Project Sunrise
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Easy. Don’t bid to fly it. Stay on the 380. No one is holding a gun to YOUR head or go and fly the 73 for a few years to get a reality adjustment then tell us what’s so bad with the proposal. It’s what pilots do in their down time that’s probably more detrimental to their health than the effects of long haul flying. Lay off the booze, get fit and stop perusing Pprune to name a few points. It’s a real pity that something positive just like Per LHR is being hijacked by the Chicken Littles once again to suit their own agenda. Qantas need a new fleet? Well this is one way we’re going to get one!
What you are being sold is not science.
If Qantas decide that they will conduct a longitudinal study of sufficient duration with wide sampling, then perhaps your colleagues will have choices that, backed by science will provide them with a well compensated workplace that isn't a danger to their health. As you know, Qantas like many airlines have a very valid sample of relevant health outcomes. What do ya reckon' the rates of illness for certain diseases are for cabin crew and pilots?
Ever wonder why Qantas (and other airlines) don't disclose that sort of science in support of tour of duty extensions?
Quite correct though, pilots are like bower birds.
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The research flight is nothing more than a PR parade. It is not science.
It is half a pattern. It’s only a grand total of 3 flights. A one off flight isn’t representative of a full roster of ultra long haul trips like this for multiple rosters. It’s as insulting as Tino’s email.
It won’t be good for your long term health and what the Qantas angel is sprouting is total rubbish.
Heard from a number of sources is as much of a reality as Red Q or Jetstar HKG. Poorly organised and set for failure.
It is half a pattern. It’s only a grand total of 3 flights. A one off flight isn’t representative of a full roster of ultra long haul trips like this for multiple rosters. It’s as insulting as Tino’s email.
It won’t be good for your long term health and what the Qantas angel is sprouting is total rubbish.
Heard from a number of sources is as much of a reality as Red Q or Jetstar HKG. Poorly organised and set for failure.
Could 200 if the duty limit issues are solved ‘appropriately’
Could be 900 if pilot attrition due health issues aren’t solved ‘appropriately’
Could be none if Joyce gets what he considers appropriate bonuses as there won’t be anything left for aircraft.
But play the hope card hard as you can, it seems to be working for you. And if all else fails, a complete inability to look facts in the face might just see you through!
It’s sad the effect that mainlining KoolAid has on people. This degenerative social affliction is recognised all too late. Once the addiction has taken hold, it is all but impossible to remove.
Could 200 if the duty limit issues are solved ‘appropriately’
Could be 900 if pilot attrition due health issues aren’t solved ‘appropriately’
Could be none if Joyce gets what he considers appropriate bonuses as there won’t be anything left for aircraft.
But play the hope card hard as you can, it seems to be working for you. And if all else fails, a complete inability to look facts in the face might just see you through!
30+ years - How did that Concorde Command work out for you then??
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Qantas ATK growth is negative; that is for those afflicted with shiny things, the increase in capacity of Qantas International has not materialised.
What has driven "growth" is demographic based retirement, extended periods of little training and not much else.
What has driven "growth" is demographic based retirement, extended periods of little training and not much else.
Not sh it Sherlock. Do your command then you’ll feel better. Either that or go up the Murray fishing.
There are so many retirements in the next 5-10 years as the big wave of 80s joiners retires. Google global pilot shortage.
The 400 mentioned are Due to retirements anyway and include residuals.
Qantas said the 787 was all for growth. The chief pilot now says it’s a 747 replacement. So we have all these promotions now because of a replacement type? You can’t keep lying to pilots for decades and expect to get the same result. Dixon promised pilots every FO would soon have a command in 2004.
And one day Alan woke up and decided to ground an airline. Must have forgotten he sent lock out letters days earlier. Constant lies.
The difference this time is few people want to do back to back trips of 23 hour night flying to London on Sunrise. Many Long Haul pilots have died recently of heart attacks and cancer. People are realising that the scientific data showing jet lag and night flying is very poor for your long term health is a reality. The flying that sunrise does is the extreme of what’s bad for you.
Its only going to be for 10-12 hulls to replace the A380 anyway. Exactly the same as the 787 replacing the 747 as Chief pilot says.
Unless the contract pays well and acknowledges the hazardous nature of the repeated work it will not be accepted.
We are being lied to again and the science needs to be proved correctly. At the moment its nothing more than a Joyce PR show. Aggressive letters insulting pilots from Tino just to add to the circus.
The 400 mentioned are Due to retirements anyway and include residuals.
Qantas said the 787 was all for growth. The chief pilot now says it’s a 747 replacement. So we have all these promotions now because of a replacement type? You can’t keep lying to pilots for decades and expect to get the same result. Dixon promised pilots every FO would soon have a command in 2004.
