Ethics in Union Representation
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Ethics in Union Representation
A former pilot union President appointed lead IR negotiator sitting opposite the pilots he once purported to represent seems largely to have gone without comment. Despite protests to the contrary, it was foretold that the ‘stream lead’ was actively involved in IR. Far from the traditional path of supervisory and training positions, this shifts the bar on acceptable conduct. If Little Napoleon’s outbursts are to be believed the ‘deal’ for the 787 saved the company up to 30%. It seems there is actually a payoff, this individual enjoys a leisure travel category that relegates very long serving senior pilots to inferior classes of travel. What other inducements will be forthcoming don't seem to matter either. 30 pieces of silver has a far more tangible value these days. “Notwithstanding the moral and ethical obligations of being representatives of fellow workers, the AIPA Committee which includes the Executive are required by the Fair Work Act to act with proper purpose in the interests of members……. Whilst the incumbent may see little problem with it, perhaps he too seeks a similar trajectory? In times of moral decay, leadership is hard to find. Perhaps it is time that representatives not only claim to act in good faith, but attest to do so in full view of their peers?
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Nice
Yes Indeed.
Seems the former AIPA president and now stream lead (is that into the face of his collegues?) enjoys executive first class staff travel privileges. Yes that’s staff travel.
Told he recently bumped a senior Captain back to economy on holidays. Not bad for a junior FO. Guess if you sell out your colleagues and morals it comes with benefits.
Makes you wonder what else he will receive for the upcoming negotiations also. Might already have it.
Interesting to note the objections from current AIPA executives about not wanting a conflict of interest agreement signed.
Regardless of its legality it makes you wonder that at the very least it has some moral benefit.
Terrible look to switch sides directly to negotiating against the very people you pretended to represent. Geez you’d want to be s*&$ hot on the line and in the simulator.No one likes a turn coat.
Seems the former AIPA president and now stream lead (is that into the face of his collegues?) enjoys executive first class staff travel privileges. Yes that’s staff travel.
Told he recently bumped a senior Captain back to economy on holidays. Not bad for a junior FO. Guess if you sell out your colleagues and morals it comes with benefits.
Makes you wonder what else he will receive for the upcoming negotiations also. Might already have it.
Interesting to note the objections from current AIPA executives about not wanting a conflict of interest agreement signed.
Regardless of its legality it makes you wonder that at the very least it has some moral benefit.
Terrible look to switch sides directly to negotiating against the very people you pretended to represent. Geez you’d want to be s*&$ hot on the line and in the simulator.No one likes a turn coat.
Last edited by knobbycobby; 20th Feb 2019 at 10:08. Reason: Spelling
Geez you’d want to be s*&$ hot on the line and in the simulator.No one likes a turn coat.
Are you seriously suggesting that check pilots or simulator instructors would deliberately turn up the heat on someone they didn't like by crucifying him in the simulator or in flight simply because of internal politics? Maybe in some overseas cultures but surely not in Australia?
I agree , I think it’s more likely that one would find themselves drinking on their own on over nights. I believe that AIPA also top up the salary of the incumbent president which IMO makes it even more morally bankrupt to change sides after such a short time. The bottom line is that AIPA has just become another arm of Qantas management.
Folks,
President of the union to a senior executive of Qantas is a well worn path, going right back to Bert Ritchie, who was GM when I first got a job with QF.
But even I must admit this one is "interesting", all the others have already been Captains. However, it isn't war, if the person is ambitious, what's wrong with that --- the members can always vote any deal down, or, indeed, being a current pilot may be an advantage in minimizing the historically adversarial approach of whatever the QF industrial relations office is now called,has always taken to pilot T&Cs.
And by "historical" I mean right back to the early history of the company -- by the 1960s there were textbooks citing QF and BHP as examples of how not to manage staff.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Two of us, one domestic and one AFAP/OSB started working with DCA on a revision of ANO 48 in 1968 ---- and it still ain't done ---- does this qualify for the Guinness Book Of Records. 50 years??
President of the union to a senior executive of Qantas is a well worn path, going right back to Bert Ritchie, who was GM when I first got a job with QF.
