Perth - speed up - slow down
No, it won't. I mean if the automatics can't make an RTA because even by flying at green dot etc. it's not achievable, then descend or whatever is required.
But in several years of flying the 'Bus, this whole idea of not going near green dot because it's dangerous, is just plain wrong
. Sure, in turbulence, give yourself a bit more margin. But smooth air, really? 
It's just like those who want to throw a few extra knots onto the VAPP when the autothrust is doing a brilliant job of maintaining VLS+5. You already have a margin, it's called that +5kts that Airbus allows for the autothrust. Even more questionable when the landing distance check they performed just before descent shows a margin of stuff all, and they want to throw some more speed on and now make it an unknown landing distance.
Sounds typically Australian, to re-invent the wheel rather than just letting the aircraft do what the manufacturers designed it to do, with plenty of fat already built into it.
But in several years of flying the 'Bus, this whole idea of not going near green dot because it's dangerous, is just plain wrong
. Sure, in turbulence, give yourself a bit more margin. But smooth air, really? It's just like those who want to throw a few extra knots onto the VAPP when the autothrust is doing a brilliant job of maintaining VLS+5. You already have a margin, it's called that +5kts that Airbus allows for the autothrust. Even more questionable when the landing distance check they performed just before descent shows a margin of stuff all, and they want to throw some more speed on and now make it an unknown landing distance.
Sounds typically Australian, to re-invent the wheel rather than just letting the aircraft do what the manufacturers designed it to do, with plenty of fat already built into it.
Morning, sorry to say but you’re incorrect.
if you still have access to the stall charts, have a look at the compressibility effect on stall speed above 25000’ on the 320/321. Plenty of occasions where V alpha port will exceed Vls and green dot in a turn.
the AP will disconnect, and you will be hand flying at max Alpha. If you’re close to the Rec max, you’re only option will be to descend to regain energy.
or.....
you can go Green Dot + 10.
if you still have access to the stall charts, have a look at the compressibility effect on stall speed above 25000’ on the 320/321. Plenty of occasions where V alpha port will exceed Vls and green dot in a turn.
the AP will disconnect, and you will be hand flying at max Alpha. If you’re close to the Rec max, you’re only option will be to descend to regain energy.
or.....
you can go Green Dot + 10.
Doesn't anyone use an E6B any more?
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This is an interesting thread, only in Australia do we make flying difficult! Having flown in a few countries I just shake my head at the 'best practice' we Aussies have to have:-) I often had to use that thing in our skulls to work out a crossing time without any FMS with my back up plan........UNABLE!:-)
The 'Bus' I used to fly was too easy, killed a lot of basic flying skills & brain capability:-(
Off topic slightly but when I first joined the bus brigade years ago I recall going into Syd 34L on a Viz day, got to about 13miles & turned all the automatics off to have a hand drive, you should have seen the Capt sit bolt upright instantly like he had been in an electric chair & the look on his face said it all!:-)...that was the best day I could recall:-)
We are all pilots, we are meant to be adaptable:-)
The 'Bus' I used to fly was too easy, killed a lot of basic flying skills & brain capability:-(
Off topic slightly but when I first joined the bus brigade years ago I recall going into Syd 34L on a Viz day, got to about 13miles & turned all the automatics off to have a hand drive, you should have seen the Capt sit bolt upright instantly like he had been in an electric chair & the look on his face said it all!:-)...that was the best day I could recall:-)
We are all pilots, we are meant to be adaptable:-)
This is an interesting thread, only in Australia do we make flying difficult! Having flown in a few countries I just shake my head at the 'best practice' we Aussies have to have:-) I often had to use that thing in our skulls to work out a crossing time without any FMS with my back up plan........UNABLE!:-)
The 'Bus' I used to fly was too easy, killed a lot of basic flying skills & brain capability:-(
Off topic slightly but when I first joined the bus brigade years ago I recall going into Syd 34L on a Viz day, got to about 13miles & turned all the automatics off to have a hand drive, you should have seen the Capt sit bolt upright instantly like he had been in an electric chair & the look on his face said it all!:-)...that was the best day I could recall:-)
We are all pilots, we are meant to be adaptable:-)
The 'Bus' I used to fly was too easy, killed a lot of basic flying skills & brain capability:-(
Off topic slightly but when I first joined the bus brigade years ago I recall going into Syd 34L on a Viz day, got to about 13miles & turned all the automatics off to have a hand drive, you should have seen the Capt sit bolt upright instantly like he had been in an electric chair & the look on his face said it all!:-)...that was the best day I could recall:-)
We are all pilots, we are meant to be adaptable:-)
Very impressive though
you should have seen the Capt sit bolt upright instantly like he had been in an electric chair
Match the altitude!
A bit left-field, but if you're on an Airbus with the capability, load a time marker with the desired time and start descent when the FMS tells you to.
On the Flt Plan page of the FMS, keep an eye on the altitude at the time marker and the altitude at the required position. Adjust the speed as required to match the altitudes and, voila, you'll be there within a second or two. Assuming you're on descent, if you're higher at the time marker you'll be late at the position and vice versa. (It also assumes you have some brain space left at the end of a long sector!)
I'm sure not all aircraft have this capability, but if yours does, try it.
