Ozzies can’t fly when it’s windy?
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Hey, come on guys this is Australia. You should be used to it by now.
If you want a real chuckle ask for the Flow Controllers phone number ( they will give it to you if you say it is either that or an ASIR) and find out how they really make decisions. On the other hand you might not want to because its very, very sad.
And they really, really do think they are worlds best practice!
And its never, ever going to get any better.
Pathetic.
If you want a real chuckle ask for the Flow Controllers phone number ( they will give it to you if you say it is either that or an ASIR) and find out how they really make decisions. On the other hand you might not want to because its very, very sad.
And they really, really do think they are worlds best practice!
And its never, ever going to get any better.
Pathetic.
10.3.1 Selection of Runway in Use
10.3.1.1 Use of other than nominated runways. Controllers must not nominate a particular runway for use if an alternative runway is available, when:
(a) for runway conditions that are completely dry:
(i) the cross-wind component, including gusts, exceeds 20 KT;
(ii) the downwind component, including gusts, exceeds 5 KT.
(b) for runway conditions that are not completely dry;
(i) the cross-wind component, including gusts, exceeds 20 KT;
(ii) there is a downwind component.
If you wish to operate to higher crosswind criteria then lobby CASA to get the rules changed.
The other issue that needs to be considered is the safe management of traffic. If you run higher acceptance rates then you end landing up to say 45 per hour for several hours on 34// and then say 75 aircraft of these aircraft become departures and the achieved rate on a single departure runway is about 25 (or less if there is a significant number of aircraft that "require" 34L for departure). Do the maths on that, and then add another 20-25 arrivals per hour into the mix.
Build RWY 25L, fill in the northern part of the moat, that is, south of TWY Lima.
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Missy , you’ve hit the nail on the head but for all the wrong reasons. In Australia ATC rules can cost operators millions, trash the travel plans of tens of thousands of customers and drive operating crew slowly mad and the response is a shrug of the shoulders. And no sense of irony or absurdity. I’m glad I’m at the tail end of my career. Lord only knows how the systems going to look in 20 years time.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Missy , you’ve hit the nail on the head but for all the wrong reasons. In Australia ATC rules can cost operators millions, trash the travel plans of tens of thousands of customers and drive operating crew slowly mad and the response is a shrug of the shoulders. And no sense of irony or absurdity. I’m glad I’m at the tail end of my career. Lord only knows how the systems going to look in 20 years time.
NZ isn't really even close. There was a 288 minute COBT delay yesterday for some guys into YSSY and you would still then receive airborne delays. YMML average delay would be 5 minutes weekdays and with one RWY you'd be happy with only a 10min delay, taking off from YMLT and getting a 30 minute delay isn't abnormal. NZ pilots jump up and down if they're slowed down by a minute or two.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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I was flying for long gone Ansett way back(it is actually nearly 19 years, my god, time flies), still remember some of the weird rules they had down under(hated the rules, loved the country). To much influence from their "parents", the brits I must clearly say. Not good, but hey, thats what they know.
Aviation got overregulated over the past(nearly) 2 decades, it did not became better(of course my opinion, as always, but that is what I see in direct comparison). Long time that I am back to Europe and as well here some aviation authorities just do not get it right - take some Italian airports as an example(other nations are not much better, but not to make this post to long lets go with (in)famous ENAC and some of it''s multiple stupid decissions) - there is for instance Treviso(LIPH) that can only accept a maximum of 15 kts x-wind(single runway outfit with usual landing on ILS07 and take off 25. No hills, mountains that affect the runway really. It is just like this. Are italian pilots generally bad? Nope. But their authority is not one of the most effective ones(let's take it like this to say it in a nice way). Treviso is not the only airport that has not so clever rules like that.
We could go on with airports in France, their attitude towards the #1 aviation language, ENGLISH, plus some other rules, UK, SPAIN....
Over the years I learned just to take a deep breath when they come up with something "new" to make my life easy and SAFE(the new magic word that makes everything right), usually it just causes delay. Good for a controller, he goes home anyway. Not so good for us pilots, we are stuck where we usually are, in the flightdeck till time runs out and it becomes game over. Normally they alway manage it that we just make it in time, still, the days become long due to "effective" rules. Just take this "sticking with filed flightlevel" bs that they are pulling here in Europe now. Like that makes any sense in a summer full of bad thunderstorms and the NEED for an effective ATC instead of one that is pulling out (idiotic) rules out of their hat. But that is "modern" aviation nowadays.
To make you fell better - it will just go worse. Overregulation tends to have that effect.
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NZ isn't really even close. There was a 288 minute COBT delay yesterday for some guys into YSSY and you would still then receive airborne delays. YMML average delay would be 5 minutes weekdays and with one RWY you'd be happy with only a 10min delay, taking off from YMLT and getting a 30 minute delay isn't abnormal. NZ pilots jump up and down if they're slowed down by a minute or two.