But even I must admit this one is "interesting", all the others have already been Captains. However, it isn't war, if the person is ambitious, what's wrong with that --- the members can always vote any deal down, or, indeed, being a current pilot may be an advantage in minimizing the historically adversarial approach of whatever the QF industrial relations office is now called,has always taken to pilot T&Cs.
And by "historical" I mean right back to the early history of the company -- by the 1960s there were textbooks citing QF and BHP as examples of how not to manage staff.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Two of us, one domestic and one AFAP/OSB started working with DCA on a revision of ANO 48 in 1968 ---- and it still ain't done ---- does this qualify for the Guinness Book Of Records. 50 years??
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CM went from Aipa President to chief pilot in a matter of days didn’t he? I don’t remember a single mention on pprune of that. Chief pilot is a much more senior position than whatever NS is doing.
WK went from aipa president to management in a few months if I recall correctly?
Many current and former management pilots pilots were either aipa execs or on the aipa com. The reality is that people’s interests can also change over time.
NS has been out of aipa fot 2-3 years now. He was there when the LH EBA received 82% approval. If a majority of pilots hasn’t voted yes then that deal wouldn’t have happened. At the end of the day, don’t vote for whatever EBA proposal comes your way if you don’t like it.
WK went from aipa president to management in a few months if I recall correctly?
Many current and former management pilots pilots were either aipa execs or on the aipa com. The reality is that people’s interests can also change over time.
NS has been out of aipa fot 2-3 years now. He was there when the LH EBA received 82% approval. If a majority of pilots hasn’t voted yes then that deal wouldn’t have happened. At the end of the day, don’t vote for whatever EBA proposal comes your way if you don’t like it.
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Ethics Must Rule
Folks,
But even I must admit this one is "interesting", all the others have already been Captains. However, it isn't war, if the person is ambitious, what's wrong with that --- the members can always vote any deal down, or, indeed, being a current pilot may be an advantage in minimizing the historically adversarial approach of whatever the QF industrial relations office is now called,has always taken to pilot T&Cs.
But even I must admit this one is "interesting", all the others have already been Captains. However, it isn't war, if the person is ambitious, what's wrong with that --- the members can always vote any deal down, or, indeed, being a current pilot may be an advantage in minimizing the historically adversarial approach of whatever the QF industrial relations office is now called,has always taken to pilot T&Cs.
Let the company know. From now and into the future, if an ex-AIPA Executive member is in league with Qantas, to any EA, then it will be a No Vote on ethical industrial principles. That should keep the alleged low life turn-coats away from the corridors of Power … and maybe some on the AIPA Executive from allegedly selling out their fellow Pilots! An interesting concept?
Justin Beaver. NS may well be out of AIPA, however many of us ask, was NS also out of AIPA and/or acting in a more alleged self-interest manner when he pushed the deal for Pilots to lose Night Credits, Bidding Rights and Overtime on the B-787? The industrial lines become very blurred with such events!
Simply stated, if one desires to run for AIPA Office, one should also be willing to sign a Disclosure Agreement (DA) that one will not accept any office in Qantas Flight Management or an opposing Industrial Position or Employment for a specified time limit (7 years). There can be No Argument otherwise! Standard business practice nowadays!
However, it will take the long haul Pilots to have a unified consensus on such DA's and focus on future Ethical Outcomes if this is to be achieved.
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Colonial,
Let’s recap the EBA process.
1. The aipa eba team that does not include the President is endorsed by the aipa committee, which itself was elected by the aipa membership. Looks pretty democratic to me so far.
2. That same eba team that does not include NS reached an in principle deal Qantas that gets presented to the aipa com. The that deal doesn’t change terms and conditions on exisiting fleets aside from signifantly improved allowances and some small improvements to home transport and lounge access. Yes it also contained an 18 month wage freeze but so did the dozens of other EBAs across the the Qantas group. It included terms and conditions for the 787 that met a business case. The 787 is currently a much more popular choice than the A330 and it doesn’t even have a Sydney base yet. All the Capts and FOs on the 787 seem pretty happy so far from discussions with them. Your comment about the ‘loss of bidding rights’ is interesting. You clearly prefer super seniority for rosters over the 787’s PSN - so while that might be a loss to you, I’d say many people see it as a win. Yes the 787 terms removed 4 pilot night credits and kept some for 2 and 3 pilot ops. The 787 also has a higher hourly rate than the 380. This was all presented upfront to everyone who endorsed and voted on this eba.
