CASA temporarily suspends all Boeing 737 MAX operations to/from Australia
steers the aircraft downwards with no indication or notification.
the procedures to disable this "undisclosed" system behavior are documented somewhere deep within their manuals, but it seems they "forgot" to tell anybody about this
Yes there is little to go on just yet, but what they do have seems very similar to the Lion Air accident.
Does anyone here have any MAX experience? How do we know that Boeing haven’t changed a system design that is now causing a problem that not even they know about?
Rudder hardovers ring a bell?
Does anyone here have any MAX experience? How do we know that Boeing haven’t changed a system design that is now causing a problem that not even they know about?
Rudder hardovers ring a bell?
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Good idea Eddie.
A CRM course I did in the Middle East comes to mind. Over and over agin we did the Kegworth crash. Anyways, this really cool Nigerian captain who stands about 7 feet, stood up and matter of factly says, if the crew was black we wouldn't have to sit through all these excuses for why the jet crashed. It would just be labelled pilot error. Funny thing ever at a CRM course. Everyone in stitches- white, black, brown and the colours of the rainbow.
A CRM course I did in the Middle East comes to mind. Over and over agin we did the Kegworth crash. Anyways, this really cool Nigerian captain who stands about 7 feet, stood up and matter of factly says, if the crew was black we wouldn't have to sit through all these excuses for why the jet crashed. It would just be labelled pilot error. Funny thing ever at a CRM course. Everyone in stitches- white, black, brown and the colours of the rainbow.
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Good idea Eddie.
A CRM course I did in the Middle East comes to mind. Over and over agin we did the Kegworth crash. Anyways, this really cool Nigerian captain who stands about 7 feet, stood up and matter of factly says, if the crew was black we wouldn't have to sit through all these excuses for why the jet crashed. It would just be labelled pilot error. Funny thing ever at a CRM course. Everyone in stitches- white, black, brown and the colours of the rainbow.
A CRM course I did in the Middle East comes to mind. Over and over agin we did the Kegworth crash. Anyways, this really cool Nigerian captain who stands about 7 feet, stood up and matter of factly says, if the crew was black we wouldn't have to sit through all these excuses for why the jet crashed. It would just be labelled pilot error. Funny thing ever at a CRM course. Everyone in stitches- white, black, brown and the colours of the rainbow.
Yep and that was his point . We sat through hours and hours of explanations, pointers and tips as if it were a miracle it happened to a white crew . Had of been a black crew no need to bother with a comprehensive CRM course . Pilot error , moving along .
Cultures, not race , affect flight deck performance.
The Aussie bogan for instance , prevalent in the low cost arena, can be a real shocker in on the flight deck .😀
Cultures, not race , affect flight deck performance.
The Aussie bogan for instance , prevalent in the low cost arena, can be a real shocker in on the flight deck .😀
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Yep and that was his point . We sat through hours and hours of explanations, pointers and tips as if it were a miracle it happened to a white crew . Had of been a black crew no need to bother with a comprehensive CRM course . Pilot error , moving along .
Cultures, not race , affect flight deck performance.
The Aussie bogan for instance , prevalent in the low cost arena, can be a real shocker in on the flight deck .😀
Cultures, not race , affect flight deck performance.
The Aussie bogan for instance , prevalent in the low cost arena, can be a real shocker in on the flight deck .😀
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Eddie,
I'll comment for you. Two have crashed one in Indonesia and one in Dark Africa both places are third world countries and crash aircraft on a regular basis.
Yanks are still flying them and don't get scared so easily, but yanks invented the aircraft and can fly stick and rudder in any case.
So the rest of the countries can sit and wring their hands rocking back and forward in a regular motion. How do the clowns now unground them ? " Oh a software update and a new pilot brief off you go " Follow the FAA and Manufacturer don't act with emotion deal with facts.
Would suit EU to ground anything not Airbus........
I'll comment for you. Two have crashed one in Indonesia and one in Dark Africa both places are third world countries and crash aircraft on a regular basis.
