Project Sunrise
It may be a focus of the next EBA in a few years time (transfer between 787 and 330/350). Offsets will be wanted in order for it to happen. But I think it’d be something worth pushing for.
But don’t forget the important point. If the vote is a no, then there’s zero point negotiating changing the rules regarding 787 and 330/350 transfer. Because the 350 won’t be flown by mainline pilots.
Get the jets first, then worry about the transfer rules which can be amended later.
Like I stated earlier with the short haul EBA. AIPA got hold of it just around the time QF introduced the ‘B’ scale.
It took some years but AIPA got rid of it. At the cost of some offsets of course but the point is in time it was negotiated out.
The big aim is to keep the flying and work on the other points later.
It took some years but AIPA got rid of it. At the cost of some offsets of course but the point is in time it was negotiated out.
The big aim is to keep the flying and work on the other points later.
Also if it gets voted up AJ will spruce about it like he always does. Claiming a big win to the institutional investors realising his promise to rejig the cost base.
Then we quietly go about cleaning it up without making a big fanfare about it.
All the while keeping the flying!
Dont let ego f... it up!
Then we quietly go about cleaning it up without making a big fanfare about it.
All the while keeping the flying!
Dont let ego f... it up!
Ruvap et al....
So if no gets through what are you going to give up for the company’s 3%?
Because at the moment everyone gets 3% without doing anything and back pay.
All the gives are on the 350 and new hires, which you already set the precedent for in EA 9!
As has been mentioned with Coronavirus, AJ will insist most probably upon another pay freeze for all current EA negotiations. And also no back pay.
Secondly if you allow another entity to be set up, he will play both off against each other for ever and a day.
And enough about this ‘may’ let us transfer over or maybe AIPA can put in a clause.....it will be all over!
Negotiations finished!
Do you get it!
So if no gets through what are you going to give up for the company’s 3%?
Because at the moment everyone gets 3% without doing anything and back pay.
All the gives are on the 350 and new hires, which you already set the precedent for in EA 9!
As has been mentioned with Coronavirus, AJ will insist most probably upon another pay freeze for all current EA negotiations. And also no back pay.
Secondly if you allow another entity to be set up, he will play both off against each other for ever and a day.
And enough about this ‘may’ let us transfer over or maybe AIPA can put in a clause.....it will be all over!
Negotiations finished!
Do you get it!
CEO Greg Foran has offered to reduce his base pay by about 15 per cent, while the company's executive team will extend a freeze on its salaries that has been in place since May 2019, the airline said.
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Could we hold a straw poll? How many of you guys are expats hoping to come home?
The deal is a ***** sandwich, but upon further consideration, a few points worth considering.
1. I don’t want to do the sunrise flying, but I have colleagues who do so I’d rather the flying go to them than the expats
2. MVF sux, but MVF will only be around until the 330 retires
3. SO pay sux. But, the new SO pay will only be effective once project sunrise commences. Therefore, if the 350s don’t arrive, the new SO pay won’t eventuate. If the 350s do arrive, at least the new SO applicants will be aware of what they are getting themselves in for.
4. We will mourn the loss of 380 conditions. Although, it’s well know that the 380 pay will be vastly different going forward anyway. It’s widely acknowledged that the 380 will be pulled off the US trips and put onto Asian flying. It’s more suited to 9 hour sectors.
5. Current 9 days London trips with credit of 55 hours and 7:15 AFDP suck. The proposed 350 LHR flights is 6 days trip, 42 credit hours, 9.5 AFDP, with higher allowances.
The deal is a ***** sandwich, but upon further consideration, a few points worth considering.
1. I don’t want to do the sunrise flying, but I have colleagues who do so I’d rather the flying go to them than the expats
2. MVF sux, but MVF will only be around until the 330 retires
3. SO pay sux. But, the new SO pay will only be effective once project sunrise commences. Therefore, if the 350s don’t arrive, the new SO pay won’t eventuate. If the 350s do arrive, at least the new SO applicants will be aware of what they are getting themselves in for.
4. We will mourn the loss of 380 conditions. Although, it’s well know that the 380 pay will be vastly different going forward anyway. It’s widely acknowledged that the 380 will be pulled off the US trips and put onto Asian flying. It’s more suited to 9 hour sectors.
5. Current 9 days London trips with credit of 55 hours and 7:15 AFDP suck. The proposed 350 LHR flights is 6 days trip, 42 credit hours, 9.5 AFDP, with higher allowances.
