Timely Go-Arounds
Gender Faculty Specialist
So you've gone around. Now you've got less than minimum diversion fuel and the FO does the same thing again....?
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OK maybe part of the crux of the matter, talking two different scenarios.
Your at a safe height in clear conditions, the PM in an excited state puts the cart before the horse and simply states "go around".
No prior qualifying statement, no prior talking, simply "go around".
It would appear most subscribe to the thought that you will blindly just do it without understanding why.
That doesn't seem sensible.
Seems to be the proposition from DuS: any height, any time, any conditions if the phrase "go around" is uttered whether in anger or error then you just leap into action and do it.
Sheep and communists are applauding the initiative!
Your at a safe height in clear conditions, the PM in an excited state puts the cart before the horse and simply states "go around".
No prior qualifying statement, no prior talking, simply "go around".
It would appear most subscribe to the thought that you will blindly just do it without understanding why.
That doesn't seem sensible.
Seems to be the proposition from DuS: any height, any time, any conditions if the phrase "go around" is uttered whether in anger or error then you just leap into action and do it.
Sheep and communists are applauding the initiative!
So you've gone around. Now you've got less than minimum diversion fuel and the FO does the same thing again....?
It amazes me how many people continue to argue this. It’s not the 1950s. I’m amazed that in 2019 CRM dinosaurs continue to exist. I guess if nothing else it reinforces why we have to do the annual CRM course in the first place.
Gender Faculty Specialist
On the contrary he will have been briefed but, like the autobrake example above, he decides he doesn't like what he sees yet again.
What are you going to do this time?
What are you going to do this time?
I wonder How many of these 4 Star Egos would ask ATC why they have been told to go around if no reason was given? Would they ask for experience level on Tower duties? Ask to speak to a more senior controller before executing the manoeuvre? Same goes for the senior check called out to operate in the right hand seat because all the fo’s keep going sick on “The Legend Cpt”. Gonna question his/her Go around Call. Thankfully whenever this type of D!ck measuring has gone on with my Mob. Cpt Ego is given some Re-Neducation 👍
Yeah this thread is mildly disturbing.
If you go around it’s not a black mark on your record.
if you go around the money it costs doesn’t even register in the scheme of things.
If you go around the schedule disruption is not even a blip on the airlines radar.
If you go around it doesn’t make you less of a fantastic pilot.
It may however prevent you from making the biggest mistake of your life.
Any one of us posting here can misinterpret a situation, any one of us here can have a moment of subtle/partial incapacitation ( and be unaware of it).
There are lots of questionable trends in modern aviation training but the ability of any flight deck member being able to call a go around is not one of them.
The people here who are not aligned with the majority should probably have a quiet think about what is driving them, is it a desire for increased flight safety? Or is it ego?
If you go around it’s not a black mark on your record.
if you go around the money it costs doesn’t even register in the scheme of things.
If you go around the schedule disruption is not even a blip on the airlines radar.
If you go around it doesn’t make you less of a fantastic pilot.
It may however prevent you from making the biggest mistake of your life.
Any one of us posting here can misinterpret a situation, any one of us here can have a moment of subtle/partial incapacitation ( and be unaware of it).
There are lots of questionable trends in modern aviation training but the ability of any flight deck member being able to call a go around is not one of them.
The people here who are not aligned with the majority should probably have a quiet think about what is driving them, is it a desire for increased flight safety? Or is it ego?
This thread is doing my head in.
It's not a proposition from me. Its a OM requirement for effectively every airline in the developed world.
I'll ignore the needless jibe and ask you this, what is the line then? At what point do we have a discussion after the command is given, and at what point do we just emulate your precious soviet sheep and comply? If your answer is 'Captains discretion", I put it to you that every Captain who drove an aircraft into the ground despite his FO's pleas believed that his discretion was more accurate than whatever the FO saw on the day.
I'll ignore the needless jibe and ask you this, what is the line then? At what point do we have a discussion after the command is given, and at what point do we just emulate your precious soviet sheep and comply? If your answer is 'Captains discretion", I put it to you that every Captain who drove an aircraft into the ground despite his FO's pleas believed that his discretion was more accurate than whatever the FO saw on the day.
[QUOTE=das Uber Soldat;10518997]This thread is doing my head in.
