Jetstar EBA 2019

[Popgun]

my question still is, what industrial action do JQ pilots want to take that they think will be effective in getting management to change their mind about the log of claims?

I suggest you go and read the document:

https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awa...l/pr714350.htm

There are 15 potential actions available should they all receive a successful ’Yes’ vote.

Some are as innocuous as an orange tie...others a lot more attention grabbing.

I wish the JQ pilot group all the best in getting a deal that is fair and respectful after their many years of under-rewarded and over-utilised service spent building a successful and profitable business. As a JQ pilot said to me recently: “Its not just about money, or how hard we have to work. It’s about being treated as an equal member of the QF Group...not the poor step-child who is constantly given a raw deal compared to his other siblings.”

It will be an interesting December.

PG

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

My question to fellow JQ pilots and AFAP members is this. Will these actions genuinely help our barging position or are we simply doing this as a ‘[email protected] you’ to the company?

I’m worried that emotions are getting in the way of clear thinking and that we are sleepwalking into a conflict that has little chance of a positive outcome.

[Clipster]

Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

My question to fellow JQ pilots and AFAP members is this. Will these actions genuinely help our barging position or are we simply doing this as a ‘[email protected] you’ to the company?

I’m worried that emotions are getting in the way of clear thinking and that we are sleepwalking into a conflict that has little chance of a positive outcome.

I think if you feel like it’s sleepwalking you misunderstand the sentiment. ( I know you’re a JQ Pilot. ) It’d be the first ever PIA conducted by the JQ pilot group. I think everyone is well and truly wide awake.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

I understand the anger in the group. We took a 4.5% pay cut in the last EBA and since then management have lined their pockets.

But anger isn’t great for decision making and whilst it’s easy to get caught up with the hysteria it might worth taking a moment to pause and think about what we’re doing and whether it will actually help us or (as I fear) will the QF higher ups use us to make an example of what happens to work groups who step out of line?

I really do hope I’m wrong and I would in fact be grateful to anyone who can show me the wisdom behind why PIA will improve our final agreement.

[What The]

What is the alternative?

You are facing an arrogant employer who thinks it is acceptable for a select few to steal hundreds of millions of dollars from the coffers whilst standing on the necks of the operational employees.

Judging by the sentiment being shown across all operational groups I think everyone has had enough.

I wish the Jetstar Pilots all the best with their PIA. When you are the lowest paid you have nothing to lose and any threat to use another employee group to undercut you is laughable.

The midgets are quickly getting out of their depth. Not that it would take long.

[2theline]

Originally Posted by What The

What is the alternative?

You are facing an arrogant employer who thinks it is acceptable for a select few to steal hundreds of millions of dollars from the coffers whilst standing on the necks of the operational employees.

Spot on What The!

[cLeArIcE]

Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

I understand the anger in the group. We took a 4.5% pay cut in the last EBA and since then management have lined their pockets.

But anger isn’t great for decision making and whilst it’s easy to get caught up with the hysteria it might worth taking a moment to pause and think about what we’re doing and whether it will actually help us or (as I fear) will the QF higher ups use us to make an example of what happens to work groups who step out of line?

I really do hope I’m wrong and I would in fact be grateful to anyone who can show me the wisdom behind why PIA will improve our final agreement.

Well what's the worst thing they can do?
Give JQ flying away (ha to who?)
Lock you out? Ground the airline?... So what? Who cares.
If people don't have a bit of spare cash to survive a lock out or grounding I'd suggest you might have bigger problems.

Stay strong and I wish you all the best in your endeavour for better pay and better respect.

[Lookleft]

Don't think your scaremongering is going to work this time round Lookleft. As it has been pointed out already, its not about teaching JQ a lesson, its about not taking a massive step backwards in pay and conditions once again. Time will tell if PIA will work, it did for Tiger

What scaremongering was I doing whatever the first time round was? Do you mean in the last EBA or the EBA before that or the EBA that was originally negotiated by the JPC before AIPA or AFAP represented JQ pilots? Ask the Tiger pilots who will be affected by the reduction in fleet numbers how their PIA worked for them.

My question to fellow JQ pilots and AFAP members is this. Will these actions genuinely help our barging position or are we simply doing this as a ‘[email protected] you’ to the company? I’m worried that emotions are getting in the way of clear thinking and that we are sleepwalking into a conflict that has little chance of a positive outcome.

Unfortunately once the drums start beating then emotion is all that drives it. The year of the fall of the Berlin Wall is testament to that.