3. This deal was put to the elected aipa com which endorsed it on from what I understand was something like a 90% basis. Where in this process so far has there been no democracy or some unilateral act by NS?
4. The proposed deal was then voted up by 82% of the long haul pilots. Short haul pilots were ineligible to vote. If they were, I would guess it would have been closer to 90%.
That’s democracy. If you don’t like it then run fot aipa office on your platform. At what point in this process for NS unilaterally Impose anything on the pilots? Every stage of the process involved a significant majority of the com and the pilots approving the deal.
If NS has the super powers of being able to impose his will on other people then I’m not surprised Qantas offered him a job!!!
Not everyone shares Rafed De’s BLF-style militant union views on who should be able to take on new roles. Borghetti went from Qantas to Virgin. The head of the AFL players association has gone into management at the AFL. FAAA officials have gone to work tor Qantas management. This kind of thing happens all the time in life.
Let’s recap the EBA process.
1. The aipa eba team that does not include the President is endorsed by the aipa committee, which itself was elected by the aipa membership. Looks pretty democratic to me so far.
2. That same eba team that does not include NS reached an in principle deal Qantas that gets presented to the aipa com. The that deal doesn’t change terms and conditions on exisiting fleets aside from signifantly improved allowances and some small improvements to home transport and lounge access. Yes it also contained an 18 month wage freeze but so did the dozens of other EBAs across the the Qantas group. It included terms and conditions for the 787 that met a business case. The 787 is currently a much more popular choice than the A330 and it doesn’t even have a Sydney base yet. All the Capts and FOs on the 787 seem pretty happy so far from discussions with them. Your comment about the ‘loss of bidding rights’ is interesting. You clearly prefer super seniority for rosters over the 787’s PSN - so while that might be a loss to you, I’d say many people see it as a win. Yes the 787 terms removed 4 pilot night credits and kept some for 2 and 3 pilot ops. The 787 also has a higher hourly rate than the 380. This was all presented upfront to everyone who endorsed and voted on this eba.
3. This deal was put to the elected aipa com which endorsed it on from what I understand was something like a 90% basis. Where in this process so far has there been no democracy or some unilateral act by NS?
4. The proposed deal was then voted up by 82% of the long haul pilots. Short haul pilots were ineligible to vote. If they were, I would guess it would have been closer to 90%.
That’s democracy. If you don’t like it then run fot aipa office on your platform. At what point in this process for NS unilaterally Impose anything on the pilots? Every stage of the process involved a significant majority of the com and the pilots approving the deal.
If NS has the super powers of being able to impose his will on other people then I’m not surprised Qantas offered him a job!!!
Not everyone shares Rafed De’s BLF-style militant union views on who should be able to take on new roles. Borghetti went from Qantas to Virgin. The head of the AFL players association has gone into management at the AFL. FAAA officials have gone to work tor Qantas management. This kind of thing happens all the time in life.
Last edited by Justin. Beaver; 21st Feb 2019 at 01:58.
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Not everyone shares Rafed De’s BLF-style militant union views on who should be able to take on new roles.
Candidly if the individual concerned had proceeded to do to the BLF what has transpired here, then the 'solution' might be a little more akin to what you are alleging. Be careful Justin.
This kind of thing happens all the time in life.
As Capt Colonial eloquently posited:
Justin Beaver. NS may well be out of AIPA, however many of us ask, was NS also out of AIPA and/or acting in a more alleged self-interest manner when he pushed the deal for Pilots to lose Night Credits, Bidding Rights and Overtime on the B-787? The industrial lines become very blurred with such events! Simply stated, if one desires to run for AIPA Office, one should also be willing to sign a Disclosure Agreement (DA) that one will not accept any office in Qantas Flight Management or an opposing Industrial Position or Employment for a specified time limit (7 years). There can be No Argument otherwise! Standard business practice nowadays!
Will the incumbent President be so inclined to show leadership and ethics and require a statement of good faith. starting with his own?
Morals and ethics matter. The representative body could easily simply decline to discuss any pertinent matters with that individual.
Perhaps the absence of leadership from a representative body is recognition that the good faith to act in member's interests, is just on paper..
Last edited by Rated De; 21st Feb 2019 at 03:10.
