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Project Sunrise

Old 6th Oct 2019, 02:05
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Why is QF any different to BA who have just had their CEO comprehensively embarrassed in the wide stream media over nearly identical claims?
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Old 6th Oct 2019, 04:04
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Originally Posted by flyingfrenchman
Why is QF any different to BA who have just had their CEO comprehensively embarrassed in the wide stream media over nearly identical claims?
The effect of the Chairman’s Lounge “invitational only access” is that Qantas owns the media - you won’t get any journalist to publish a balanced article, it’s always pro-Qantas spin.
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Old 6th Oct 2019, 05:43
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Originally Posted by Going Boeing


The effect of the Chairman’s Lounge “invitational only access” is that Qantas owns the media - you won’t get any journalist to publish a balanced article, it’s always pro-Qantas spin.
Not sure that applies to the Fairfax press, certainly before channel 9 took them over.
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Old 6th Oct 2019, 09:02
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend
I don't expect that the only sectors you'll do are theses ultra-long range flights with comfy rest areas and great meals and time off in a 4-5 star hotel. The 'greatest generation' didn't expect to be pampered..
TBM Legend,
A bit of fantasy on your part ------ I wonder why there was some much industrial unrest "back in the day" ---- have a look at the strikes and other action in the 50s-60s.
And, by and large, 4-5 star hotels simply didn't exist in many cities --- that would even consider aircrew contracts.
And the 45 retirement was strongly opposed --- and finally moved up by dribs and drabs ---- it was more industrial than medical!
Tootle pip!!
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Old 6th Oct 2019, 19:58
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The final years of Joyce’s tenure as CEO of Qantas will, to a large extent, be determined by the success or otherwise of Project Sunrise.
https://www.afr.com/chanticleer/aust...0191004-p52xsq

Chanticleer[img]https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_220%2C$height_220/t_crop_fill/e_sharpen:25%2Cq_85%2Cf_auto/25cc8c74f48b08a60ab02df02ab9d248a21c0ea2

Australia is Boeing's microcosm

Australia is the battleground for a bare-knuckle fight over which of Boeing or Airbus will supply aircraft for Qantas' so-called Project Sunrise.
Oct 5, 2019 —
Australia is also home to a particularly fierce battle between Boeing and its arch rival, Airbus, for technological supremacy in long-haul aviation. [img]https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_620/t_resize_width/e_sharpen:25%2Cq_85%2Cf_auto/36e443d620af63d2420091b4da12d33552162f93 Boeing's head of international, Sir Michael Arthur, was in Australia this week at an ideal time to prosecute Boeing's case to win a new contract with Qantas. Peter Braig

This bare-knuckle fight is over which company will supply the aircraft for Project Sunrise, which is Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce’s plan to launch non-stop flights from Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne to London and New York.

The final years of Joyce’s tenure as CEO of Qantas will, to a large extent, be determined by the success or otherwise of Project Sunrise. It is assumed Joyce met Sir Michael but a Boeing spokesman refused to reveal his appointments.

It so happens Sir Michael spoke to Chanticleer about Project Sunrise on the same day the World Trade Organisation ruled European governments had broken WTO rules by giving Airbus illegal subsidies.After 15 years of litigation the WTO said the US could impose tariffs on up to $US7.5 billion ($11.1 billion) in European Union exports.

US Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer said the tariffs on certain EU goods would start on October 18. In the process of announcing the US response, Lighthizer reminded the world the subsidies had harmed Boeing in Australia.

He said the WTO arbitrator found the ‘‘EU aid for Airbus is causing significant lost sales of Boeing large civil aircraft, as well as impeding exports of Boeing large aircraft to the EU, Australia, China, Korea, Singapore, and UAE markets’’. [img]https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.2981%2C$multiply_0.1322%2C$ratio_1.777778%2C$width_1 059%2C$x_0%2C$y_680/t_crop_custom/e_sharpen:25%2Cq_85%2Cf_auto/f59ab28d528f231479646f36c9dec4837912ac8c

RELATED

Boeing wants to double in size, and Australia is central to its plan

Sir Michael is confident Boeing will win the Qantas contract, just as it was successful in winning the Perth to London long-haul route with Qantas. That contract generated about $100 million in publicity for Boeing and Qantas, according to research commissioned by Qantas.