If your answer is 'Captains discretion", I put it to you that every Captain who drove an aircraft into the ground despite his FO's pleas believed that his discretion was more accurate than whatever the FO saw on the day.[/QUOTE
Yeah, me too-and I’ve got a pretty big head.
The crux of the matter is that perceptions are very fallible. Even a shiny gold PIC stripe doesn’t improve your reliability on that score. All of life’s problems in fact begin with a faulty or incomplete model and deteriorate from there.
I have had the good fortune to operate in a crew environment with pilots both plain and fancy for a long time. Every time I go to work I’m confident that we all have the same goal and same serious focus on performing to a high standard. I rely on my other crew members as they do on me. If one of us is unhappy then it gets fixed in a timely fashion. Close to the ground then it’s TOGA first, questions later. It says so right here in my 1984 copy of “So you've got a fourth stripe!”
It
If your answer is 'Captains discretion", I put it to you that every Captain who drove an aircraft into the ground despite his FO's pleas believed that his discretion was more accurate than whatever the FO saw on the day.[/QUOTE
Yeah, me too-and I’ve got a pretty big head.
The crux of the matter is that perceptions are very fallible. Even a shiny gold PIC stripe doesn’t improve your reliability on that score. All of life’s problems in fact begin with a faulty or incomplete model and deteriorate from there.
I have had the good fortune to operate in a crew environment with pilots both plain and fancy for a long time. Every time I go to work I’m confident that we all have the same goal and same serious focus on performing to a high standard. I rely on my other crew members as they do on me. If one of us is unhappy then it gets fixed in a timely fashion. Close to the ground then it’s TOGA first, questions later. It says so right here in my 1984 copy of “So you've got a fourth stripe!”
It
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I just don't think an automatic kneejerk reaction is required at 1500' in visual conditions whereas no disagreement at - maybe to pick a figure - 500' or below.
Apparently the majority think otherwise; just don't get it.
What should the criteria be? Well as professionals I'd like to think we could discuss and improve the understanding and paramaters, maybe not.
And you pointedly ignore my question about how to REQUIRE F/O's to take over when the aircraft is out of the slot, calls have been ignored and it appears the Captains intention to try and land hot and/or high.
Sort out THAT and the accidents like Yoyogi (?) and AIExpress10 years ago in Mangalore will be banished and hundreds of lives saved. Apparently not worth addressing.
But hey - 1500' in clear conditions the 2IC says "go around" and off you go, you don't think that can be improved?
And nice touch - you ask a question, pre-empt any answer...then criticise ME for YOUR answer to YOUR question.
Auditioning for a spot on Q&A (ABC TV allegedly balanced discussion program for non Aussies) per chance?
Cheers.
Apparently the majority think otherwise; just don't get it.
What should the criteria be? Well as professionals I'd like to think we could discuss and improve the understanding and paramaters, maybe not.
And you pointedly ignore my question about how to REQUIRE F/O's to take over when the aircraft is out of the slot, calls have been ignored and it appears the Captains intention to try and land hot and/or high.
Sort out THAT and the accidents like Yoyogi (?) and AIExpress10 years ago in Mangalore will be banished and hundreds of lives saved. Apparently not worth addressing.
But hey - 1500' in clear conditions the 2IC says "go around" and off you go, you don't think that can be improved?
And nice touch - you ask a question, pre-empt any answer...then criticise ME for YOUR answer to YOUR question.
Auditioning for a spot on Q&A (ABC TV allegedly balanced discussion program for non Aussies) per chance?
Cheers.
Last edited by galdian; 15th Jul 2019 at 12:49. Reason: a witty observation (to some).
And you pointedly ignore my question about how to REQUIRE F/O's to take over when the aircraft is out of the slot, calls have been ignored and it appears the Captains intention to try and land hot and/or high.
Sort out THAT and the accidents like Yoyogi (?) and AIExpress10 years ago in Mangalore will be banished and hundreds of lives saved. Apparently not worth addressing.
I’m also wondering, are the FOs a couple of you blokes seem to be flying with really that badly trained and/or bereft of ability? Is it a serious concern that they’ll be telling you to go round at 1500’ in VMC for no valid reason whatsoever?
The thread is certainly evolving...