Yanks are still flying them and don't get scared so easily, but yanks invented the aircraft and can fly stick and rudder in any case.
So the rest of the countries can sit and wring their hands rocking back and forward in a regular motion. How do the clowns now unground them ? " Oh a software update and a new pilot brief off you go " Follow the FAA and Manufacturer don't act with emotion deal with facts.
Would suit EU to ground anything not Airbus........
Eddie,
I'll comment for you. Two have crashed one in Indonesia and one in Dark Africa both places are third world countries and crash aircraft on a regular basis.
Yanks are still flying them and don't get scared so easily, but yanks invented the aircraft and can fly stick and rudder in any case.
So the rest of the countries can sit and wring their hands rocking back and forward in a regular motion. How do the clowns now unground them ? " Oh a software update and a new pilot brief off you go " Follow the FAA and Manufacturer don't act with emotion deal with facts.
Would suit EU to ground anything not Airbus........
I'll comment for you. Two have crashed one in Indonesia and one in Dark Africa both places are third world countries and crash aircraft on a regular basis.
Yanks are still flying them and don't get scared so easily, but yanks invented the aircraft and can fly stick and rudder in any case.
So the rest of the countries can sit and wring their hands rocking back and forward in a regular motion. How do the clowns now unground them ? " Oh a software update and a new pilot brief off you go " Follow the FAA and Manufacturer don't act with emotion deal with facts.
Would suit EU to ground anything not Airbus........
Ya better I'm sure
Read the effing Boeing SB before opening your yaps. It says that once you have realized you have one or more alerts and nose down trimming behaviour, restrain the trim wheel by hand then turn the bloody thing off and trim manually. What could be simpler than that?
Eddie,
I'll comment for you. Two have crashed one in Indonesia and one in Dark Africa both places are third world countries and crash aircraft on a regular basis.
Yanks are still flying them and don't get scared so easily, but yanks invented the aircraft and can fly stick and rudder in any case.
So the rest of the countries can sit and wring their hands rocking back and forward in a regular motion. How do the clowns now unground them ? " Oh a software update and a new pilot brief off you go " Follow the FAA and Manufacturer don't act with emotion deal with facts.
Would suit EU to ground anything not Airbus........
I'll comment for you. Two have crashed one in Indonesia and one in Dark Africa both places are third world countries and crash aircraft on a regular basis.
Yanks are still flying them and don't get scared so easily, but yanks invented the aircraft and can fly stick and rudder in any case.
So the rest of the countries can sit and wring their hands rocking back and forward in a regular motion. How do the clowns now unground them ? " Oh a software update and a new pilot brief off you go " Follow the FAA and Manufacturer don't act with emotion deal with facts.
Would suit EU to ground anything not Airbus........
So new ones crashing seems strange.
So one would expect they last a few year longer.Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes
The following are significant events involving the airline or its subsidiares. The numbered events are those involving at least one airline passenger death where the aircraft flight had a direct or indirect role, and where at least one of the dead passengers was not a stowaway, hijacker, or saboteur. Only events since 1970 are included.
10 September 1972; Ethiopian Airlines Douglas DC3; ET-ABQ; en route to Gondar, Ethiopia:
15 September 1988; Ethiopian Airlines 737-200; ET-AJA; flight 604; Bahar Dar, Ethiopia: Bird strike ingested into engines.
12 March 1993; Ethiopian Airlines ATR 42-300; Dire Dawa, Ethiopia: Hijackers.
23 November 1996; Ethiopian Airlines 767-200ER; near Moroni, Comoros Islands: Hijackers.
25 January 2010; Ethiopian Airlines 737-800; Flight 409; near Beirut, Lebanon: ?
12 July 2013; Ethiopian Airlines 787-8; ET-AOP; flight 1354; London Heathrow Airport: ELT caught fire on ground.
10 March 2019; Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8; ET-AVJ; flight ET302; near Ejere, Ethiopia:?
Last edited by Bend alot; 13th Mar 2019 at 08:09.
