Project Sunrise
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
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Normanton, for a guy who at max has been at mainline for 3 years (and almost certainly still an SO still benefitting from the ‘A’ scale), you seem very opinionated and very upset with how others with vastly more experience with the company’s industrial tactics might vote differently to you.
That’s not to say you should be told how to vote, but your continual and constant defeatist negativity should be put in context for all other posters with the fact that you are relatively very new to all of this at QF.
That’s not to say you should be told how to vote, but your continual and constant defeatist negativity should be put in context for all other posters with the fact that you are relatively very new to all of this at QF.
To provide some further context, heres a quote from one of your esteemed 747 pilots in the NO camp: "I’m looking forward to my vote ... it will be FUN (F*** U Nathan)."
Thats the sort of shortsighted, selfish views many of you have. They don't care, they will be retired in x years.
The only common sense reply’s I’ve had to my questions so far have come from beer_baron. Thanks for that, it’s taken on board!
Last edited by normanton; 1st Mar 2020 at 21:22.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Really? That’s where you’re going brodle? I’ve conceded this point a number of times that what is on offer is not as good as current black book conditions. I note you haven’t done the figures yourself but that’s OK, I’ll give them to you know. Hope you trust them.
SYD-LHR-SYD
Black book: 48 credit hours (perhaps up to 3 hours less depending on the schedule) and about 28.5 hours of overtime. Total remuneration on current A330 rate would be $22,626.64
The proposed MVF will be 42:20 credit and 9.5 hours of overtime. Total remuneration on proposed MVF rate (2018 dollars) $16,098
If the 787 could do it it would be a straight 40 credit hours. Total remuneration 787 year 4 (2018 dollars) $14,121
For a PER-LHR- PER (current schedule)
Blackbook. 41:10 credit, 18 hours of overtime. $17508
MVF: 34:46 credit, 6:40 overtime. $12856
787: 34:25 credit. 0 overtime. $12,144
So if you want to hold out for the black book conditions, why does an MVF pilot deserve $17.5K on a route where Qantas pilots agreed that $12.2K is an acceptable rate? An extra 5.8% beyond the 787 MVF flying seems reasonable in that context?
Of course, the black book isn’t on offer for these routes. It will never be on offer so it really is a bit of a moot point. The question is whether what Qantas is offering for the MVF is reasonable or not.
If you want a better deal than what is on offer, how much better? How much extra time off or extra $$$ beyond the 787 on the PER-LHR-PER route is reasonable?
So far I’ve answered any questions asked of me. That courtesy has rarely been returned.
I’m obviously not who you think I am. I am not a Senior Check Captain in Qantas Airways.
SYD-LHR-SYD
Black book: 48 credit hours (perhaps up to 3 hours less depending on the schedule) and about 28.5 hours of overtime. Total remuneration on current A330 rate would be $22,626.64
The proposed MVF will be 42:20 credit and 9.5 hours of overtime. Total remuneration on proposed MVF rate (2018 dollars) $16,098
If the 787 could do it it would be a straight 40 credit hours. Total remuneration 787 year 4 (2018 dollars) $14,121
For a PER-LHR- PER (current schedule)
Blackbook. 41:10 credit, 18 hours of overtime. $17508
MVF: 34:46 credit, 6:40 overtime. $12856
787: 34:25 credit. 0 overtime. $12,144
So if you want to hold out for the black book conditions, why does an MVF pilot deserve $17.5K on a route where Qantas pilots agreed that $12.2K is an acceptable rate? An extra 5.8% beyond the 787 MVF flying seems reasonable in that context?
Of course, the black book isn’t on offer for these routes. It will never be on offer so it really is a bit of a moot point. The question is whether what Qantas is offering for the MVF is reasonable or not.
If you want a better deal than what is on offer, how much better? How much extra time off or extra $$$ beyond the 787 on the PER-LHR-PER route is reasonable?
So far I’ve answered any questions asked of me. That courtesy has rarely been returned.
I’m obviously not who you think I am. I am not a Senior Check Captain in Qantas Airways.
Thanks Little Birdie,
I am aware of the ~30% salary loss of the sunrise contract relative to our current 'black book' contract; thank you for pointing it out. My main concern is the loss of credited hours per days worked and the need to go to work more often to fill a bid period divisor. I haven't read all of your posts so I didn't realise that you'd already made the case for sunrise of more work for significantly less pay.
In regards to answering all my questions, with respect, I don't think you have. To be straight, are you a Qantas Pilot who has been enlisted by Qantas to push the case for sunrise via various means including social media. I understand if you believe this to be none of my business, however it's important for people to have faith in the system and please feel free to ask any questions yourself and Ill return the courtesy.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Hi Ruprecht,
It is not an accusation; 'are you' is not 'you are'. It is a question.
I have deliberately asked this question on pprune for its anonymity, I have no intention of naming anyone.
I have no temper and have little concern either way as to the result of this EA....My concern is the ethics of the EA process.
It is not an accusation; 'are you' is not 'you are'. It is a question.
I have deliberately asked this question on pprune for its anonymity, I have no intention of naming anyone.
I have no temper and have little concern either way as to the result of this EA....My concern is the ethics of the EA process.
July 31 2018
Originally Posted by KZ Kiwi
Regularly do 4 sector days with 30min turnarounds and in the majority of cases get back on time.....even with the occasional aircraft swap
Originally Posted by KZ Kiwi
It's law here in NZ and therefore required. Simple as that.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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After listening to today’s webinar I’m interested to know what people’s sticking points are. What specifically would a decided no-voter need to see to have them change their mind to a yes-vote?