If your sitting in an airline where you have generally an experienced cockpit crew (ie QF) it could be different to where you have an experienced Capt or in fact a new Capt and experienced FO. It is never black and white (or PC neutral). As has been mentioned above stable criteria really? GA immediately? Hmm don’t think so, below stable criteria different for sure, however every factor needs to come into play. At or below the minima different again, I’d rather be in the GA realising it was not the right call than being called to tea and bikkies or worse popping the emergency slides or worse! IT IS OK TO GA!
Its a right bowl of worms. I mentioned earlier in a diff moon phase I had the unenviable task of calling a GA, this was after following company procedures (as we had height on our side), Capt insisted on pushing on, it was not pretty but it was ‘stable’. It got to the point where I had decided if he doesn’t GA this time I have no choice but to take over (no FO wants to take over), Capt at the last affirmative CAPT U MUST GA, went around, although not positively and even for a spilt second started to bring back from TOGA (again on the cusp of take over). GA completed and all of a sudden (not really all of a sudden) at bingo fuel... have to land. Capt asked for suggestions (was fairly new to type, whereas I had a few thou in the bank), my suggestion was this time let’s fly it to manufactures advice and not what your used to flying. Second approach not pretty but stable in all the boxes. Landed....... the rest...
My point is it is not black and white to a degree. Then throw in diff cultures which shouldn’t make a diff but do. It’s even harder for FO’s in places, as reference to the YOG crash.
No one sets out to crash (unless suicide), when it’s going pear shaped it not only takes a good FO to speak up but it takes a CAPT to realise and take action, otherwise...
Most airlines are now just culture, a GA is actually a positive not a negative and has been for years.
Hmmmm was I rambling? Probably, the Johnny is good!
If your sitting in an airline where you have generally an experienced cockpit crew (ie QF) it could be different to where you have an experienced Capt or in fact a new Capt and experienced FO. It is never black and white (or PC neutral). As has been mentioned above stable criteria really? GA immediately? Hmm don’t think so, below stable criteria different for sure, however every factor needs to come into play. At or below the minima different again, I’d rather be in the GA realising it was not the right call than being called to tea and bikkies or worse popping the emergency slides or worse! IT IS OK TO GA!
Its a right bowl of worms. I mentioned earlier in a diff moon phase I had the unenviable task of calling a GA, this was after following company procedures (as we had height on our side), Capt insisted on pushing on, it was not pretty but it was ‘stable’. It got to the point where I had decided if he doesn’t GA this time I have no choice but to take over (no FO wants to take over), Capt at the last affirmative CAPT U MUST GA, went around, although not positively and even for a spilt second started to bring back from TOGA (again on the cusp of take over). GA completed and all of a sudden (not really all of a sudden) at bingo fuel... have to land. Capt asked for suggestions (was fairly new to type, whereas I had a few thou in the bank), my suggestion was this time let’s fly it to manufactures advice and not what your used to flying. Second approach not pretty but stable in all the boxes. Landed....... the rest...
My point is it is not black and white to a degree. Then throw in diff cultures which shouldn’t make a diff but do. It’s even harder for FO’s in places, as reference to the YOG crash.
No one sets out to crash (unless suicide), when it’s going pear shaped it not only takes a good FO to speak up but it takes a CAPT to realise and take action, otherwise...
Most airlines are now just culture, a GA is actually a positive not a negative and has been for years.
Hmmmm was I rambling? Probably, the Johnny is good!
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The point is that culturally just because it's in the book that they SHOULD take over many will be incredibly reluctant TO take over.
If you have flown in Asia you will understand the age/cultural gradient can be very real, if you haven't you won't quite get it or want to believe that it exists to the extent it does.
It does, so how to fix it?? I was simply using extreme punitive measures to make the point that having it written in the ops man is NOT fixing the problem of F/O's having the guts to take over and "save" the aircraft. And planes crash, people die.
But it's written in the book...that's OK then.
And the devils advocate to a degree regards an unexpected "go around" call at 1500' in clear conditions, are you going to kneejerk?? YES or NO please.
Cheers
If you have flown in Asia you will understand the age/cultural gradient can be very real, if you haven't you won't quite get it or want to believe that it exists to the extent it does.
