Are the minimum hours in the right hand seat dropping?
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Hours in the right seat are dropping in Qantas as F/Os are getting commands after years of stagnation.
longhaul average F/Os probably dropping from around 18000 hours down to 14-15000! SHOCK, HORROR!
longhaul average F/Os probably dropping from around 18000 hours down to 14-15000! SHOCK, HORROR!
Rex is taking non type rated FOs on 500 hours now
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But taking someone from scratch and specifically educating and training them for the job they will actually be doing also produces a capable pilot- as the thousands of examples in Europe show.
Last edited by cattletruck; 27th Mar 2019 at 11:53. Reason: fix plurality
what worries me is not necessarily the 200 hour newbie in the RHS, it is the low time capt in the LHS who, about 2 nanoseconds ago was the 200hr newbie, who learned the trade from a similar low time Capt. The overall experience levels appear to be dropping and that, I believe is the biggest threat. A low time FO learning from a very experienced captain will learn a lot, a low time FO learning form a very inexperienced capt will learn very little. The overall lack of experience in the industry will come back to haunt us.
zanthrus
A pretty insulting comment re Jetstar pilots! Where have you been the last few decades? The practise of which you and Dick seem unaware, has been the norm in Europe for many years.
For example the UK Airline in which spent 31 year aviating, has been accepting cadet pilots into the RHS of two pilot jets since the late 60s early 70s. A necessity unlike Oz, as there is no large GA or Military pool of recruits to draw on.
Started way back on HS Tridents and 737 and now A320 family. High education qualifications followed by stringent selection before flying training. Leave the College with 200 hrs or so, CPL/IR on twin piston, and frozen ATPL.
Type Rating and Base Training, followed by about 50 sectors route training with a Training Capt, and after being released to Line flying rostered only with experienced Capts. for the next six months or so, with regular progress checks.
Many of the original pilots have now retired as Wide Body and Concorde Capts. With no operational problems. Good training. rather than 1500 hours as a C172 Instructor are probably more important.
The ethos continues to the present with experienced DEP recruited directly into the RHS of 744,787,777 and even A380 on two pilot ops. (Many LH routes to USA East Coast Chicago etc are flown with two pilots, including the A380.)
A 3 day selection process and sim check ride before joining.
Partially trained S/Os are not used at all in the airline, on LH routes all operational and relief pilots qualified to carry out handling sectors.
Recently a couple of experienced A380 SFO have moved RHS to LHS on first Commands, it’s the training that counts not only flying hours.
A pretty insulting comment re Jetstar pilots! Where have you been the last few decades? The practise of which you and Dick seem unaware, has been the norm in Europe for many years.
For example the UK Airline in which spent 31 year aviating, has been accepting cadet pilots into the RHS of two pilot jets since the late 60s early 70s. A necessity unlike Oz, as there is no large GA or Military pool of recruits to draw on.
Started way back on HS Tridents and 737 and now A320 family. High education qualifications followed by stringent selection before flying training. Leave the College with 200 hrs or so, CPL/IR on twin piston, and frozen ATPL.
Type Rating and Base Training, followed by about 50 sectors route training with a Training Capt, and after being released to Line flying rostered only with experienced Capts. for the next six months or so, with regular progress checks.
Many of the original pilots have now retired as Wide Body and Concorde Capts. With no operational problems. Good training. rather than 1500 hours as a C172 Instructor are probably more important.
The ethos continues to the present with experienced DEP recruited directly into the RHS of 744,787,777 and even A380 on two pilot ops. (Many LH routes to USA East Coast Chicago etc are flown with two pilots, including the A380.)
A 3 day selection process and sim check ride before joining.
Partially trained S/Os are not used at all in the airline, on LH routes all operational and relief pilots qualified to carry out handling sectors.
Recently a couple of experienced A380 SFO have moved RHS to LHS on first Commands, it’s the training that counts not only flying hours.
Last edited by cessnapete; 27th Mar 2019 at 14:02.
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has been the norm in Europe for many years.
This link sums it up - https://www.faa.gov/news/press_relea...m?newsId=14838
Thats why so many Aussies can take advantage of the E3 Visa and work for a US regional.
A well trained 200 hr pilot who has completed an appropriate integrated course may well be more suitable than say a 3,000 hour bush pilot or instructor.
Rather like the argument it is safer to employ a 200 hour cadet so that an airline can brain wash (indoctrinate) him from the start with the host airline's SOP's (the world's best of course) rather than hire an experienced GA pilot with considerable command (decision making time) but who purportedly will likely be so full of bad habits that the airline would have to waste valuable resources and time in the simulator just to "re-educate him"
Last edited by Centaurus; 27th Mar 2019 at 13:22.
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what worries me is not necessarily the 200 hour newbie in the RHS, it is the low time capt in the LHS who, about 2 nanoseconds ago was the 200hr newbie, who learned the trade from a similar low time Capt. The overall experience levels appear to be dropping and that, I believe is the biggest threat. A low time FO learning from a very experienced captain will learn a lot, a low time FO learning form a very inexperienced capt will learn very little. The overall lack of experience in the industry will come back to haunt us.
The experienced captain of the next few decades that have gone GA-Charter-Regional => Airbus/Boeing....will be few and far I’m afraid.
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What has always been in my mind when flying in Europe with second in command copilots straight from flying schools via simulator time then into the right hand seat of a jet transport, was how they would cope if the old bloke in the left seat suddenly keeled over at in the cruise at 35000 and the the copilot was all alone apart from ATC, and the autopilot. Many of the recently graduated copilots I flew with wouldn't have a clue quite frankly.