On the Flt Plan page of the FMS, keep an eye on the altitude at the time marker and the altitude at the required position. Adjust the speed as required to match the altitudes and, voila, you'll be there within a second or two. Assuming you're on descent, if you're higher at the time marker you'll be late at the position and vice versa. (It also assumes you have some brain space left at the end of a long sector!)
I'm sure not all aircraft have this capability, but if yours does, try it.
Originally Posted by Joe
I just think the system could be better than watching a whole bunch of aircraft fly at high (planned) fuel flows/speeds across the country, and then be slowed to min speed approaching a waypoint, instead of sequencing the whole process earlier in the piece.
As for blaming a system for my inadequacies, I don’t really think I did that either - can you re-read my post and perhaps clarify where I got you all hot and bothered?
Originally Posted by Neville Nobody
Because its an issue when you're 5000' high on profile because old mate in front can't get it sorted out.
Morning, sorry to say but you’re incorrect.
if you still have access to the stall charts, have a look at the compressibility effect on stall speed above 25000’ on the 320/321. Plenty of occasions where V alpha port will exceed Vls and green dot in a turn.
the AP will disconnect, and you will be hand flying at max Alpha. If you’re close to the Rec max, you’re only option will be to descend to regain energy.
or.....
you can go Green Dot + 10.
if you still have access to the stall charts, have a look at the compressibility effect on stall speed above 25000’ on the 320/321. Plenty of occasions where V alpha port will exceed Vls and green dot in a turn.
the AP will disconnect, and you will be hand flying at max Alpha. If you’re close to the Rec max, you’re only option will be to descend to regain energy.
or.....
you can go Green Dot + 10.
This attitude really worries me. He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.
I’ve got no problem being at green dot down low in a hold I’ll chuck a margin on for the turns if I’m heavy. Preferably though I’d be descending at green dot on the hold. Not flying circles in Alt.
Up high even in smooth air. No. You’re asking for trouble in a 320/321.
In a 330/380/350. No problem. Big wing. Big margins.
Last edited by Blueskymine; 5th Aug 2019 at 04:27.
Nev, could you explain why you'd end up 5000ft high because of the A/C in front [going too slow?]?
It appears that the F100 flies slow in the cruise but then accelerates the descent to meet their time. Obviously if they are late on their time the more an issue it is for the following aircraft. I have had it a few times now, so it wasn't just a one off event where someone got their time wrong.
Nev, could you explain why you'd end up 5000ft high because of the A/C in front [going too slow?]?
We used to manage ok in the Britishly Awesome 146. No winds in the box, no time markers, no VNAV, no seconds or decimal minutes on the FMS, no help. It was simple enough provided you understood that the FMS time did not round up at all, if your fix time was 1205 and the box said 1205 then you'd be overhead sometime between 1205:00 and 1205:59, i.e., you were going to be late. If the box said 1204 then you would be there between 1204:00 and 1204:59, half a chance you'd be there within the 30 seconds early buffer. A quick bit of maths to work out an average ground speed and then adjust indicated to achieve it. Unfortunately our only answer to "what's your planned indicated on descent?" from ATC was "haven't got a clue, just suck it and see!" I would err towards being early rather than late because it was easy for the bird to lose more time if asked but very difficult to make up any time.
Originally Posted by Nev
F100 is 2 minutes in front of us on feeder time, but blocking our descent clearance. We can't do anything as any change in speed will mess our feeder time. So we are left high and dry waiting for the F100 to start descending and accelerate away.
It appears that the F100 flies slow in the cruise but then accelerates the descent to meet their time.
It appears that the F100 flies slow in the cruise but then accelerates the descent to meet their time.
You could just demand a descent from ATC. That'll scare the f@kkers.
Originally Posted by Scat
I would err towards being early rather than late because it was easy for the bird to lose more time if asked but very difficult to make up any time.
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The whole Oz ATC setup is decidedly third world masquerading as first world. In a country as vast as it is, with even vaster oceanic airspace....who in their infantile brain thought that trying to sequence traffic once it was within 35 min flying time of destination..was a sensible idea?
I know who....a person or organisation with no clue as to how aircraft are flown or operated...that’s who....or better yet an organisation or person who wants to reimagine aviation their way...
I know who....a person or organisation with no clue as to how aircraft are flown or operated...that’s who....or better yet an organisation or person who wants to reimagine aviation their way...
who in their infantile brain thought that trying to sequence traffic once it was within 35 min flying time of destination..was a sensible idea?
Wow, this is really being over complicated. Get an RTA, put the time marker in, slow to a speed that you are comfortable with (I personally will go to Green dot +10kts), enter that as a descent speed and if you can't make the RTA then 'JQXXX, unable to comply with RTA, request vectors/hold'. I am not going to spend my time trying to work out complicated equations to try and finesse an RTA that a good amount of the time is just unrealistic or puts the aircraft close to an undesirable state. Why bust your balls stressing to make an RTA, throw it back to ATC, if they want to give me an 8-10 minute delay and 100 nm to try and achieve it then they can take some responsibility for it.
Yep there is nothing wrong with telling ATC unable.
It amazes me the amount of guys that jump to speed/ speed brakes, etc on the very first breath from ATC.
Wait, comprehend, have a look, if it can be done great, if not say so.
It amazes me the amount of guys that jump to speed/ speed brakes, etc on the very first breath from ATC.
Wait, comprehend, have a look, if it can be done great, if not say so.