‘‘We think we’ve got a fantastic offering,’’ Sir Michael says.
‘‘Qantas has a challenge that’s unique in the world, and that is the distance factor. From Australia, getting point-to-point to the furthest cities in the world, we think we have a solution for that.’’

He says Boeing likes competition but only on a level playing field. ‘‘We never mind a fight but what we don’t like is an unfair fight,’’ he said.

‘‘The WTO had a statement which said that if they had not had these subsidies some of their aeroplanes would not exist – we believe that’s unfair competition.’’


Joyce said Qantas is working independently with both Boeing and Airbus on the performance and design parameters. A few months ago Qantas received ‘‘best and final’’ offers from both Airbus and Boeing for the aircraft. Both have proven they can do ‘‘critical missions’’ with a commercial payload.

Joyce will be on two Sunrise Project test flights of 787 Dreamliners which are coming off the production line at Boeing’s plant in Seattle over the next few months. They will be positioned in London and New York before being flown non-stop to Sydney.

The success or otherwise of Joyce’s strategy is tied up with the completion of a range of other negotiations with unions and regulators. For example, Qantas has asked pilots for productivity gains in order to make the business case.

At the moment the Civil Aviation Safety Authority does not allow pilots to travel for periods beyond 20 hours and the trip from Sydney to New York would be about 21 hours.

The fight between Boeing and Airbus is getting to the pointy end, with Joyce flagging a decision by the end of the year. This deal will not result in huge volumes of new aircraft being sold to Qantas, but it will have significant flow-on effects for the winning airline.

Qantas is regarded as a global leader in safety and endurance flying and that means the rest of the global aviation market will be keenly interested in what Joyce finally chooses.

Boeing and Airbus have competed fiercely for decades. In fact, there are some in aviation circles who believe their contest to build the most fuel-efficient planes had contributed to the accidents involving the 737 MAX, which killed 346 people in Indonesia and Ethiopia.

Sir Michael said it was a tough week for Boeing because it was the anniversary of the crash of the Lion Air Flight 610.


Advertisement‘‘This is a tough month for us. We have as a company for the last year been totally focused on how we can get out from that problem, because safety is paramount, and has been for 100 years.

‘‘We have thrown everything at making sure there are no lapses. We have improved the software. The software was one element in the chain of events in the accidents.’’

Safety, quality first

Sir Michael, who joined Boeing five years ago and is the only non-American on the executive committee, says the culture of the company has been shaped by a program called One Boeing.

He says this program puts safety and quality at the forefront of what the company does. [img]https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.2648%2C$multiply_0.1322%2C$ratio_1.777778%2C$width_1 059%2C$x_0%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/e_sharpen:25%2Cq_85%2Cf_auto/4a12c5e60a992142ef963434e65ef0b0682a7545

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Can Boeing's Muilenburg engineer a recovery course?

Sir Michael says Boeing is in daily contact with aviation regulators in the US, but the company is hopeful to have 737 MAX aircraft approved for flight before the end of the year.

‘‘We are confident when they are back in flight, this is the safest plane we have ever made,’’ he says. ‘‘We believe that. It’s not just a word of propaganda. Safety is the core of aviation and that’s what we live to do.’’

Stockmarket investors have not lost confidence in Boeing’s financial prospects because of the 737 MAX safety failures. The stock trades on a forward price earnings multiple of about 75, which is what you would pay for a fast-growing software company.

Only four of the 28 analysts that cover the stock have a ‘‘sell’’ recommendation, while 10 have a ‘‘hold’’ or ‘‘neutral’’ rating and the remainder label the stock a ‘‘buy’’.


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Old 6th Oct 2019, 20:13
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Im sorry is someone trying to say Boeing will spend tens of millions of $$$ to deliver the 15-20 aircraft Qantas want? Boeing doesnt give a crap about Qantas. As for supplying the aircraft for the PER-LON route that was by no means a special order.