Without all the bells and whistles of automation they have been brought up on during their brief time in the airline, I am convinced they would be out of their depth - despite holding the exalted rank of having three bars and legally second in command. Although not their fault, it is the company imposed complete lack of hands on pure instrument flying ability that is the elephant in the room. Fortunately, statistics are on their side and the short danger period of less than 1000 hours RH seat soon passes.
Without all the bells and whistles of automation they have been brought up on during their brief time in the airline, I am convinced they would be out of their depth - despite holding the exalted rank of having three bars and legally second in command. Although not their fault, it is the company imposed complete lack of hands on pure instrument flying ability that is the elephant in the room. Fortunately, statistics are on their side and the short danger period of less than 1000 hours RH seat soon passes.
What has always been in my mind when flying in Europe with second in command copilots straight from flying schools via simulator time then into the right hand seat of a jet transport, was how they would cope if the old bloke in the left seat suddenly keeled over at in the cruise at 35000 and the the copilot was all alone apart from ATC, and the autopilot. Many of the recently graduated copilots I flew with wouldn't have a clue quite frankly.
Without all the bells and whistles of automation they have been brought up on during their brief time in the airline, I am convinced they would be out of their depth - despite holding the exalted rank of having three bars and legally second in command. Although not their fault, it is the company imposed complete lack of hands on pure instrument flying ability that is the elephant in the room. Fortunately, statistics are on their side and the short danger period of less than 1000 hours RH seat soon passes.
Without all the bells and whistles of automation they have been brought up on during their brief time in the airline, I am convinced they would be out of their depth - despite holding the exalted rank of having three bars and legally second in command. Although not their fault, it is the company imposed complete lack of hands on pure instrument flying ability that is the elephant in the room. Fortunately, statistics are on their side and the short danger period of less than 1000 hours RH seat soon passes.
Do you really think that the said airlines training department would release a P2 onto the line if he was not capable of a single crew emergency??
sheppy
Your airline obviously recruited unsuitable clueless co pilots!!
Last edited by cessnapete; 27th Mar 2019 at 14:59.
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Do you really think that the said airlines training department would release a P2 onto the line if he was not capable of a single crew emergency??
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I second that yes! Cathay S/o's are NOT even trained on TCAS manourvres in cruise! Cut backs aplenty!
In today's climate it's all about "affordable safety" (How far can you cut back until safety is compomised & a death occurs!)... all very well until a "Management's" (term used very losely!) offspring dies.
gtseraf - totally agree.
cattletruck - Having experienced the EU weather alot I must say I was always on my toes watching out and trying to read the cloud formations and vapour trail movements. THIS was often the only small indication of turbulence available, that would upset an otherwise pleasant flight service. Thankfully being in a widebody we were often above it (except in China where no Foreign carrier was to be above a local
) Now I'm not talking about the turbulence experienced often on NATS ot Nth Pacific. That's a very different scenario though has the same basic concepts.
Many "youngen's" are not aware of these tell-tail signs to look out for nowdays... that goes worldwide and even moreso here in Australia, where the champ on my right is often on his/her first jet in the upper levels. Some listen to advice, some don't and their career progresses accordingly.
Aviation doesn't let you have your "oops mistakes" because you chose not to listen or learn, because you thought you knew better or it didn't seem right... That then becomes your reputation, which is all you can hang your hat on together with your log book, in this Industry, which is very small in this region.
So in closing, some great comments in the contributions above and yes I agree definately the minimum hours has decreased, dramatically and all you need to look at to confirm this are all the myryad of endless advertisments on the AFAP and job websites here and globally.
Are the hours right seat better quality now? Not here in Aust, no where near!
In today's climate it's all about "affordable safety" (How far can you cut back until safety is compomised & a death occurs!)... all very well until a "Management's" (term used very losely!) offspring dies.
gtseraf - totally agree.
cattletruck - Having experienced the EU weather alot I must say I was always on my toes watching out and trying to read the cloud formations and vapour trail movements. THIS was often the only small indication of turbulence available, that would upset an otherwise pleasant flight service. Thankfully being in a widebody we were often above it (except in China where no Foreign carrier was to be above a local
) Now I'm not talking about the turbulence experienced often on NATS ot Nth Pacific. That's a very different scenario though has the same basic concepts.Many "youngen's" are not aware of these tell-tail signs to look out for nowdays... that goes worldwide and even moreso here in Australia, where the champ on my right is often on his/her first jet in the upper levels. Some listen to advice, some don't and their career progresses accordingly.
Aviation doesn't let you have your "oops mistakes" because you chose not to listen or learn, because you thought you knew better or it didn't seem right... That then becomes your reputation, which is all you can hang your hat on together with your log book, in this Industry, which is very small in this region.
So in closing, some great comments in the contributions above and yes I agree definately the minimum hours has decreased, dramatically and all you need to look at to confirm this are all the myryad of endless advertisments on the AFAP and job websites here and globally.
Are the hours right seat better quality now? Not here in Aust, no where near!
Last edited by Chocks Away; 28th Mar 2019 at 13:52.
Some countries have to put 200hr pilots in the right seat as their GA sectors are small and can't produce enough 2000hr pilots with charter or regional time to meet airline requirements. Get a CPL in the UK or India and there are very few entry level single engine or light twin jobs available, there are however jobs going in the low cost and airline sectors which have experienced considerable growth. Experienced pilots leaving the military won't be enough in number, so the new licence holder needs to be taken on.
Think of a pyramid with Australia having a large number of pilots in smaller aircraft at the bottom and a small number in airliners at the top, in many countries that gets inverted.
Think of a pyramid with Australia having a large number of pilots in smaller aircraft at the bottom and a small number in airliners at the top, in many countries that gets inverted.
I’m amazed that you seem to have such poor training departments in your airline that allow such poor calibre co pilots to be released onto line flying,