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6. 350 routes. There is no change to 2 and 3 crew ops. Therefore if for some reason the 350 gets deployed on Asian sectors, it would be on 747 pay rates inclusive of night credits and AFDP. However, it deployed on LAX, it would u less pay than 787.
3. SO pay sux. But, the new SO pay will only be effective once project sunrise commences. Therefore, if the 350s don’t arrive, the new SO pay won’t eventuate. If the 350s do arrive, at least the new SO applicants will be aware of what they are getting themselves in for.
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Tino has already conceded in a webinar that if a seperate entity were to be setup, he expects some current mainline pilots would bid across and this is exactly how we all should be thinking about it. Obviously they plan to allow such a mechanism. It could actually mean a quicker promotion by voting NO for some pilots. Maybe AIPA should get a clause put into the deal which leaves existing pilots with first rights to new positions in the new entity if in fact they proceed down that path in the event of a NO vote. I think a win/win is achieved by voting NO and gives AIPA another chance at renegotiating an new EBA ex the A350 ops. VOTE NO.
Read the FAQ released by the company. There is NO guarantee of being allowed to move over to the new entity. Flawed argument.
If you are not aware, bargaining and negotiations have finished. They are not interested in talking about the details of the new entity. There will be no such clause put into the EBA. There wasn't even one for Jetstar.
To vote NO in the hopes of quick career progression is laughable. Seriously? The only way to guarantee that promotion to mainline pilots, is to have the 350 in mainline!
If a NO vote gets up (which is looking highly unlikely), I wish you best of luck re-negotiating EBA 10 given the current climate. Pay freezes for all. No guaranteed 3%. Stagnation in career progression. More LWOP. Redundancy's is even a possibility.
Given the current situation (which has worked out perfectly well for the company), the offer on the table is a GOOD DEAL.
I suggest you heed the advice given from the AIPA President & VP.
Well yes, but if Sunrise doesn't go ahead, there is going to be any hiring for a very long time.
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have a look for yourself. The company email sent on 06/03/20. Page two of the attached package.
Yes it will apply to SOs on 380/330/350. But as for the timing of when it applies, this is clear. New hire S/O rates to apply no earlier than 1 January 2022 & subject to A350 orders.
itsnotthatbloodyhard,
have a look for yourself. The company email sent on 06/03/20. Page two of the attached package.
Yes it will apply to SOs on 380/330/350. But as for the timing of when it applies, this is clear. New hire S/O rates to apply no earlier than 1 January 2022 & subject to A350 orders.
have a look for yourself. The company email sent on 06/03/20. Page two of the attached package.
Yes it will apply to SOs on 380/330/350. But as for the timing of when it applies, this is clear. New hire S/O rates to apply no earlier than 1 January 2022 & subject to A350 orders.
From an outsiders perspective I certainly don’t envy the position QF pilots have been put in with the proposed offer.
I will suggest this though - an EA negotiation is just that. It’s a compromise between both parties and is constantly a work in progress. I implore you all to look at what has happened at Eastern and Sunstate, at QF SH and JQ, and arguably Cobham 717 and Network F100. The single most important thing that you have is a pilot group on one agreement that is not under direct threat from another group entity with another (cheaper) agreement. This is worth its weight in gold.
You must all give serious consideration to securing the flying now - if the aircraft is still 3 years away, you’ll be in negotiations again when the aircraft has arrived and the operation is in its infancy.
It is also worth considering AJ won’t be in the seat forever - you will eventually be dealing with another CEO (this could be good or it could be bad). You may also have a different AIPA Executive - one that may wish to take a more ‘hard line’ approach. That approach will again be much simpler and probably more effective if you have the aircraft secured. You’ll be bargaining from a position of strength - and if you have been doing this ultra long haul flying for 1-2 years, the flying public certainly won’t be arguing with you if you come out next time and say “we need more restrictions, this flying is not safe if we go on like this forever’. The safety card is AIPAs biggest strength - but play it once you have secured the aircraft.
I will suggest this though - an EA negotiation is just that. It’s a compromise between both parties and is constantly a work in progress. I implore you all to look at what has happened at Eastern and Sunstate, at QF SH and JQ, and arguably Cobham 717 and Network F100. The single most important thing that you have is a pilot group on one agreement that is not under direct threat from another group entity with another (cheaper) agreement. This is worth its weight in gold.
You must all give serious consideration to securing the flying now - if the aircraft is still 3 years away, you’ll be in negotiations again when the aircraft has arrived and the operation is in its infancy.