Its been said before but again, Australia is such a tiny market any posturing by Joyce that he has convinced Boeing to bend over backwards for him on this is utter garbage.
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Old 6th Oct 2019, 20:16
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Originally Posted by Climb150
Im sorry is someone trying to say Boeing will spend tens of millions of $$$ to deliver the 15-20 aircraft Qantas want? Boeing doesnt give a crap about Qantas. As for supplying the aircraft for the PER-LON route that was by no means a special order.

Its been said before but again, Australia is such a tiny market any posturing by Joyce that he has convinced Boeing to bend over backwards for him on this is utter garbage.
Lots of bad press for Boeing, so get a non American to front the story.
A quiet news week in Australia, Little Napoleon desperate for column inches and this is the result.

Rubbish
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 05:57
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Originally Posted by What The
Do you know that for a fact? Or are you talking through your bum like your mate TBM?
Folks,
In the era of 45 retirement, superannuation was negligible, there was little option but to find another job ---- and licensing rules "in the day", as soon as you lost your airline job, you lost your ATPL, it reverted to an SCPL, making finding offshore employment very difficult --- which was exactly the intention of the licensing rules ---- it was not a happy time.
Tootle pip!!

Last edited by LeadSled; 7th Oct 2019 at 23:05.
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 06:19
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Originally Posted by Climb150
Im sorry is someone trying to say Boeing will spend tens of millions of $$$ to deliver the 15-20 aircraft Qantas want? Boeing doesnt give a crap about Qantas. As for supplying the aircraft for the PER-LON route that was by no means a special order.

Its been said before but again, Australia is such a tiny market any posturing by Joyce that he has convinced Boeing to bend over backwards for him on this is utter garbage.
Agreed. Why would Boeing care about a tiny market for a few planes? Oh wait, they don't.
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 09:06
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Actually, Airbus and Boeing do care about this Qantas deal very much, as it will be a proving ground for the equipment, and if successful - will trigger mass global airline orders since most of all of the airlines would be pleased with a super long-haul aeroplane to open up new markets, in particular with European and US airlines operating to / from Australia via many new points that are not currently served - securing monopolies (initially), and between other continents. This is a good test case before they take the financial gamble with unproven technology...
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 09:28
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This isn’t about project Sunrise, it’s about driving down existing T&C’s.

This is about getting pilots to accept a new deal on “the promise” of a new shiny jet. And if (read when) it doesn’t come to fruition, too bad you’ve already signed-off on the new T&C’s which now prevail.

Remember, the new shiny jet doesn’t exist until you walk out of the crew room & kick the tyres.

Be careful.

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Old 7th Oct 2019, 10:29
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Originally Posted by T-Vasis
Actually, Airbus and Boeing do care about this Qantas deal very much, as it will be a proving ground for the equipment, and if successful - will trigger mass global airline orders since most of all of the airlines would be pleased with a super long-haul aeroplane to open up new markets, in particular with European and US airlines operating to / from Australia via many new points that are not currently served - securing monopolies (initially), and between other continents. This is a good test case before they take the financial gamble with unproven technology...
Agreed. It’s not the first time Boeing would have customised an aeroplane just for Qantas. Think the 707.

I hope you get most of what you want Alan. Everyone whinging about Qantas not being competitive in the world, maybe it’s because of ridiculous pilot EBA’s.
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 13:13
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"someone trying to say Boeing will spend tens of millions of $$$ to deliver the 15-20 aircraft Qantas want? Boeing doesn't give a crap about Qantas"

I'm sure they 'd do it for you only "tens of millions"

Let's be a pessimist and say each of new aircraft costs an extra $100 mm to Mr B - which looks a lot on lists of circa $250- $300 mm say 30% - but that's not far off of what their margin is........... so bite the bullet, a bit of financial finagling on the support contracts and you've launched a "new" product backed by one of the few recognizable Airline Brands (I know.................). Gives them some headlines, parties, glad-handing politicians, energizes the sales force etc etc