Missy , you’ve hit the nail on the head but for all the wrong reasons. In Australia ATC rules can cost operators millions, trash the travel plans of tens of thousands of customers and drive operating crew slowly mad and the response is a shrug of the shoulders. And no sense of irony or absurdity. I’m glad I’m at the tail end of my career. Lord only knows how the systems going to look in 20 years time.
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How about : mandating single runway ops at Sydney when the parallel runways are within the crosswind limits of pretty well every Airline aircraft in Australia?
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Sunny, see GreenGhost39’s post.
The rule that causes the grief at Sydney is the forecast maximum crosswind on 16/34. ATC goes to single runway ops. when the crosswind is nowhere near aircraft operating limits. In Melbourne a 21 knot southerly with a 6 knot tailwind on 27 will mean 45 minutes COBT delay plus airborne holding for a CBR-MEL flight. Given the magnitude of the mayhem these rules cause on a routine basis isn’t it possible that the rules are a horses ar#e? Maybe its just me.
The rule that causes the grief at Sydney is the forecast maximum crosswind on 16/34. ATC goes to single runway ops. when the crosswind is nowhere near aircraft operating limits. In Melbourne a 21 knot southerly with a 6 knot tailwind on 27 will mean 45 minutes COBT delay plus airborne holding for a CBR-MEL flight. Given the magnitude of the mayhem these rules cause on a routine basis isn’t it possible that the rules are a horses ar#e? Maybe its just me.
I wonder what the airlines would prefer - having their flight depart on time and possibly get 90-120 minutes of airborne holding with the possibility of a diversion, or a 3 hour COBT delay still with 30 plus minutes airborne holding.
The two hours of airborne holding would result in less of a delay to that aircraft for the airline, but obviously at the cost of several Tonnes of fuel and the increased risk of a diversion.
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Colonel, the fact that you can quote numbers like that without the slightest hint of irony says it all. Is there anywhere else on the planet where this could be considered normal? Or is it really the massive snafu it appears to be?
Sunny, see GreenGhost39’s post.
The rule that causes the grief at Sydney is the forecast maximum crosswind on 16/34. ATC goes to single runway ops. when the crosswind is nowhere near aircraft operating limits. In Melbourne a 21 knot southerly with a 6 knot tailwind on 27 will mean 45 minutes COBT delay plus airborne holding for a CBR-MEL flight. Given the magnitude of the mayhem these rules cause on a routine basis isn’t it possible that the rules are a horses ar#e? Maybe its just me.
The rule that causes the grief at Sydney is the forecast maximum crosswind on 16/34. ATC goes to single runway ops. when the crosswind is nowhere near aircraft operating limits. In Melbourne a 21 knot southerly with a 6 knot tailwind on 27 will mean 45 minutes COBT delay plus airborne holding for a CBR-MEL flight. Given the magnitude of the mayhem these rules cause on a routine basis isn’t it possible that the rules are a horses ar#e? Maybe its just me.
One thing that has changed in the last 20-25 years is the increased use of wind analysers that accurately display the instantaneous, mean (2 minute average) and peak winds. Wind back 20 years, single anemometer and wind socks, there is a LOT more data available to the TWR ATCs. Perhaps there needs to be more education around the wording "including gusts" and how this relates to the instantaneous, mean and peak winds, which winds are used for which purpose.
For information, the RWY 34L anemometer is owned (and maintained) by the BoM and is the one recorded on the METAR and SPECI. There will often be major differences between this wind and the ATIS wind (for obvious reasons).
Also, COBT doesn't mean no holding, it should mean significantly less holding than a "free for all", the current rules around COBT do need changing and ACDM should result in better outcomes. Recent feedback provided by Industry to Airservices has resulted in an adjustment to have more aircraft airborne to "keep pressure on the system" to maximise throughput but always having aircraft in the pipeline.
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Sunny, is there any chance that anybody in ATC is ever going to admit that the system is broken? It’s blindingly obvious to everybody at the operational level and to anybody who travels regularly up and down the east coast. It’s broken. It doesn’t work. It fails in its primary mission of moving people from point A to B. It is at its absolute limit now and unless something radical is done soon its all downhill from here.
Sunny, is there any chance that anybody in ATC is ever going to admit that the system is broken? It’s blindingly obvious to everybody at the operational level and to anybody who travels regularly up and down the east coast. It’s broken. It doesn’t work. It fails in its primary mission of moving people from point A to B. It is at its absolute limit now and unless something radical is done soon its all downhill from here.
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So yes, it is a massive snafu & an embarassment to those of us who ply the aviation trade outside Australia.
And for a further update...
ATIS at 18:00 Sunday night has the wind as 250/10 and still only using one Runway.
The first NOTAM for YSSY says that aircraft can expect airborne holding of 40-60 minutes.
Something is significantly broken with the way things are done in this country....
ATIS at 18:00 Sunday night has the wind as 250/10 and still only using one Runway.
The first NOTAM for YSSY says that aircraft can expect airborne holding of 40-60 minutes.
Something is significantly broken with the way things are done in this country....
