Virgin Australia pushes back Boeing 737 MAX order

[Buster Hyman]

Originally Posted by PoppaJo

Poor old Tiger. Stuck with this ballsup fleet plan until 2025. Hahahaha

I think I'd fly on a MAX before a Corrosion Comet!

[groundbum]

I'm not sure it's useful to blame any one single factor for an aircraft accident. Safety is all about having many layers of safety so if one is compromised somehow then other layers will correct it before it gets out of hand. Accident investigation isn't about attributing blame, but about finding all the weaknesses involved, and getting them resolved so that aviation is safer for everybody.

The pilots had minute to react to very complex situations, all while hurtling through the air and with inadequate knowledge. B engineers had years sat at comfy desks to build MCAS properly, with loads of peer review and years of experience, but still produced a lethal system that any engineer newbie could point out was lethal, relying on one sensor.

G

[maggot]

Originally Posted by groundbum

I'm not sure it's useful to blame any one single factor for an aircraft accident. Safety is all about having many layers of safety so if one is compromised somehow then other layers will correct it before it gets out of hand. Accident investigation isn't about attributing blame, but about finding all the weaknesses involved, and getting them resolved so that aviation is safer for everybody.

The pilots had minute to react to very complex situations, all while hurtling through the air and with inadequate knowledge. B engineers had years sat at comfy desks to build MCAS properly, with loads of peer review and years of experience, but still produced a lethal system that any engineer newbie could point out was lethal, relying on one sensor.

G

Loads of peer review? How did they end up with that system them? Seems like a summer internship project

[Australopithecus]

Originally Posted by SRM

Are you saying that the 737 cannot be controlled with the elevators if the stabiliser is the full AND position.

Does in the Sim at 250 kts.

By full nose down trim do you mean what you could get electrically? ie, around 3.9 units, or did you crank it all the way to zero? Did you also have the elevator feel cranked max nose down as it does when stall ID is reached?

MCAS is able to use a subset of the STS to run the trim electrically to zero units.

The stabiliser can easily overpower the elevator in my simulator experience, and evidently in actual life-or-death situations too.

[SRM]

Originally Posted by Australopithecus

By full nose down trim do you mean what you could get electrically? ie, around 3.9 units, or did you crank it all the way to zero? Did you also have the elevator feel cranked max nose down as it does when stall ID is reached?

MCAS is able to use a subset of the STS to run the trim electrically to zero units.

The stabiliser can easily overpower the elevator in my simulator experience, and evidently in actual life-or-death situations too.

So you are saying from your experience the aircraft cannot be fully controlled with elevators!

[SIUYA]

So you are saying from your experience the aircraft cannot be fully controlled with elevators!

FFS......THREAD DRIFT GOING COMPLETELY OUT-OF-CONTROL.

If you experts want to continue your discussion on 737MAX crash dynamics which in your view involve, crew, trim, pilot error, stab, speed trim, whatever ……….can you do so on another thread please?

This one is titled "Virgin Australia pushes back Boeing 737 MAX order"

Can we leave it at that please?

Before I get savaged in typical PPRuNe fashion, 'YES" I am type-rated and experinced on 737 (200 through 800, but not MAX), and 'YES" I am a qualified AND experienced aircraft accident investigator.

Some of you are posting good stuff on the MAX 'issues', but those comments are NOT relevant to this thread.

Start a new one please.

[Mr Google Head]

Originally Posted by SIUYA

FFS......THREAD DRIFT GOING COMPLETELY OUT-OF-CONTROL.

If you experts want to continue your discussion on 737MAX crash dynamics which in your view involve, crew, trim, pilot error, stab, speed trim, whatever ……….can you do so on another thread please?

This one is titled "Virgin Australia pushes back Boeing 737 MAX order"

Can we leave it at that please?

Before I get savaged in typical PPRuNe fashion, 'YES" I am type-rated and experinced on 737 (200 through 800, but not MAX), and 'YES" I am a qualified AND experienced aircraft accident investigator.

Some of you are posting good stuff on the MAX 'issues', but those comments are NOT relevant to this thread.

Start a new one please.

since when on Pprune do people have to comment relevant to the thread? 😂😂

[Cloud Cutter]

Originally Posted by SIUYA

FFS......THREAD DRIFT GOING COMPLETELY OUT-OF-CONTROL.

If you experts want to continue your discussion on 737MAX crash dynamics which in your view involve, crew, trim, pilot error, stab, speed trim, whatever ……….can you do so on another thread please?

This one is titled "Virgin Australia pushes back Boeing 737 MAX order"

Can we leave it at that please?

Before I get savaged in typical PPRuNe fashion, 'YES" I am type-rated and experinced on 737 (200 through 800, but not MAX), and 'YES" I am a qualified AND experienced aircraft accident investigator.

Some of you are posting good stuff on the MAX 'issues', but those comments are NOT relevant to this thread.

Start a new one please.

I did pause to reflect on this before posting a response, but 1) I’m sick of professional pilots feasting off their recently deceased colleagues, and 2) the reasoning behind the deferral of aircraft orders seems at least partly relevant, in the absence of any substantial comment directly relating to the thread topic.

Moving back to the original topic, this is a positive commercial move for VA. Fuel prices have dropped substantially since the initial order, and the much higher capital outlay for the Max 8 is no longer balanced by fuel savings to the same extent. The 10 seems a better prospect assuming the price is right, which I’m picking it is. I’d suggest that timing may finally have worked in VA’s favour.

[SIUYA]

Yeah, sorry Mr Google Head. In a moment of madness I seem to have forgotten the PPRuNe phenomenon of thread-hijack.

Anyway, that aside, fortunately Cloud Cutter seems to have got things nicely back on thread

Looking at the revised order of MAX 8 and MAX10, there also seems to be a fairly big seat capacity increase overall, so if, as Cloud Cutter suggest, the pricing is right, then it's probably a smart move by VA.

[No Idea Either]

Not that VA is flush with cash, but delaying the order has freed up a fair chunk of CAPEX. I wonder if they’ll use it elsewhere................

[VH-ABC]

Originally Posted by No Idea Either

Not that VA is flush with cash, but delaying the order has freed up a fair chunk of CAPEX. I wonder if they’ll use it elsewhere................

New lounges, a regional jet fleet, and the purchase of another airline like... Air North. It’s the Virgin way!

[PPRuNeUser0198]

It is clearly a financial improvement strategy. Keep in mind this is also the new CEO's first full fiscal. He'll want to improve the balance sheet, and signal to shareholders that he is focussed on shareholder value/return since they have suffered terribly (decline is stock value and lack if dividends). Deferring spend will enable more debt payback (keep in mind VA is highly leveraged at 4.3x) and is only just meeting interest cover (1.3x). They need to boost these measures whilst also facing tough headwinds into the next FY with fuel continuing to appreciate and FX not fairing any better.

[Icarus2001]

VH-ABC and T-Vasis, I think those two posts sum this up.

I think the Max issue has given VA a free kick to defer orders with a great excuse. As for VA plans. They change every month. There seems to be a definite lack of strategic direction. Has the new CEO made a statement of where he wants to take VA?