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Qantas Short Haul 2019 EA Negotiations (EA 8)

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Qantas Short Haul 2019 EA Negotiations (EA 8)

Old 29th Jun 2019, 12:04
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Please just state the paragraph number in the document that mentions 15 working days.
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Old 29th Jun 2019, 12:14
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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It is almost impossible to accumulate sick leave under the current system. Young F/Os should think very carefully about where they might be in the distant future if they become long-term sick. Short haul used to be the best gig in town but the last couple of EBA’s have been a disaster. That’s why nobody is staying...........
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Old 29th Jun 2019, 21:45
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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100% correct, it is even 76 Duty hours not stick, An 11:45 day that has 6:05 stick would deduct 11:45 from the 76:00! What is worse, if you have a fatigue day due their rostering, it is also deducted from this! ****** over with a sharp stick.
From a Qantas Short Haul pilot.

Paragraph 40.1 is clear, it is 76 duty hours.
Not quite sure how it could be argued otherwise, thank you for posting the actual document it is written there in black and white.
Thus, given FWA has set ruled this calculation short changes shift workers, the recompense due employees under this erroneous contract 'interpretation' for the entirety of its existence is substantial.
Naturally, the 'representative association' will be right onto this.
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Old 29th Jun 2019, 23:37
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wombat watcher View Post
For the pygmies, what that means is that a shorthaul pilot can have 15 working days pa sick plus urti. Any trips he drops is unpaid except that the pilot can have up to 76 hours of pay pa to offset any trips he has dropped unpaid. Unlike longhaul, if he is sick on a day off it doesnít count.
That means if a pilot has for instance dropped 200 hours of flying pa due to being sick he will get 76 hours back paid meaning he doesnít get paid for the 126 other hours. It is then up to the pilot. To chase the 126 hours if he wants to get paid for them
This of course is underpinned by the minimum guarantee of not being paid less than 58 hours per month.
Rated De, your reference to whatever arbitration is irrelevant in this context.
You couldn't be more wrong.

There are currently two systems.

Personal Leave is accrued at 76 duty hour per year. When you are sick you are deducted, from this balance, the duty hours for the planned trip and paid whatever the planned credit was.
Sick Leave is an older system which accrued at 15 days per year but paid at 3 hours per day regardless of the planned credit. (There are some top up provisions which allow burning more days to increase credit)

Personal leave is used first till exhausted and then if necessary sick leave is used.

Rated De the case to which you refer is currently under appeal
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Old 1st Jul 2019, 11:58
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ddrwk View Post
You couldn't be more wrong.

There are currently two systems.

Personal Leave is accrued at 76 duty hour per year. When you are sick you are deducted, from this balance, the duty hours for the planned trip and paid whatever the planned credit was.
Sick Leave is an older system which accrued at 15 days per year but paid at 3 hours per day regardless of the planned credit. (There are some top up provisions which allow burning more days to increase credit)

Personal leave is used first till exhausted and then if necessary sick leave is used.

Rated De the case to which you refer is currently under appeal
Yes, the matter is pending review, however other than the cost to provide recompense, the FWA narrative was pretty clear; the intent and execution of the statute (and any contracts thereafter) was to ensure all workers (Full-time) had access to ten days paid, cumulative sick leave on an annualised basis. Employers no doubt will argue that the cost imposition to correct this error is prohibitive.
What is interesting is that smaller enterprises may receive a reprieve, but companies the size of Qantas ought be compensating those pilots and other shift workers that have been incorrectly deducted the statutory entitlements.

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Old 1st Jul 2019, 12:28
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
What is interesting is that smaller enterprises may receive a reprieve, but companies the size of Qantas ought be compensating those pilots and other shift workers that have been incorrectly deducted the statutory entitlements.
Does the law apply differently to organisations depending on revenue?

How is that correct, let alone interesting?

Last edited by ddrwk; 1st Jul 2019 at 12:41.
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 07:07
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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WW...how is the basket weaving progressing???

There will be an overwhelming No vote unless:
Day of Operation pay guarantee; (do you lose pay if your meeting is cancelled WW?)....On this point alone, with the increasing cancellation of sectors, will get a no vote from most of us if not fixed.
Sick leave provisions is changed to a minimum 14 days plus 4 days URTI ..(you were not even close WW);
Paid Reserve.
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 07:09
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know if it is going to the AIPA comm soon?
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 08:18
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
WW...how is the basket weaving progressing???