Sure it's a simple act and that's why we have a qrh full of stuff like that but something like this shouldn't be occurring with a single failure point
As I understand the MCAS behaviour it trims in a ten second movement then stops for five seconds or whenever normal electric trim is selected on the control column trim switches.
The runaway stabiliser non normal condition statement reads:
Uncommanded stabilizer trim movement occurs CONTINUOUSLY.
That's how 737 pilots have been taught to recognise and correct a runaway stab. I have had one in a -300 and, while comparatively benign, it was not obvious what was going on with the stab until removing electric power per the checklist memory step. (It didn’t help)
I cannot agree with posters here who think it a simple matter for a crew to recognise the full scope of a problem when airspeed reliability is in doubt and the stick shaker is vibrating constantly. And an undocumented* feature is reacting to a bad sensor by doing its best to prevent a stall by nose-diving into the planet.
The stabiliser, while a secondary control, is very powerful-more so than the elevator. While fighting a grossly out-of-trim stab
might sound doable, but it may be possible in an acme screw jack design to bind the nut on the shaft and lock the stab in position until air loads can be relieved. The 737 is from that era of design.
*undocumented until after Lion of course, but how much sim training on inadvertent MCAS activation has been accomplished in the last five months.
All of this assumes facts not currently in evidence...it may have been something completely unrelated.
oh...4Holer? I have a US ATPL that I got in a box of Corn Flakes. I can’t say that its made me a better pilot but I'll take your word for it.
The runaway stabiliser non normal condition statement reads:
Uncommanded stabilizer trim movement occurs CONTINUOUSLY.
That's how 737 pilots have been taught to recognise and correct a runaway stab. I have had one in a -300 and, while comparatively benign, it was not obvious what was going on with the stab until removing electric power per the checklist memory step. (It didn’t help)
I cannot agree with posters here who think it a simple matter for a crew to recognise the full scope of a problem when airspeed reliability is in doubt and the stick shaker is vibrating constantly. And an undocumented* feature is reacting to a bad sensor by doing its best to prevent a stall by nose-diving into the planet.
The stabiliser, while a secondary control, is very powerful-more so than the elevator. While fighting a grossly out-of-trim stab
might sound doable, but it may be possible in an acme screw jack design to bind the nut on the shaft and lock the stab in position until air loads can be relieved. The 737 is from that era of design.
*undocumented until after Lion of course, but how much sim training on inadvertent MCAS activation has been accomplished in the last five months.
All of this assumes facts not currently in evidence...it may have been something completely unrelated.
oh...4Holer? I have a US ATPL that I got in a box of Corn Flakes. I can’t say that its made me a better pilot but I'll take your word for it.
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“IF” Flightradar24 data is to be believed, this doesn’t sound like an MCAS issue. The aircraft got to 250kts by 600’ and 380kts by 800’ (heights above airfield).
This really only indicates a pitch control problem or a pilot problem. They didn’t have a thrust problem.
Now, MCAS is not active with flaps extended - Lion Air did not have an MCAS issue until they retracted flaps. We don’t know whether Ethiopian retracted the flaps, of course, but it certainly appears that they were not flying normally prior to 500’, and one would normally have flaps out at that point (unless one had a pilot problem).
So until FDR data is analysed, this accident initally appears unrelated to Lion Air.
The F24 data I refer to is published in the main thread on R&N.
The other thing of note that happened to Lion Air was nuisance stick shaker from rotation. But I can’t fathom that this flight profile could result from a simple AOA failure causing nuisance stick shaker - even with a below average pilot. And that nuisance stick shaker presumably was not just a MAX related issue - the NG presumably suffers the same nuisance stick shaker potential with a faulty AOA. How many nuisance stick shakers on rotate have we heard of in NG’s? I also note that the Captain was a new Captain, but he apparently had 8000 hours (don’t know what type).
So the grounding to me sounds like overkill.
Yes, I think Boeing should fix the MCAS AOA input redundancy in the MAX. Well-trained pilots should be able to deal with that issue, but in this day and age we simply need to accept that not all pilots globally are well-trained, and in this day and age a new aircraft should not exhibit such unnecessary lack of redundancy. The grounding, even if overkill, will hopefully get the wheels moving pretty quickly in both Boeing and the FAA for an improvement to MAX MCAS redundancy.
