Project Sunrise
Thread Starter
If you had read my previous posts I am not a pilot hater, I am just pointing out the obvious. It will happen.
I have pointed out my concern to more than multiple crew ULH which is two pilot red eye, back of the clock flying. With ****e rostering from earlies to lates to red eyes. This happens around the world day in night out.
EK do ULH and look at how they log duty time..... Not right in our eyes but it happens!
So as I’ve said I do stir the pot as I play devils advocate.
It is how it is because we allow management to get away with it!
Also as I’ve said how do SQ do the Newark ULH? They were some of the pioneers back in the A340, it worked. I have also pointed out that crew that did it generally did that only. The biggest issue they had was landing recency.
Aus - reinventing the wheel... again!
As self loading freight - I am quite happy to fly for 20 hours etc, to go straight from SYD to LHR.
Just give me enough movies, some decent food and remind me to get up and walk around to avoid DVT.
Bugger a stopover or refuelling.
I want to go straight there; less hassle.
Qantas to play tough on 'Sunrise' pilots deal
The Australian, Australia by Robyn Ironside
03 Oct 2019
Business News - Page 21 - 461 words - ID 1180276356 - Photo: Yes - Type: News Item - Size: 173.00cm2
Qantas boss Alan Joyce has warned he will shelve the airline's ambitious Project Sunrise if a new agreement is not reached with pilots to operate the ultra-long-haul flights by the end of the year.
During the unveiling of the first refurbished A380 in Sydney on Wednesday, Mr Joyce said negotiations with pilots should not take months or years.
"It's not Brexit," he said. "We are hoping to have a good dialogue with them but we can't put an order in for a new aircraft unless we know the business case is going to meet the thresholds." Qantas's firm stance on such issues was why the airline was in "the great position it is today".
"We are going to have a hard nose on this," said Mr Joyce of the planned non-stop flights from Australia's east coast to cities such as New York, London and Paris. "It's a very exciting project but it is not too big to fail and if we don't have a business case we won't do it because that's what our shareholders expect." There were other projects Qantas could invest its money in, such as the booming loyalty program, Mr Joyce said. "We could invest our money quite well in that business to grow our earnings even further. We will be very disciplined on this," he said.
Asked what he was seeking from pilots, Mr Joyce said he wanted to see similar productivity gains to those agreed to when the Boeing 787s were introduced. "(Such as) how the aircraft can be operated, what are called night credits and how they're applied (and) the flexibility of moving people around aircraft," he said. "There are a lot of little items that can all add up to a significant cost to us if we don't get them bedded down before we get an agreement." The Australian and International Pilots Association has indicated it would be challenging to meet the end-of-year deadline but did not wish to comment while negotiations were continuing.
Qantas will go ahead with a series of test flights using mostly empty Boeing 787-9s, with the first, from New York to Sydney, to take place in a fortnight. Mr Joyce said he would be on board that flight, and another next month from London to Sydney.
"It's important you demonstrate you're willing to do it," he said. "It's a very big occasion in aviation and the world is going to be watching." He would not be involved in scientific experiments to test how pilots and passengers coped with the ultra-long flight.
"We've got . equipment that monitors brainwaves and the (scientists) said 'you might want to try it on the flight'," Mr Joyce said. "My PA said 'no one wants to see what's in your brain Alan
I have an early wedding present for you Mr Joyce you conned us once and you won’t con us a second time all the pilots I speak to say let it sink we couldn’t care less.
The Australian, Australia by Robyn Ironside
03 Oct 2019
Business News - Page 21 - 461 words - ID 1180276356 - Photo: Yes - Type: News Item - Size: 173.00cm2
Qantas boss Alan Joyce has warned he will shelve the airline's ambitious Project Sunrise if a new agreement is not reached with pilots to operate the ultra-long-haul flights by the end of the year.
During the unveiling of the first refurbished A380 in Sydney on Wednesday, Mr Joyce said negotiations with pilots should not take months or years.
"It's not Brexit," he said. "We are hoping to have a good dialogue with them but we can't put an order in for a new aircraft unless we know the business case is going to meet the thresholds." Qantas's firm stance on such issues was why the airline was in "the great position it is today".
"We are going to have a hard nose on this," said Mr Joyce of the planned non-stop flights from Australia's east coast to cities such as New York, London and Paris. "It's a very exciting project but it is not too big to fail and if we don't have a business case we won't do it because that's what our shareholders expect." There were other projects Qantas could invest its money in, such as the booming loyalty program, Mr Joyce said. "We could invest our money quite well in that business to grow our earnings even further. We will be very disciplined on this," he said.
Asked what he was seeking from pilots, Mr Joyce said he wanted to see similar productivity gains to those agreed to when the Boeing 787s were introduced. "(Such as) how the aircraft can be operated, what are called night credits and how they're applied (and) the flexibility of moving people around aircraft," he said. "There are a lot of little items that can all add up to a significant cost to us if we don't get them bedded down before we get an agreement." The Australian and International Pilots Association has indicated it would be challenging to meet the end-of-year deadline but did not wish to comment while negotiations were continuing.
Qantas will go ahead with a series of test flights using mostly empty Boeing 787-9s, with the first, from New York to Sydney, to take place in a fortnight. Mr Joyce said he would be on board that flight, and another next month from London to Sydney.
"It's important you demonstrate you're willing to do it," he said. "It's a very big occasion in aviation and the world is going to be watching." He would not be involved in scientific experiments to test how pilots and passengers coped with the ultra-long flight.
"We've got . equipment that monitors brainwaves and the (scientists) said 'you might want to try it on the flight'," Mr Joyce said. "My PA said 'no one wants to see what's in your brain Alan
I have an early wedding present for you Mr Joyce you conned us once and you won’t con us a second time all the pilots I speak to say let it sink we couldn’t care less.