There will be an overwhelming No vote unless:
Day of Operation pay guarantee; (do you lose pay if your meeting is cancelled WW?)....On this point alone, with the increasing cancellation of sectors, will get a no vote from most of us if not fixed.
Sick leave provisions is changed to a minimum 14 days plus 4 days URTI ..(you were not even close WW);
Paid Reserve.
Is it presently the case that is flying is cancelled by the company the pilot is not paid?

With respect to the sick leave, the FWA decision (although appealed) was very clear; the conversion of sick leave DAYS to HOURS was not to short change workers like pilots working longer shifts.
The compensation due the affected workers is substantial and any pilot who works under this arrangement and is 'represented' by a union ought be asking precisely what the union intends to do about the illegally deducted sick leave.
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 08:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, if they cancel your flying,no pay The pathetically low MGH provides a low floor protection...which will become more and more of a factor as the Australian economy continues to contract.
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 09:11
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
Yes, if they cancel your flying,no pay The pathetically low MGH provides a low floor protection...which will become more and more of a factor as the Australian economy continues to contract.
So if the MGH is say 55 hours per month then the 'salary package' ought be very low.
Even casual workers are entitled to be paid if their employer decides it is not commercially viable to continue with the rostered duty.

The representative association ought be making sure that Qantas repay all the illegally deducted sick leave.
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 22:04
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah you can turn up for, say, a drw return and have it canned - you've done over 10% of your months pay. But you can make it up... Come in on another few days etc
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 06:42
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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The Commission's ruling, which centred on a pay deal for employees at pharmaceutical company AstraZeneca, found a worker's typical shift should be used to calculate the total number of hours meaning a shift-worker who does usually a 12-hour shift should receive 120 hours of paid leave per year.
Given that QF domestic pilots regularly work 10,11 or 11.5 hour duty days, the practice of deducting duty hours from the 76 hours is erroneous. Practically, instead of 10 days sick/personal leave (76/7.6=10), the company is deducting duty hours, which ordinarily are far greater than the 7.6 imagined. As conceived by FWA the formula assumed workers worked an average standard 7.6 hour day. The adopted method leaves pilots without a number of personal days.
Whatever the formula and spirited defence of management, there ought be a little more at stake for QF if this case if not overturned than a small pharmaceutical company.

(and thank-you to the QF domestic pilots providing this information)

Assumption:
  • Captain hourly rate and FO (65% of Captain rate)
  • 700 hours per year.
  • Even split between ranks
  • Agreement dated 2014 (5years)


Thus,If in a given year the pilot was credited 76 duty hours, not 120 duty hours then they have been short-changed 44 hours per year, for at least five years.
Each Captain is owed conservatively $60,000 of un-credited personal leave.
Each FO is owed conservatively $40,000 of uncredited personal leave
Both amounts ignore compounding.

Assuming around 1,000 pilots are affected, (very conservative given the rumoured training and retirement rates) with an even split between ranks,
conservatively the company ought be paying out AUD$50,000,000 to affect pilots.

Nice leverage for a pilot association.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 07:58
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
Given that QF domestic pilots regularly work 10,11 or 11.5 hour duty days, the practice of deducting duty hours from the 76 hours is erroneous. Practically, instead of 10 days sick/personal leave (76/7.6=10), the company is deducting duty hours, which ordinarily are far greater than the 7.6 imagined. As conceived by FWA the formula assumed workers worked an average standard 7.6 hour day. The adopted method leaves pilots without a number of personal days.
Whatever the formula and spirited defence of management, there ought be a little more at stake for QF if this case if not overturned than a small pharmaceutical company.

(and thank-you to the QF domestic pilots providing this information)

Assumption:
  • Captain hourly rate and FO (65% of Captain rate)
  • 700 hours per year.
  • Even split between ranks
  • Agreement dated 2014 (5years)


Thus,If in a given year the pilot was credited 76 duty hours, not 120 duty hours then they have been short-changed 44 hours per year, for at least five years.
Each Captain is owed conservatively $60,000 of un-credited personal leave.
Each FO is owed conservatively $40,000 of uncredited personal leave
Both amounts ignore compounding.

Assuming around 1,000 pilots are affected, (very conservative given the rumoured training and retirement rates) with an even split between ranks,
conservatively the company ought be paying out AUD$50,000,000 to affect pilots.

Nice leverage for a pilot association.
You really don't understand the AstrtaZenica case do you? It held that workers on a fixed 12 hour shift roster were entitled to 10 days at 12 hours per day, workers on fixed 8 hour rosters were entitled to 10 days at 8 hours pay and so on. These workers were rostered on fixed shift lengths. QF SH pilots are not. The AstraZenica case is not authority that workers with variable shift lengths automatically get 10 times their maximum possible shift length hours as an annual entitlement, as you suggest.