But just to consider Sunfish’s “politics” argument: I think I read somewhere that Boeing would have implemented a software fix to MCAS by now if it wasn’t for the US government shutdown crippling the FAA’s ability to certify Boeing’s proposed “fix”, which was in turn caused by internal US politics over who should pay for a wall to stop the Mexicans ruining their country. So we can blame the Mexicans for the recent crash in Africa, to which CASA has responded by simply jumping on a global bandwagon simply to screw the Fijians, all the while allowing the Indonesian low cost carriers to continue flying here. Wow, our regulator has balls. Got it.
This really only indicates a pitch control problem or a pilot problem. They didn’t have a thrust problem.
Now, MCAS is not active with flaps extended - Lion Air did not have an MCAS issue until they retracted flaps. We don’t know whether Ethiopian retracted the flaps, of course, but it certainly appears that they were not flying normally prior to 500’, and one would normally have flaps out at that point (unless one had a pilot problem).
So until FDR data is analysed, this accident initally appears unrelated to Lion Air.
The F24 data I refer to is published in the main thread on R&N.
The other thing of note that happened to Lion Air was nuisance stick shaker from rotation. But I can’t fathom that this flight profile could result from a simple AOA failure causing nuisance stick shaker - even with a below average pilot. And that nuisance stick shaker presumably was not just a MAX related issue - the NG presumably suffers the same nuisance stick shaker potential with a faulty AOA. How many nuisance stick shakers on rotate have we heard of in NG’s? I also note that the Captain was a new Captain, but he apparently had 8000 hours (don’t know what type).
So the grounding to me sounds like overkill.
Yes, I think Boeing should fix the MCAS AOA input redundancy in the MAX. Well-trained pilots should be able to deal with that issue, but in this day and age we simply need to accept that not all pilots globally are well-trained, and in this day and age a new aircraft should not exhibit such unnecessary lack of redundancy. The grounding, even if overkill, will hopefully get the wheels moving pretty quickly in both Boeing and the FAA for an improvement to MAX MCAS redundancy.
But just to consider Sunfish’s “politics” argument: I think I read somewhere that Boeing would have implemented a software fix to MCAS by now if it wasn’t for the US government shutdown crippling the FAA’s ability to certify Boeing’s proposed “fix”, which was in turn caused by internal US politics over who should pay for a wall to stop the Mexicans ruining their country. So we can blame the Mexicans for the recent crash in Africa, to which CASA has responded by simply jumping on a global bandwagon simply to screw the Fijians, all the while allowing the Indonesian low cost carriers to continue flying here. Wow, our regulator has balls. Got it.
Last edited by Derfred; 13th Mar 2019 at 09:50.
Excellent spray indeed! 
Well it certainly doesn’t help when the VIPA president comes out and states that ‘VIPA (representing Virgin Group Pilots) continues to have the utmost confidence in the Boeing 737 and the rigorous training that Virgin Australia provides its pilots.”
The VIPA President then goes on to say “We look forward to its introduction at Virgin Australia as it brings outstanding commercial advantages to the airline and enhanced customer appeal”.
What about the considerable chance that there is an issue with the aircraft that has resulted in the deaths of 300 people? That doesn’t seem to matter because the aircraft brings commercial advantage? Crazy stuff.
The stupidity of these comments are confounded by the fact that the Chinese, Indonesian, Singaporean, UK CAA, CASA and other regulators have banned the aircraft from operating in their jurisdictions. But it’s not just the regulators that are concerned - the union representing pilots working for Aerolíneas Argentinaa has also banned its Pilots from operating Max aircraft.
The comments above from the VIPA President are obviously from the leader of a Union who is grossly out of touch with the industry. If the leader of the union is so out of touch - that is probably a reflection on the union as a whole.
RSo they’re now grounded in the US and Canada. Reports that the FAA have analysed initial data from the crash.
Washington Post.
The [FAA] made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today. This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision.”