Are the minimum hours in the right hand seat dropping?
mate, your’e an idiot if you are suggesting that the FO’s experience was the cause of that accident since you would have to able to know what caused that accident. That’s like saying that the Qantas 747 that went off the runway in BKK had an experienced crew onboard so that is proof that too many hours is a bad thing.
We haven’t reached that stage quite yet but it will probably bite in about 20 odd years when the majority of domestic captains retire, to be replaced with the current wave of cadets. Jetstar are now starting upgrades the initial batch of cadets.
The experienced captain of the next few decades that have gone GA-Charter-Regional => Airbus/Boeing....will be few and far I’m afraid.
And it’s not as if this is a thing that’s just happened recently. QF, Q-Link, VA, VARA, Rex, JQ, Ansett, Cobham, Maroomba, Airnorth, Sharp, Skippers, O’Connors, MacAir, are just some of the airlines in this country I can remember, past and present, who have put well selected and trained low houred pilots into Turboprops and Jets. They started doing this not recently, but over 50 years ago.
And it’s not as if this is a thing that’s just happened recently. QF, Q-Link, VA, VARA, Rex, JQ, Ansett, Cobham, Maroomba, Airnorth, Sharp, Skippers, O’Connors, MacAir, are just some of the airlines in this country I can remember, past and present, who have put well selected and trained low houred pilots into Turboprops and Jets. They started doing this not recently, but over 50 years ago.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 28th Mar 2019 at 01:31.
Yes, but what I am saying is that these types of incidents are not exclusive to low hour FO's, I have conducted plenty of investigations and the only 'Flap' lever movement in the wrong direction I have investigated was actioned by the Captain. There is no doubt that unfamiliarity with a type can lead to a greater number of mistakes, I don't see though how having 3000 hours in a tourist operation flying 172's lessens this risk on an A320 or a 737. New to type is new to type, think of all of those over 60 Captains that Air NZ basically sacked as they couldn't meet the minimum standards during their A320 line training, they went to court and lost, their experience didn't help them pass a course that a 200 hour cadet can pass. I just don't think you can say putting 200 hour pilots in the RHS is bad just because Australia is decades behind the rest of the world and people want to protect GA as that is where most of us come from.
When we’re talking about 250hr cadets in the right hand seats of turboprops and Jets we aren’t talking about grabbing random graduates fresh out of CPL training out of any old flying school.
Tough selection processes, structured and appropriate training for multicrew ops, regular assessment of standards and structured line training is the name of the game. Europeans have been doing this for decades. And honestly it has been happening in Australia too on a smaller scale for longer than most seem to acknowledge.
“Cheap FOs”? A new joiner is obviously paid less than a long serving one, it’s called pay scales, and Seniority!
Now with the exponential growth of the airline sector this isn’t the case.
Coupled with the exponential decline in conditions and viability of aviation as a career along with the slow death of GA in Australia.
CessnaPete, the whole low hour RHS thing is geared to reducing future staff costs and nothing more. Firstly, airlines know that aspiring pilots will do anything to get into a jet immediately, including working for peanuts and being held in bondage for years. They also know that throwing a low time pilot in the right hand seat of a jet means they get cheap FOs and a cheap regular line Captain who will babysit/train them through the “early days” safe in the knowledge that the Captain retains strictly liability. Airlines also know that CASA readily falls for the “show us the accident stats” defence.
Dick, the RHS experience levels are declining and I’m sure the travelling public are not even remotely aware, furthermore the airlines would never dream of revealing it.
Why did FAA go the way they did?
What were the repercussions?
What does it mean now?
(Yes I know the answers, just putting it out there as for some reason it does not seem to gain any momentum the discussion).
As I said great for Aussies with the E3.
What were the repercussions?
What does it mean now?
(Yes I know the answers, just putting it out there as for some reason it does not seem to gain any momentum the discussion).
As I said great for Aussies with the E3.
If if you didn’t get picked up - it was a long slog through GA and into the regionals. If you stuck at it. The best you could hope for was link or hazos. Impulse etc. If you were pretty special, you may have got a look in at National Jet on the 146. They were very picky. Meaning a de orbit burn or two. Mostly you had to pay to progress. If you were lucky to make it that far. There were gigs overseas in dark corners and far flung places offering an airline version of GA. Renewable every 5 years or so with a new contract. After you managed the deorbit burns in Australia or managed to pay a lot of money for a type rating.
The worlds changed, flying is more affordable and there’s more of it. So the opportunities came with it.
I have no problem with a well trained 200 hour pilot in the right seat. You can’t tell the difference between them and a ex regional pilot after a few years. They may just be a little smarter due to the stricter vetting they went through to get there. It’s a different job flying a jet, especially a long haul one. It’s about knowing a lot of stuff about a lot of stuff.