And one day Alan woke up and decided to ground an airline. Must have forgotten he sent lock out letters days earlier. Constant lies.
The difference this time is few people want to do back to back trips of 23 hour night flying to London on Sunrise. Many Long Haul pilots have died recently of heart attacks and cancer. People are realising that the scientific data showing jet lag and night flying is very poor for your long term health is a reality. The flying that sunrise does is the extreme of what’s bad for you.
Its only going to be for 10-12 hulls to replace the A380 anyway. Exactly the same as the 787 replacing the 747 as Chief pilot says.
Unless the contract pays well and acknowledges the hazardous nature of the repeated work it will not be accepted.
We are being lied to again and the science needs to be proved correctly. At the moment its nothing more than a Joyce PR show. Aggressive letters insulting pilots from Tino just to add to the circus.
As above - exactly.
There is no getting around the shrinkage. It leaps from every pore of the company. The only time expansion is genuinely referred to is when massive pay concessions are ‘required’.
IE ‘We will do X (which we demonstrably can’t afford to do) but of course there is no way we can even contemplate that sort of expenditure unless we get Y in staff agreements’. Even if Y is provided, it will immediately be absorbed in Exec pay rises.
There is a place for naïveté and I do admire those who possess it, but there does come a time when it has to be recognised for what it is.
There is no getting around the shrinkage. It leaps from every pore of the company. The only time expansion is genuinely referred to is when massive pay concessions are ‘required’.
IE ‘We will do X (which we demonstrably can’t afford to do) but of course there is no way we can even contemplate that sort of expenditure unless we get Y in staff agreements’. Even if Y is provided, it will immediately be absorbed in Exec pay rises.
There is a place for naïveté and I do admire those who possess it, but there does come a time when it has to be recognised for what it is.
Management also conveniently forget they paid out 50 pilots in Alan’s transformation so these were pilots and promotions that are really only replacements. I have been shocked at the medical retirements recently, besides heart issues we have, Parkinson’s and leukemia that I know of.
Money aside, pure lifestyle which I have brought up.
Sunrise = 23 duty hours each way (rounded up?) = 46 return.
Am I correct in that your bid period is 6 weeks? Not that one wants to fly max hours in a year but call it 800 hours allowing for sim and the current etc.
800 / 46 = 17 trips a year or in your 6 weeks a maximum of 3 trips.
Now is each trip is 6 days, that’s 18 days duty for 6 weeks. Would that not be enough recovery time between trips? You could become a marathon runner with the time off or an alcoholic down the local, personal choice.
Yes would also have to factor in additional sims for landing currency.
What am I missing? Yes brutal time zone changes, jet lag. However work 18 days in 6 weeks?
I have probably over simplified. Now ducking for cover.
Oh would you not fight fo say it’s sunrise flying only, no other Asia trips, etc?
Sunrise = 23 duty hours each way (rounded up?) = 46 return.
Am I correct in that your bid period is 6 weeks? Not that one wants to fly max hours in a year but call it 800 hours allowing for sim and the current etc.
800 / 46 = 17 trips a year or in your 6 weeks a maximum of 3 trips.
Now is each trip is 6 days, that’s 18 days duty for 6 weeks. Would that not be enough recovery time between trips? You could become a marathon runner with the time off or an alcoholic down the local, personal choice.
Yes would also have to factor in additional sims for landing currency.
What am I missing? Yes brutal time zone changes, jet lag. However work 18 days in 6 weeks?
I have probably over simplified. Now ducking for cover.
Oh would you not fight fo say it’s sunrise flying only, no other Asia trips, etc?
Money aside, pure lifestyle which I have brought up.
Sunrise = 23 duty hours each way (rounded up?) = 46 return.
Am I correct in that your bid period is 6 weeks? Not that one wants to fly max hours in a year but call it 800 hours allowing for sim and the current etc.
800 / 46 = 17 trips a year or in your 6 weeks a maximum of 3 trips.
Now is each trip is 6 days, that’s 18 days duty for 6 weeks. Would that not be enough recovery time between trips? You could become a marathon runner with the time off or an alcoholic down the local, personal choice.
Yes would also have to factor in additional sims for landing currency.
What am I missing? Yes brutal time zone changes, jet lag. However work 18 days in 6 weeks?
I have probably over simplified. Now ducking for cover.
Oh would you not fight fo say it’s sunrise flying only, no other Asia trips, etc?
Sunrise = 23 duty hours each way (rounded up?) = 46 return.
Am I correct in that your bid period is 6 weeks? Not that one wants to fly max hours in a year but call it 800 hours allowing for sim and the current etc.