I personally see the offer as being acceptable.
I am so far unconvinced of the risk vs reward in voting no.
I personally see the offer as being acceptable.
I am so far unconvinced of the risk vs reward in voting no.
Join Date: Oct 2019
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QF's future fleet plans and the EA matter a lot to me, and I want to get as many perspectives as I can - not just what people will say to my face and in front of others.
This thread is over 1200 posts long. People care about it. I don't think you need to resort to Angels and astroturfing to explain why people are coming out of the woodwork to discuss it - this is just something that more of us have a stake in.
Join Date: Jun 2010
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"I want to stick it to the company"
and
"I’m looking forward to my vote ... it will be FUN (F*** U Nathan)."
Thats the sort of crap senior pilots are blurting out. Very mature.
I agree. I am yet to be convinced otherwise.
I agree also.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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May I pose this.
If this gets voted down and the company does set up a new entity. If PIA and whatever other legal cards AIPA has to play fail to prevent the new entity from stealing our flying, and knowing that with or without the A350 we must still eventually agree to a new EBA.
Forget the sunrise flying... what does EBA10 and LH look like without it, and what happens to our pilot group both SH and LH over the next 5-10 years?
What are we voting for? With what bargaining power?
By no means have I made up my mind until I see a document and hear what AIPA has to say about it. But this decision is much more than just a “Yes” or a “No” by electronic ballot. Either decision will have huge ramifications for many hundreds if not thousands of pilots careers.
I think Adrian said it best:
”... that’s a disgrace. I am deeply disappointed to work for a company that would bully its employees in such a manner...”
and so am I. Quite frankly it’s disgusting, but equally...
I think it’s a disgrace and I am deeply disappointed to work with colleagues that would vote No just to stick it to the company.
Grow up, make a decision and vote with your head. This isn’t a game.
If this gets voted down and the company does set up a new entity. If PIA and whatever other legal cards AIPA has to play fail to prevent the new entity from stealing our flying, and knowing that with or without the A350 we must still eventually agree to a new EBA.
Forget the sunrise flying... what does EBA10 and LH look like without it, and what happens to our pilot group both SH and LH over the next 5-10 years?
What are we voting for? With what bargaining power?
By no means have I made up my mind until I see a document and hear what AIPA has to say about it. But this decision is much more than just a “Yes” or a “No” by electronic ballot. Either decision will have huge ramifications for many hundreds if not thousands of pilots careers.
I think Adrian said it best:
”... that’s a disgrace. I am deeply disappointed to work for a company that would bully its employees in such a manner...”
and so am I. Quite frankly it’s disgusting, but equally...
I think it’s a disgrace and I am deeply disappointed to work with colleagues that would vote No just to stick it to the company.
Grow up, make a decision and vote with your head. This isn’t a game.
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Can we say either a no or yes vote is too risky or right or wrong?
If we vote yes will the company retire the 330/380’s (and the LHEA!) and rin us all to the 350/787 or will they stay true to their word?
If we vote no will the company start a Greenfield’s operation or continue to negotiate?
We don’t know the companies plan, so we can’t accurately calculate the risk.
So our choices are based on some facts, counterfactual hypothesis, lots of deception and ‘Gut feeling”.
Considering that the sub conscious makes decisions as well (or better) as your conscious mind and that ‘Tit for Tat’
is an evolutionary stable strategy then someone voting with their ‘head’ (IMHO) is no more correct than someone voting
on emotion.
Calling someones choices ‘a disgrace’ could also be seen as emotional and not thinking with your head.
If we vote yes will the company retire the 330/380’s (and the LHEA!) and rin us all to the 350/787 or will they stay true to their word?
If we vote no will the company start a Greenfield’s operation or continue to negotiate?
We don’t know the companies plan, so we can’t accurately calculate the risk.
So our choices are based on some facts, counterfactual hypothesis, lots of deception and ‘Gut feeling”.
Considering that the sub conscious makes decisions as well (or better) as your conscious mind and that ‘Tit for Tat’
is an evolutionary stable strategy then someone voting with their ‘head’ (IMHO) is no more correct than someone voting
on emotion.
Calling someones choices ‘a disgrace’ could also be seen as emotional and not thinking with your head.
Joyce and Tino are both on the public result stating to all who will listen that if the EBA does not get up then they will set up a new entity to do the sunrise flying. Tino has even written formally to Qantas pilots saying such. There are some who think they are bluffing. Do you really believe these guys will bet their personal and professional reputations on a bluff such as this? Let’s assume they have and their bluff is called, how do you thing the Power of the Qantas IR machine is now looking? They have now left themselves open to every Union with in Qantas. Hard to believe they would set themselves up like this. These guys have form, and as has been proven in the past they will not blink at spending a fortune to get their way industrially. Backing down on their word is not a trait they have previously displayed.
No one likes the game they have played, it stinks, but they have painted the pilots into a difficult position. Risk vs Reward has been mentioned a few times, this is ultimately what it is coming down to. Do your own personal risk assessment, and be sure you can live with the consequences.
No one likes the game they have played, it stinks, but they have painted the pilots into a difficult position. Risk vs Reward has been mentioned a few times, this is ultimately what it is coming down to. Do your own personal risk assessment, and be sure you can live with the consequences.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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