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There were other projects Qantas could invest its money in, such as the booming loyalty program, Mr Joyce said. "We could invest our money quite well in that business to grow our earnings even further. We will be very disciplined on this," he said.
Asked what he was seeking from pilots, Mr Joyce said he wanted to see similar productivity gains to those agreed to when the Boeing 787s were introduced. "(Such as) how the aircraft can be operated, what are called night credits and how they're applied (and) the flexibility of moving people around aircraft," he said.
The CAP EX required is large and growing, but focus on picking pennies in front of steam rollers. Your competitors already have a fuel efficient fleet.
Bit hard to have a airline loyalty business without an airline. Didn't work so well when they tried to get people to use points on loaves of bread...
With your fleet operating cost orders of magnitude higher than your peers, and having wasted over AUD $2.5 billion on share buy backs, go plan your wedding..
The CAP EX required is large and growing, but focus on picking pennies in front of steam rollers. Your competitors already have a fuel efficient fleet.
With your fleet operating cost orders of magnitude higher than your peers, and having wasted over AUD $2.5 billion on share buy backs, go plan your wedding..
The CAP EX required is large and growing, but focus on picking pennies in front of steam rollers. Your competitors already have a fuel efficient fleet.
All he has done is pour petrol on the fire of hatred by pilots towards him and management. When you wake tomorrow morning in your northern beaches weekender Alan look out the window to sea and watch Sunrise sinking beneath the waves.
The pilots want to get on the front foot with this, because if they can it and blame the pilots, it will just reflect in the media badly - "Over paid, under worked pilots holding out for more money....again!" QF pilots are on a hiding to nothing over this. QF will use the test flights to trumpet it can be done, and then it's only the greedy pilots stopping it. Good luck swallowing this sh*t sandwich.
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because that's what our shareholders expect.
During the unveiling of the first refurbished A380 in Sydney on Wednesday, Mr Joyce said negotiations with pilots should not take months or years.
Take IR out of the picture if you want a decent EBA turnaround.
The dictionary definition is 'a class in a system of classification determined by size, typically in powers of ten'. A change of one order of magnitude is the equivalent of moving the decimal point one place to the left or right. N orders of magnitude = 10 raised to the power of N.
So when somebody says that something is 'orders (plural) of magnitude higher' than something else it means that something is at least one hundred times higher than something else.
I didn't land on 'at least 100 times' by happenstance.
So when somebody says that something is 'orders (plural) of magnitude higher' than something else it means that something is at least one hundred times higher than something else.
I didn't land on 'at least 100 times' by happenstance.
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The pilots want to get on the front foot with this, because if they can it and blame the pilots, it will just reflect in the media badly - "Over paid, under worked pilots holding out for more money....again!" QF pilots are on a hiding to nothing over this. QF will use the test flights to trumpet it can be done, and then it's only the greedy pilots stopping it. Good luck swallowing this sh*t sandwich.
British Airways roll out the same play book as do RyanAir et al.
What matters is the reality that pilot costs represent but a fraction of operating cost per hour.
With each unit of air frame likely costing (with a sliding AUD) circa AUD$400 million, pilot costs are irrelevant.
Although it seemed to work once before with the 787 "deal" pushed by now lead IR negotiator (formerly Stream Lead) former Union President Mr Safe, ever the one trick pony, Little Napoleon will try it again!
Had they actually run an airline, the real grind of aviation, the fleet capital would have been sourced, the order placed and the aircraft likely in operation.
It is much easier to provide column inches to the daily rags, who themselves are desperate for advertising revenue, providing commentary on social discourse.
It is also far more profitable to use surplus cash flow and cheap debt to pump the EPS that enriches insiders with share buy-backs.
What I find amusing is that the CEO implies (albeit for media headlines) that a small percentage change in Pilot productivity could determine the viability of the project.
If it is that close to the knife-edge, quite simply it should have been canned long ago.
If it is that close to the knife-edge, quite simply it should have been canned long ago.
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It's already dead, they are just looking for someone to blame. To have the LH EBA signed off, with the Sunrise a/c signed off at 787 Minus 10% rates in 3 months time isn't going to happen, no matter the Koolaiders think. Just look at the SH EBA, or Tino's outrageously arrogant email, to see where this is headed...
Mr Joyce will probably leave after the 100 Year Celebration (LOL), having been CEO for 12 years, and not ordered one new aircraft..
Mr Joyce will probably leave after the 100 Year Celebration (LOL), having been CEO for 12 years, and not ordered one new aircraft..
Rated - you cannot say pilot costs count for nothing. I certainly agree in the grand scale the % cost to the operation is certainly not what they are trying to imply to Joe Public.
Sunset on Sunrise....... nah I don’t think so. If their is an aircraft capable to do it, it will happen.
Well that’s my 2.3 cents worth!!!
Sunset on Sunrise....... nah I don’t think so. If their is an aircraft capable to do it, it will happen.
Well that’s my 2.3 cents worth!!!
If it actually plays out like that then it will probably be the biggest hospital pass in Australian Corporate history. The next CEO is going to wear a lifetime of Capex and rebuilding with basically all the assets sold off.
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Rated - you cannot say pilot costs count for nothing. I certainly agree in the grand scale the % cost to the operation is certainly not what they are trying to imply to Joe Public.
Sunset on Sunrise....... nah I don’t think so. If their is an aircraft capable to do it, it will happen.
Well that’s my 2.3 cents worth!!!
Sunset on Sunrise....... nah I don’t think so. If their is an aircraft capable to do it, it will happen.
Well that’s my 2.3 cents worth!!!