Even if they don't sell another one it'll be a smaller write down than the windshield wiper or whatever they're still trying to get right on those USAF tankers................. or the door locks... or the

and these guys are SALESMEN - they only live to sell...................
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 14:06
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I’m on the fence as to whether the last 3 posts are sarcasm or not..
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 14:28
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Originally Posted by T-Vasis
Actually, Airbus and Boeing do care about this Qantas deal very much, as it will be a proving ground for the equipment, and if successful - will trigger mass global airline orders since most of all of the airlines would be pleased with a super long-haul aeroplane to open up new markets, in particular with European and US airlines operating to / from Australia via many new points that are not currently served - securing monopolies (initially), and between other continents. This is a good test case before they take the financial gamble with unproven technology...
So pretty much the only city pairs this will benefit is SYD-JFK and SYD-LHR.

Considering you can get to pretty much every other major city on earth from JFK and LHR already, I dont see where these new markets are.
You can already go JFK to Seoul, Narita, Bangkok, Singapore and Dehli etc.
LHR to all the same cities already possible.

So unless you can sell tickets cheaper than the 20+ airlines already doing 1 stop flights to LHR and JFK from SYD you dont have a business case.
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 17:17
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I look forward to the day I can say yeah but nah but yeah... look back at these posts.

If they can build an aircraft to do it will happen in my humble opinion. Direct flights work, or do they? PER - LHR certainly seems to be. No idea how how the new Singapore to New York is going?

A & B would certainly want to prove they can, QF may not have a huge order but as said it will be a derivative. QF use aircraft in other fleets that need replacing. Oh that’s right that have XXX 320/1 series on order, or wait that’s not to replace SH.

This thread is funny, second guessing on this and that.

Even funnier realising that yes Joe Public doesn’t give a fark about what the CEO earns, he saved the airline. However those pesky overpaid pilots are the ones holding back growth. It may all be cow manure but it’s what Joe believes that counts!

Good luck, hang on can I join as a sandwich officer and do two trips a month?
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 22:43
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People in the cabin – mostly Qantas employees – will be fitted with wearable technology devices and take part in specific experiences at varying stages of the approximately 19 hour flights. Scientists and medical experts from the Charles Perkins Centre will monitor sleep patterns, food and beverage consumption, lighting, physical movement and inflight entertainment to assess impact on health, wellbeing and body clock.
How random is the "sample" for this "science"? /sarc

Former AIPA President, now lead IR negotiator, allegedly on the "guest" list...

Ten pieces of silver..

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/me...-to-australia/
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 22:54
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Originally Posted by Rated De
How random is the "sample" for this "science"? /sarc

Former AIPA President, now lead IR negotiator, allegedly on the "guest" list...

Ten pieces of silver..

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/me...-to-australia/
What about the upgrade staff travel category, isn’t that worth more than ten pieces of silver.
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Old 8th Oct 2019, 00:30
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The real stumbling block here with these very long flights is speed. We have come as far as we can with the current crop of Airliners, efficiency is all that's left to ring out of them.
We live in a fast society where we want it & want it now. 20 hrs locked away in some cramped metal tube is almost intolerable, speed we need more speed...………….I feel the need, the need for speed:-)
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Old 8th Oct 2019, 02:43
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Originally Posted by morno


Agreed. It’s not the first time Boeing would have customised an aeroplane just for Qantas. Think the 707.

I hope you get most of what you want Alan. Everyone whinging about Qantas not being competitive in the world, maybe it’s because of ridiculous pilot EBA’s.
Morno, pretty obvious from your posts you are another QF pilot hater, how about..I will be in QF 42 years if I make it to 65 (not likely.). In those 42 years, I will make less than a 1/3rd of what Mr Joyce made last year. $495k a week. QF has the most overbloated and highest page Management in Aviation. Point in case: British Airways CEO; 5 times as large, 500k last year (pound), 1.3mil this year. How many f@@king times does one have to say pilot operating costs are 3% of the overall costs?
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