800 / 46 = 17 trips a year or in your 6 weeks a maximum of 3 trips.
Now is each trip is 6 days, that’s 18 days duty for 6 weeks. Would that not be enough recovery time between trips? You could become a marathon runner with the time off or an alcoholic down the local, personal choice.
Yes would also have to factor in additional sims for landing currency.
What am I missing? Yes brutal time zone changes, jet lag. However work 18 days in 6 weeks?
I have probably over simplified. Now ducking for cover.
Oh would you not fight fo say it’s sunrise flying only, no other Asia trips, etc?
In no medical research study that I have read (and I have read hundreds) has having more money ever been shown to be an effective treatment. For anything.
Last edited by Australopithecus; 6th Nov 2019 at 00:23. Reason: Edit due wrong math due fatigue. From flying.
The day I get home from any Europe trip I am incapable of doing anything, even working out a TV remote can send me into fog of frustrated rage. The day after I get home (and that's assuming I do sleep which is often impossible) I start to feel normal. The third day is the first that I can sensibly start to catch up on the previous 10 days paperwork/bills etc, possibly do some exercise or things 'normal' people do as a matter of course. There is always a panic the couple of days before I leave to get everything done so no disasters occur when I am away. Anyway, that's me and everyone is different - but the feeling I have is horrible and as everyone says, it's cumulative. Two years and it still feels a doddle. Five years of that routine every time you go to work you will start to understand how those who have been doing it for 20+ will be feeling.
The day I get home from any Europe trip I am incapable of doing anything, even working out a TV remote can send me into fog of frustrated rage. The day after I get home (and that's assuming I do sleep which is often impossible) I start to feel normal. The third day is the first that I can sensibly start to catch up on the previous 10 days paperwork/bills etc, possibly do some exercise or things 'normal' people do as a matter of course. There is always a panic the couple of days before I leave to get everything done so no disasters occur when I am away. Anyway, that's me and everyone is different - but the feeling I have is horrible and as everyone says, it's cumulative. Two years and it still feels a doddle. Five years of that routine every time you go to work you will start to understand how those who have been doing it for 20+ will be feeling.
Very fair points and no I haven’t done it, only ****e 2 crew red eyes.
JFK is that not an unfair comparison as it’s was not a simple out and back, including LAX etc.
SYD/MEL - JFK - SYD/MEL being only two sectors would this not be less taxing? It is an honest and serious question. I certainly agree that the via LAX slips sound tough (have mates on the 78).
JFK is that not an unfair comparison as it’s was not a simple out and back, including LAX etc.
SYD/MEL - JFK - SYD/MEL being only two sectors would this not be less taxing? It is an honest and serious question. I certainly agree that the via LAX slips sound tough (have mates on the 78).
Money aside, pure lifestyle which I have brought up.
Sunrise = 23 duty hours each way (rounded up?) = 46 return.
Am I correct in that your bid period is 6 weeks? Not that one wants to fly max hours in a year but call it 800 hours allowing for sim and the current etc.
800 / 46 = 17 trips a year or in your 6 weeks a maximum of 3 trips.
Now is each trip is 6 days, that’s 18 days duty for 6 weeks. Would that not be enough recovery time between trips? You could become a marathon runner with the time off or an alcoholic down the local, personal choice.
Yes would also have to factor in additional sims for landing currency.
What am I missing? Yes brutal time zone changes, jet lag. However work 18 days in 6 weeks?
I have probably over simplified. Now ducking for cover.
Oh would you not fight fo say it’s sunrise flying only, no other Asia trips, etc?
Sunrise = 23 duty hours each way (rounded up?) = 46 return.
Am I correct in that your bid period is 6 weeks? Not that one wants to fly max hours in a year but call it 800 hours allowing for sim and the current etc.
800 / 46 = 17 trips a year or in your 6 weeks a maximum of 3 trips.
Now is each trip is 6 days, that’s 18 days duty for 6 weeks. Would that not be enough recovery time between trips? You could become a marathon runner with the time off or an alcoholic down the local, personal choice.
Yes would also have to factor in additional sims for landing currency.
What am I missing? Yes brutal time zone changes, jet lag. However work 18 days in 6 weeks?
I have probably over simplified. Now ducking for cover.
Oh would you not fight fo say it’s sunrise flying only, no other Asia trips, etc?
If this goes ahead standby for more.
Indeed why stop at 900 but sssshhhhh, don’t go giving them fighting ideas.
Many parts of the world are already 1000, interesting one China is/was 1000 but going back to 900? Now that’s interesting, yes drift.
Many parts of the world are already 1000, interesting one China is/was 1000 but going back to 900? Now that’s interesting, yes drift.