It’d be the first ever PIA conducted by the JQ pilot group. I think everyone is well and truly wide awake.

You are assuming that the ballot will be successful. Its not the first time PIA has been initiated but an agreement was struck before the process was completed. This is the fundamental flaw with the threat of PIA this time around. There is no agreement! The other flaw is that there is no coordinated approach with the other union. For the many posters who are not JQ pilots and roll out the well worn cliches of "stay strong and united" then understand that the AFAP PIA is more about the politics of dominance over AIPA as it is trying to get a negotiated outcome.

You are facing an arrogant employer who thinks it is acceptable for a select few to steal hundreds of millions of dollars from the coffers whilst standing on the necks of the operational employees.Judging by the sentiment being shown across all operational groups I think everyone has had enough.

I don't disagree with that but the airlines are no different to most other large corporations that thrive on exploiting the low wage environment that currently exists and has been pointed out by the Reserve Bank as being a drag on the economy. Everyone has had enough but the current industrial system has been developed to keep it that way. Whats the alternative? How radical do you want to get? The choice is to operate within the current framework which is what the AFAP are offering but don't expect any different outcome. If it makes people feel better and allow them to state " We showed them" then fine but lets be realistic and keep emotion out of it. Or go the HK students approach, but I doubt whether any pilot will be interested in going down that path. Your political freedom is not under threat, you are not facing deportation if you don't toe the party line and you can still quite easily put food on the table and keep a roof over your head. The main sentiment for PIA seems to be that its unfair that the CEO gets all that money and we don't.

Whats the alternative? Get an agreement that both unions put to their membership, vote on that, if not happy then as a unified pilot group go to the PIA process. Once that is completed (if it gets that far) vote on any revised agreement. If that is successful then everyone can take time out from all the angst for another 3 years.If the revised agreement gets voted down I suppose you try again with PIA but in my experience I have never seen it go to that stage as usually EBA fatigue sets in and people just want it finalized. Game,Set and Match corporate Australia.

[Roj approved]

Originally Posted by What The

What is the alternative?

You are facing an arrogant employer who thinks it is acceptable for a select few to steal hundreds of millions of dollars from the coffers whilst standing on the necks of the operational employees.

Very accurate what the

[Paddleboat]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

You are assuming that the ballot will be successful. Its not the first time PIA has been initiated but an agreement was struck before the process was completed. This is the fundamental flaw with the threat of PIA this time around. There is no agreement! The other flaw is that there is no coordinated approach with the other union. For the many posters who are not JQ pilots and roll out the well worn cliches of "stay strong and united" then understand that the AFAP PIA is more about the politics of dominance over AIPA as it is trying to get a negotiated outcome.

If you think the ballot won't be successful you either don't work for Jetstar or you're a SBM. Its going to get a resounding yes vote. I'd be surprised by anything less than 90% for all forms of PIA. People are pissed like never before.

As to the fragmented Pilot base, what % of pilots do AIPA even represent now? And I don't mean simply being a member, but bargaining representative. The default is AFAP for dual members. Sure a few have kept dual membership due to > 50 year old LOL clauses, but the AFAP has seen significant additional membership in the last 2 weeks, and a great many are AIPA members.

I think its fairly clear that a unified pilot body exists, and it has little to do with AIPA.

Originally Posted by Lookleft

I don't disagree with that but the airlines are no different to most other large corporations that thrive on exploiting the low wage environment that currently exists and has been pointed out by the Reserve Bank as being a drag on the economy. Everyone has had enough but the current industrial system has been developed to keep it that way. Whats the alternative? How radical do you want to get? The choice is to operate within the current framework which is what the AFAP are offering but don't expect any different outcome. If it makes people feel better and allow them to state " We showed them" then fine but lets be realistic and keep emotion out of it. Or go the HK students approach, but I doubt whether any pilot will be interested in going down that path. Your political freedom is not under threat, you are not facing deportation if you don't toe the party line and you can still quite easily put food on the table and keep a roof over your head. The main sentiment for PIA seems to be that its unfair that the CEO gets all that money and we don't.

How wonderfully defeatist.

Tiger secured 14% with PIA, oil workers secured 20% with PIA.

edit : Cant post link to Australian article due to my post count. Google it.

I do not agree that we simply give up.