It does, so how to fix it?? I was simply using extreme punitive measures to make the point that having it written in the ops man is NOT fixing the problem of F/O's having the guts to take over and "save" the aircraft. And planes crash, people die.
But it's written in the book...that's OK then.
And the devils advocate to a degree regards an unexpected "go around" call at 1500' in clear conditions, are you going to kneejerk?? YES or NO please.
Cheers
I won’t ‘kneejerk’ (nice try with the loaded language), but yes, I will go around. Because in around 35 years of aviation, I’ve never once encountered a go-round call without a very good reason. Because I have reason to trust the ability and judgement of my fellow crew members. And because even though we’re in clear conditions at 1500’, maybe there’s a flock of geese or another aircraft or something else that I haven’t seen and they have. So I’ll happily go round and we’ll talk about why later on.
That do you?
Go around 1500 ft
Had that once on my annual route check because the italian dc8 crew didn't adhere to speed request..probably didn't understand as new atc trial...BUT at max landing weight, and hot with a young inexperienced SO following the fookish criteria of yanking the stick back at the same time as opening the taps..slow acceleration and back side of the drag curve...had us dangling close to the shaker..so dropped the nose before retracting the under carriage..horn problems with land flap. Live and learn.
Story about a chief with the then new fingy of girls in the cockpit who called for a go around a few times due to hard warnings...tape taken home.
some times I can't believe that I survived...
Story about a chief with the then new fingy of girls in the cockpit who called for a go around a few times due to hard warnings...tape taken home.
some times I can't believe that I survived...
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In the airline I used to work for a new FO wanted a skipper to GA because there were multiple helicopters approaching from either side of the main. This was completely normal at this airport but the FO had never seen it and thought there was going to be a collision ( aircraft at about 5 miles )
Skipper explained calmly that if we go around every time a helicopter approached the crossing runway, they would never land. It’s a good example of a new experience being managed, they didn’t go around, they had time to talk.
landing once as a new FO at minimums I couldn’t see anything ( quite maxed out with it all as PM ) I was shocked to hear the captain say continue, he had the lights but they were about 30 degrees off to his side, I literally couldn’t see them as I was looking in the wrong place. Most low vis training in cat 2 stuff it’s calm and fog, this was 40kt fog and the runway wasn’t where I thought it should be!
I was about to say go around but I trusted him, smashing guy, and we got in safely and legally, but no one else did for about 2 hours we just got lucky.
Its all part of what makes you who you are when you get your command which is why I’m so surprised to hear these outdated and dangerous views!
Sometimes there is time for a chat, and others there isn’t.
Skipper explained calmly that if we go around every time a helicopter approached the crossing runway, they would never land. It’s a good example of a new experience being managed, they didn’t go around, they had time to talk.
landing once as a new FO at minimums I couldn’t see anything ( quite maxed out with it all as PM ) I was shocked to hear the captain say continue, he had the lights but they were about 30 degrees off to his side, I literally couldn’t see them as I was looking in the wrong place. Most low vis training in cat 2 stuff it’s calm and fog, this was 40kt fog and the runway wasn’t where I thought it should be!
I was about to say go around but I trusted him, smashing guy, and we got in safely and legally, but no one else did for about 2 hours we just got lucky.
Its all part of what makes you who you are when you get your command which is why I’m so surprised to hear these outdated and dangerous views!
Sometimes there is time for a chat, and others there isn’t.
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Why would it be so hard for the patter to be "flock of geese, go around" or "aircraft below aproaching, go around"??
If the intent of CRM is that BOTH crew members are aware of situations so understand and work co-operatively - why would you abandon that and kneejerk a reaction at 1500' on the perception of one crew member only without some explanation??
Do you believe in CRM - or not??
Seems a tad contradictory.
Please remember I am only highlighting a situation where most appear to say they'll react to the call at ANY altitude, I suspect ops man's probably state "on final approach" or similar which can be anywhere below 6,000' on some ILS's, in some countries, the question of whether you're in IMC or using the ILS as tracking in visual conditions probably irrelevant to the wording in the ops manual regards a "go around" call.
Don't see a problem with the "kneejerk" comment as accurately describes how you have stated you'll react in ALL circumstances.