It is also worth considering AJ won’t be in the seat forever - you will eventually be dealing with another CEO (this could be good or it could be bad). You may also have a different AIPA Executive - one that may wish to take a more ‘hard line’ approach. That approach will again be much simpler and probably more effective if you have the aircraft secured. You’ll be bargaining from a position of strength - and if you have been doing this ultra long haul flying for 1-2 years, the flying public certainly won’t be arguing with you if you come out next time and say “we need more restrictions, this flying is not safe if we go on like this forever’. The safety card is AIPAs biggest strength - but play it once you have secured the aircraft.
Put on your flack jackets RIN coming with aircraft grounding. Don’t shoot the messenger boys and girls if it hasn’t been announced by Friday I’ll apologise.
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Profit = Income - Costs
Who cares what your costs are when you have no income.
If things change, the price of oil will increase again. Hedge you say! Who is going to take the other side of the trade at the moment? The implied volatility is off the charts making the future price extremely uncertain, and therefore expensive to hedge, if any counterparty would even be willing to trade.
Who cares what your costs are when you have no income.
If things change, the price of oil will increase again. Hedge you say! Who is going to take the other side of the trade at the moment? The implied volatility is off the charts making the future price extremely uncertain, and therefore expensive to hedge, if any counterparty would even be willing to trade.
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You have the worst argument logic I've possibly ever seen. You use incorrect information and can't foresee see two weeks into the future.
Have a good read of the document released today. The deal is not that bad. It will be even worse with a NO vote given the circumstances lately. Not only will the 350s be taken off the table, there is a good chance you will lose the 3% pay rises as well.
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The virus impact will rebound. It may take 6 months, 12 months but unlikely to continue beyond this southern winter, or at worst next northern winter.
There's no reason retraining substantial amounts of crew and then in 12 months retraining them back to their original positions.
What will almost certainly happen. Forced allocation of leave, VR packages offered, maybe a mutual dropping of divisors to absorb excess crew. But due to the likelihood of a "V" shaped rebound once this panic is over (basically people who had stopped flying all want to fly again suddenly) you had better have resources ready to go when the rebound occurs.
Fully making a large number well trained pilots redundant only to re-employ them in a year or so is ridiculous. What I could see is a situation similar to the "furloughs" that happened in the US in the 2000's. A situation of LWOP is enforced on those junior in each rank (with union approval of course). Or pilots are asked (or have enforced) LWOP periods amongst all crew for 1/2/3 months spread amongst crew in order to ensure all crew are relatively current for when the demand for flying resumes. The one thing is with a global lack of flying demand the company probably couldn't find a LWOP arrangement with any other carriers.
A bit of short term pain spread evenly may be the best way to manage this situation. But again, it'll be over this year or next at most. The A350 isn't due here until 2023. The board makes long term decisions when looking at aircraft purchases. It really is a separate discussion to management of excess crew due to a temporary coronavirus lack of flying.
Last edited by dr dre; 9th Mar 2020 at 03:46.
Dragon Man, a RIN on what fleet?
The 744 would be the first candidate as we are expecting one this year. Advertised soon when the yearly spots are also advertised.
Are they bringing that forward?
The other fleets I’d be surprised with? Grounding some A380’s, perhaps?
Anyhoot, they have to go through some other steps first. Assigning leave and exhausting the leave balance on type.
With what’s happening OS I wouldn’t be surprised though.
The 744 would be the first candidate as we are expecting one this year. Advertised soon when the yearly spots are also advertised.
Are they bringing that forward?
The other fleets I’d be surprised with? Grounding some A380’s, perhaps?
Anyhoot, they have to go through some other steps first. Assigning leave and exhausting the leave balance on type.
With what’s happening OS I wouldn’t be surprised though.
It will not be the 747 they want to keep it ,the 787 and 330 flying as they lose less money that way. My own personal opinion only is that when the 380s are grounded they won’t come back. The 1/2 to London I believe will both be a 787 going thru Perth, logically Dallas must be on the chopping block as the loads have fallen greatly recently, Lax is needed as the 380s get maintained there so I’m guessing that SYD/MLB/LAX remain 380s. Dallas and London 787, MLB/BNE TO NRT cancelled 747 to Haneda remains. Chicago anyone’s guess and BNE/MLB to SFO maybe cancelled with either a 747 back on the run or only a daily 787 from Sydney. Also have to wonder if JFK will go. There was a meeting on Friday at QCC announcement I’m told tomorrow. As Confucius said, we live in interesting times.