No disrespect to Captain Sherms old boy, but I believe they had a ‘little’ retention problem in the RAF back then. If you ticked the box, you flew it. If you came back, well done young chap. Now go out again. I couldn’t have done it.
I loved my GA time. However, it did absolutely nothing for my airline flying. Well except it gave me a magic number to progress to the next level and some battle stories to tell. They’re that far embellished these days it’s hard to tell exactly what went on back then. I think maybe I just got better. In the stories anyway.
Being on both sides of the fence, I can say the only ones who care deeply about cadets, are the ones who are not cadets, and the ones who have to do their airline conversion.
If I had my time again I would have done a Cadetship in a heart beat and have been 1,000,000 dollars better off financially.
The GG, each to their own!
I wouldn’t trade my GA days for the world.
Yes I feel belting around in a 210 having to make decisions has helped me in my airline and corporate career.
I wouldn’t trade my GA days for the world.
Yes I feel belting around in a 210 having to make decisions has helped me in my airline and corporate career.
Mid 1990s and I couldn't even get an interview for rhs turboprop despite having an ATPL 4000 hrs total with multi engine and turbine time. Late 1990s and GA employers were still paying below the award IF they gave you a job. Early 2000s, flew with a Westwind Captain who was willing to go back into the right seat of a Metroliner just to get into Kendall Airlines. Virgin Blue required you to pay for your own B737 rating. Things started improving around the mid 2000s at the lower end however paying for your endorsement is still with us.
Plenty of opportunities in Asia for experienced jet pilots with a decent type on their licence.
Plenty of opportunities in Asia for experienced jet pilots with a decent type on their licence.
Coupled with the exponential decline in conditions and viability of aviation as a career along with the slow death of GA in Australia.
CessnaPete, the whole low hour RHS thing is geared to reducing future staff costs and nothing more. Firstly, airlines know that aspiring pilots will do anything to get into a jet immediately, including working for peanuts and being held in bondage for years. They also know that throwing a low time pilot in the right hand seat of a jet means they get cheap FOs and a cheap regular line Captain who will babysit/train them through the “early days” safe in the knowledge that the Captain retains strictly liability. Airlines also know that CASA readily falls for the “show us the accident stats” defence.
Dick, the RHS experience levels are declining and I’m sure the travelling public are not even remotely aware, furthermore the airlines would never dream of revealing it.
You are missing the point. There is no pool of 'experienced' high hours jet rated F\Os to recruit from in UK/Europe, for the reasons posted before.
Your stringently selected/competently trained and route mentored 250 hour pilots will become 1500 hour experienced, multi sector operators, after a couple of years, then everyone can be happy? In my part of the world if they don't reach the standards required they are rejected. You have to start somewhere.
People continue to bang on about inexperienced, presumably ill trained, incompetent F/Os,in their employ, that's the airline training management fault. Worrying, if thats the case.
Statistically for example BEA/BA has had no safety issues after many years of cadet recruitment.
Ryanair (despite their less than glorious customer service reputation!!) operate hundreds of nearly new B737, every day. on thousands of sectors around Europe, some with new hire F/Os. Operating to some operationally demanding, less equipped, regional airports. Their safety record is second to none.
Whether you’re flying left or right seat, I think, that there is an unspoken respect and comarade between Pilots when you know that they’ve shared a similar arduous path in staying alive in an aeroplane through some respectable period of time. If nothing more, I t’s a human factors aspect that shouldn’t be ignored.
200hr Pilots can be trained to do a job (I would’ve argued the same when I had mine), but if the requirement of the day is to have two Pilots flying the aircraft, then you can’t beat that couple thousand hours in GA before youre given the responsibility.
200hr Pilots can be trained to do a job (I would’ve argued the same when I had mine), but if the requirement of the day is to have two Pilots flying the aircraft, then you can’t beat that couple thousand hours in GA before youre given the responsibility.
Whether you’re flying left or right seat, I think, that there is an unspoken respect and comarade between Pilots when you know that they’ve shared a similar arduous path in staying alive in an aeroplane through some respectable period of time. If nothing more, I t’s a human factors aspect that shouldn’t be ignored.
Maybe a lot of people would bond more easily because of shared backgrounds or prior jobs or such, but that shouldn’t mean they don’t give the same level of professional respect to a pilot because they didn’t follow the same path into an airline that they did. If they do that’s a sign of poor character.
Last edited by dr dre; 28th Mar 2019 at 21:41.
Generally from my experience those from GA who come into regionals have a negative perception of ex cadets, and understandably thay comes from the GA echo chamber that cadets are jumping the queue and lack ability. Those views don't generally last once they realise the mountain every single pilot has to climb to get checked to line and that most of the LHS pilots are coming from the cadet stream.