What is the average duty length for SH pilots?
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 09:24
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vindiesel View Post
You really don't understand the AstrtaZenica case do you? It held that workers on a fixed 12 hour shift roster were entitled to 10 days at 12 hours per day, workers on fixed 8 hour rosters were entitled to 10 days at 8 hours pay and so on. These workers were rostered on fixed shift lengths. QF SH pilots are not. The AstraZenica case is not authority that workers with variable shift lengths automatically get 10 times their maximum possible shift length hours as an annual entitlement, as you suggest.

What is the average duty length for SH pilots?
sorry what am I missing, if a pilot calls in sick donít you still get paid the daily rate of your base wage for the day? Ie if your base is $18k a month and youíre sick 3 days, you still get $18k for the month. Or are you short changed and only receive a base of $16k plus ot
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 11:01
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shortshortz View Post


sorry what am I missing, if a pilot calls in sick don’t you still get paid the daily rate of your base wage for the day? Ie if your base is $18k a month and you’re sick 3 days, you still get $18k for the month. Or are you short changed and only receive a base of $16k plus ot
76 hours doesn’t go far. Probably 10 days maximum per year on average so make sure even for a sniffle you use your URTI days. That’s what they’re for. An URTI can be bacterial, fungal or viral. We all know what it feels like with the onset of a cold. Time to pull the pin and use an URTI. Simple. Gives an extra 5 days from memory.
700 hours per year more like 900 btw.

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Old 6th Jul 2019, 13:51
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Troo believer View Post

76 hours doesnít go far. Probably 10 days maximum per year on average so make sure even for a sniffle you use your URTI days. Thatís what theyíre for. An URTI can be bacterial, fungal or viral. We all know what it feels like with the onset of a cold. Time to pull the pin and use an URTI. Simple. Gives an extra 5 days from memory.
700 hours per year more like 900 btw.

so is the argument then that you want more than 10 (plus URTI) sick days? Arenít all other airlines similar
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 21:55
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shortshortz View Post


sorry what am I missing, if a pilot calls in sick donít you still get paid the daily rate of your base wage for the day? Ie if your base is $18k a month and youíre sick 3 days, you still get $18k for the month. Or are you short changed and only receive a base of $16k plus ot
What you are missing is that if 76 hours of duty is the personal leave (as it is with QF) the intent from FWA was that an 'average' day was 7.6 hours meaning that if one was ill, 7.6 hours was taken for each day the person was ill.
The Qantas interpretation is to deduct duty hours from the total. Therefore, if a duty day was 11.45 that is deducted from the 76 hours. If a pilot happened to be sick (for illustration purposes) for duty days each rostered to be 11.45, then annual personal leave is exhausted in 6.5 days.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 22:00
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vindiesel View Post
You really don't understand the AstrtaZenica case do you? It held that workers on a fixed 12 hour shift roster were entitled to 10 days at 12 hours per day, workers on fixed 8 hour rosters were entitled to 10 days at 8 hours pay and so on. These workers were rostered on fixed shift lengths. QF SH pilots are not. The AstraZenica case is not authority that workers with variable shift lengths automatically get 10 times their maximum possible shift length hours as an annual entitlement, as you suggest.

What is the average duty length for SH pilots?
Have read the judgement in detail.
The notion that Qantas deduct duty hours rostered (ie 11.45) instead of an average 7.6 hours that provides an employee 10 days of personal leave is now illegal.

What is the average duty length for SH pilots?
That is a great question. Presumably where the duty time is greater than 7.6 hours Qantas could deduct 7.6 hours, (giving 10 days) they instead chose to deduct the actual duty hours. That it shortchanges pilots is axiomatic, the question is how much money is owed to each individual.
Qantas pilots meet the definition of shift workers.
Unless overturned Qantas owes its pilots a substantial amount of compensation.

Pick a number, $35 million, $50 million?
A great piece of leverage for a contract negotiation isn't it?
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 23:03
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
Qantas pilots meet the definition of shift workers.
Are you sure?

And why would Qantas owe pilots money?
I can see that might be the case where someone was forced to take unpaid leave due to running out of sick leave prior to being off work for 10 days in a given year, but you have used ALL pilots in your calculation. Given that sick leave is a potential cost, would not an increase to a pilots leave bank ensure NES compliance? Whereas a cash hand out would not?

As has been stated above, not all duties are 12 hours long. There is a conceivable scenario where depending on the duties planned when sick leave is taken that 76 duty hours means MORE than a 10 day entitlement.
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