistent routine of ‘future duties preparedness’ from the time they start work in their home port.
- SYD-JFK-LHR-SYD over about ten days, or
- SYD-LHR-JFK-SYD in similar time.
Thus a pattern of ULH-Medium distance (even paxing?)-ULH may be a way of keeping pilots in a predictable, repeatable and consistent routine of ‘future duties preparedness’ from the time they start work in their home port.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Agreed , but you know what that’s what Nathan Safe and Qantas are pushing. A vote in November and board decision early December. Send it to fair work I say for mediation. I’m still perplexed about the clause known as the coles clause.
An enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA) can be registered with Fair Work Australia only if it leaves each worker better off overall. I don’t see how what Qantas is proposing can pass this in any shape or form.
The Better Off Overall Test (BOOT) is a comparison between an Agreement and the relevant modern Award (Air Pilots Award 2010), not between an Agreement and its predecessor. The 777 Captain hourly rate under the Award is $81.86.
Brisbane based 747 crews for 3 years doing back to back JFK patterns
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I’ve never been as tired as doing a LHR, then after min base turnaround JFK. The sector from JFK to LAX two pilot was a punish.
Interesting Ted talk linking lack of sleep to cancer.....
http://t.ted.com/BFWOfuD
Interesting Ted talk linking lack of sleep to cancer.....
http://t.ted.com/BFWOfuD
I’ve never been as tired as doing a LHR, then after min base turnaround JFK. The sector from JFK to LAX two pilot was a punish.
Interesting Ted talk linking lack of sleep to cancer.....
http://t.ted.com/BFWOfuD
Interesting Ted talk linking lack of sleep to cancer.....
http://t.ted.com/BFWOfuD
Join Date: Jul 2015
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There’s a big thread on the airlinepilotforum.com where all the American pilots were talking about Matt Walkers interview with Joe Rogan episode #1109. Very relevant for all long haul pilots and probably also short haulers on high divisors.
They’ve recently discovered years of poor quality sleep has a direct link with chronic diseases such as heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer’s, dementia, obesity. He said this is because the body and brain starts to repair itself both mentally and physically only in the deep sleep (4th stage). The body only gets to this 4th stage of sleep if it achieves 7-9 hours of uninterrupted continuous sleep. Also unfortunately, alcohol prevents the body from getting to 4th stage of sleep.
Personally I’m relieved Project Sunrise is dead in the water just like red Q.
Last edited by Dunda; 14th Oct 2019 at 03:42.
No they didn’t. The slip was 48,48,24. The 48 in New York was a waste IMO and would have been better in Lax.
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They’ve recently discovered years of poor quality sleep has a direct link with chronic diseases such as heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer’s, dementia, obesity.
So they had 48 hrs off in LAX before doing a JFk leg, then 48hrs off before RTN LAX then 24 hrs off before BNE. Sounds pretty cruzy. 1 on 2 off 1 on 2 off 1 on 1 off 1 on then multiple days off. And a sleep during most work days. A lot of shift workers would love a roster like that.