I just think kneejerking is counter productive when you have enough time/altitude to ask "why?" if no explanation was provided, just a "go around" statement.
Believe the paramaters and criteria could be far better defined than at present which seems to upset some.
Cheers.
If the intent of CRM is that BOTH crew members are aware of situations so understand and work co-operatively - why would you abandon that and kneejerk a reaction at 1500' on the perception of one crew member only without some explanation??
Do you believe in CRM - or not??
Seems a tad contradictory.
Please remember I am only highlighting a situation where most appear to say they'll react to the call at ANY altitude, I suspect ops man's probably state "on final approach" or similar which can be anywhere below 6,000' on some ILS's, in some countries, the question of whether you're in IMC or using the ILS as tracking in visual conditions probably irrelevant to the wording in the ops manual regards a "go around" call.
Don't see a problem with the "kneejerk" comment as accurately describes how you have stated you'll react in ALL circumstances.
I just think kneejerking is counter productive when you have enough time/altitude to ask "why?" if no explanation was provided, just a "go around" statement.
Believe the paramaters and criteria could be far better defined than at present which seems to upset some.
Cheers.
FO - "Go around"
CPT - "Why?"
FO - "Reason X"
CPT - "I disagree, we're continuing"
What happens if the FO still isn't happy? Do they say Go Around again? Do we have another discussion? Practically speaking no FO is going to call Go Around (without an earlier support call) unless they believe (rightly or wrongly) a clear and present safety danger exists. Now they're bound by their OM to escalate their concern, if necessary to the point of taking over.
So now, we've gone from an extremely simple decision and defensive procedure, into having a debate at 500ft, a further disagreement then escalation of the RAISE model to the point that the FO has to take control over the Captain, with all the problems related. Immediately reportable matter, crew stood down, tea and biscuits for all involved.
And this is an improvement?
Originally Posted by galdian
What should the criteria be? Well as professionals I'd like to think we could discuss and improve the understanding and paramaters, maybe not.
Originally Posted by galdian
And you pointedly ignore my question about how to REQUIRE F/O's to take over when the aircraft is out of the slot, calls have been ignored and it appears the Captains intention to try and land hot and/or high.
Sort out THAT and the accidents like Yoyogi (?) and AIExpress10 years ago in Mangalore will be banished and hundreds of lives saved. Apparently not worth addressing.
Sort out THAT and the accidents like Yoyogi (?) and AIExpress10 years ago in Mangalore will be banished and hundreds of lives saved. Apparently not worth addressing.
Originally Posted by galdian
But hey - 1500' in clear conditions the 2IC says "go around" and off you go, you don't think that can be improved?
Originally Posted by galdian
And nice touch - you ask a question, pre-empt any answer...then criticise ME for YOUR answer to YOUR question.
Auditioning for a spot on Q&A (ABC TV allegedly balanced discussion program for non Aussies) per chance?
Auditioning for a spot on Q&A (ABC TV allegedly balanced discussion program for non Aussies) per chance?
It simply boggles the mind these 1950's CRM ideas (or lack thereof) still persist.
Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 15th Jul 2019 at 16:35.
Gender Faculty Specialist
That you don't understand isn't an argument. I get the feeling the whole point of you trying to create a discussion at some arbitrary threshold that you've set is to create an opportunity for a Cpt to refuse a Go Around command.
FO - "Go around"
CPT - "Why?"
FO - "Reason X"
CPT - "I disagree, we're continuing"
What happens if the FO still isn't happy?
FO - "Go around"
CPT - "Why?"
FO - "Reason X"
CPT - "I disagree, we're continuing"
What happens if the FO still isn't happy?
Perhaps HE can bring it up on the ground afterwards. Swings both ways you know.
If “Bringing it up On the Grounds Afterward” is no longer an option, Perhaps at the Court of inquiry, or after he gets out of hospital, perhaps his wife can ask you after the funeral? Reason required? Yes! At the time, 220’ sorry no time, at 1500’? Maybe? A Myriad of possibilities hence why you won’t find a Policy in any manual. The expectation is you go around and sort it out above the MSA. Running out of fuel Now? Really? after 1 missed approach? You have options, they may require telling someone you are low on gas but no one turns up normal ops with 1 go and then has to put it on a Highway “Get your hand off it Darryl”