Given that JQ pilots are expected to operate the largest NB aircraft of any NB airline in the country, highest number of pax (by a mile), longest sectors, most sectors, least days off, most approach capability, most roster flexibility, for the least pay, what do you suggest we do? Say thankyou? The company has made its position crystal clear. 3% (for the workers of course, obviously management isn't subject to this imaginary wage policy that nobody has ever seen written anywhere). No flexibility, no discussion. The end. Oh and we want to you to start flying wide body passenger loads internationally for regional airline pay.

Thanks.

xoxox JQ management.

Originally Posted by Lookleft

Whats the alternative? Get an agreement that both unions put to their membership, vote on that, if not happy then as a unified pilot group go to the PIA process. Once that is completed (if it gets that far) vote on any revised agreement. If that is successful then everyone can take time out from all the angst for another 3 years.If the revised agreement gets voted down I suppose you try again with PIA but in my experience I have never seen it go to that stage as usually EBA fatigue sets in and people just want it finalized. Game,Set and Match corporate Australia.

We have applied for PIA as a unified pilot body group. The % of pilots not represented by AFAP is now minimal.

[CamelSquadron]

Highly paid professional going on strike asking for more money. You have completely lost touch with reality and you will get no support from Joe Public who just see you as greedy and selfish. Your playing right into the hands of management.

[CamelSquadron]

Here is the flip side of your statement......
"You are facing an arrogant white collar employee group who thinks it is acceptable for a select few that earn hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to stand on the necks of their working class customers who have spent their hard earning savings on taking a Christmas holiday".

Why do you keep repeating the same mistakes?

[Eaglet]

Originally Posted by CamelSquadron

Highly paid professional going on strike asking for more money. You have completely lost touch with reality and you will get no support from Joe Public who just see you as greedy and selfish. Your playing right into the hands of management.

Don't need the support of Joe public, they're not the ones voting on the EBA. They may get pi$$ed off at jq pilots, but they'll probably be just as mad at jetstar as a whole. Jq already cancels plenty of flights even without a strike, due to lack of crew!

[Blueskymine]

Just waiting for Trento and Stella to appear on the news. Stuck in Bali after their flight is cancelled. Hungover. No money. Bintang singlets and a fresh tattoo inked on the arm.

Can you imagine it.

[theheadmaster]

Originally Posted by Eaglet

Don't need the support of Joe public, they're not the ones voting on the EBA. They may get pi$$ed off at jq pilots, but they'll probably be just as mad at jetstar as a whole. Jq already cancels plenty of flights even without a strike, due to lack of crew!

The bigger picture is that Joe public votes for the politician that sets policy, legislates and has specific powers under the Fair Work Act.

[Lapon]

Originally Posted by CamelSquadron

Highly paid professional going on strike asking for more money. You have completely lost touch with reality and you will get no support from Joe Public who just see you as greedy and selfish. Your playing right into the hands of management.

The pilot group do not need to win the hearts and minds of Joe Public, the company does. That's the reason the company has a marketing department in the first place.
Any fury will be at Jetstar as 'they' have just advised Joe of a disruption to his flight. The pilot is just a brand less and nameless person in a white shirt.

[Lookleft]

But if Jetstar can spin the narrative to blame the greedy pilots then that fury will be directed at the pilots. The battle for hearts and minds is not an insignificant one.

[Lapon]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

But if Jetstar can spin the narrative to blame the greedy pilots then that fury will be directed at the pilots. The battle for hearts and minds is not an insignificant one.

Ah but how exaclty would the pilots receive the public wrath? Jetstar (or any) pilots are as good as invisible to the public. Whether the public harbor any resentment towards the pilots will not directly affect what they get paid now or in the future. The pilots have little to fear in the way of 'brand damage' vs what the company does.

I was involved in pilot group industrial action years ago, the news that evening interviewed passengers caught up. Opinions varied, but the most common opinion was one of the big corporation bullying the worker at the coal face. Ultimately it didnt matter what the public thought as to effect to outcome of the EBA.

Further more, with 'the company' boasting record profits and executive remuneration in this climate, I suspect that any one sided claims of pilot greed would be akin to throwing stones in a glass house.

[Ragnor]

Originally Posted by Lapon

The pilots have little to fear in the way of 'brand damage' vs what the company does..

This I agree with 100%, the 3 morons in Melbourne head office think we the Pilot group will damage the brand. The business does this on its own, but after all it is a LCC!

[2theline]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

But if Jetstar can spin the narrative to blame the greedy pilots then that fury will be directed at the pilots. The battle for hearts and minds is not an insignificant one.

You're really clutching at straws now mate.