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Rated, i think it’s you and knobbycobby who need to be careful. Especially any suggestion that training and checking pilots at Qantas should be failing people for industrial reasons (see knobby’s post above). Such behaviour would be illegal and would expose someone to serious repercussions.
Your suggestions that he somehow didn’t do a good job aren’t supported by the evidence - the most important piece being the overwhelming support for the main eba negotiated during his tenure and subsequent popularity of the 787.
And such things absolutely have happened before. Going from aipa President to chief pilot is a far more powerful position. The chief pilot has much more sway over negotiations than any company negotiator.
Your suggestions that he somehow didn’t do a good job aren’t supported by the evidence - the most important piece being the overwhelming support for the main eba negotiated during his tenure and subsequent popularity of the 787.
And such things absolutely have happened before. Going from aipa President to chief pilot is a far more powerful position. The chief pilot has much more sway over negotiations than any company negotiator.
Last edited by Justin. Beaver; 21st Feb 2019 at 03:46.
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and, I with others took over in 1974 with a comprehensive study, etc plus at that time thee was the ~Bader' report from the UK.
That report is still relevant today and reports from the intervening period substantiated all it found.
Agreed, Book of Records though it took 50 years to duplicate highway between Mel-Syd, 60 years Bne-Syd; started talking about a second airport for Sydney about then and about 50 plus years later it may, repeat may be finished in another 9 plus years.
HKG demolished an island and built a new airport with bridges, railways and highways in around 6 years.
That report is still relevant today and reports from the intervening period substantiated all it found.
Agreed, Book of Records though it took 50 years to duplicate highway between Mel-Syd, 60 years Bne-Syd; started talking about a second airport for Sydney about then and about 50 plus years later it may, repeat may be finished in another 9 plus years.
HKG demolished an island and built a new airport with bridges, railways and highways in around 6 years.
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The part Nathan took pushing the night credit issue is not insignificant. This is, however, one thing I do not blame that incompetent CEO bully boy for. QF pilots DID vote for it. I can't for the life of me understand why, the one person who I have spoken to who admitted to voting for it, sheeted the blame down to Nathan and a couple of notable others pushing a company line saying the 787 would not go to Qf if Pilots didn't take the 787 flying on that offer. So they likely lied. Not like Qf have never done that before. Regardless, and I suspect mainly due to the atrocious conditions on the 737 - it got up. People will despise it in time, lives WILL be shortened because of it (like mesothelioma it will take decades to damage) but it did get voted in so with only a very few caveats, Pilots have themselves to blame.
Where Mr 'I Want A Job In Canberra' Safe's behaviour is unconscionable on ANY level is that his newest little stunt (gee I had to watch that spelling) is also aimed squarely at destroying the entire GA sector in Australia. He's actively attempting to destroy QF Pilot careers but arguably, he's done that before. Setting about destroying the careers of every future Australian pilot is a VERY new development.
Nathan would likely argue that if not him then someone else. In a dog eat dog world the Nuremberg Defence might just legally squeak through, but I hope he enjoys eating with equally popular Capt Discrepancy wherever he goes. In Nathan's world, ten pieces of silver is obviously an awful lot of money.
Where Mr 'I Want A Job In Canberra' Safe's behaviour is unconscionable on ANY level is that his newest little stunt (gee I had to watch that spelling) is also aimed squarely at destroying the entire GA sector in Australia. He's actively attempting to destroy QF Pilot careers but arguably, he's done that before. Setting about destroying the careers of every future Australian pilot is a VERY new development.
Nathan would likely argue that if not him then someone else. In a dog eat dog world the Nuremberg Defence might just legally squeak through, but I hope he enjoys eating with equally popular Capt Discrepancy wherever he goes. In Nathan's world, ten pieces of silver is obviously an awful lot of money.
NS may well be out of AIPA, however many of us ask, was NS also out of AIPA and/or acting in a more alleged self-interest manner when he pushed the deal for Pilots to lose Night Credits, Bidding Rights and Overtime on the B-787? The industrial lines become very blurred with such events.
.And yet NS took the 1st available opportunity for upgrade to B787 FO on the very conditions he Championed and an overwhelming majority voted YES for.
The thread was about an ex AIPA President And FO who now has F11 staff travel that trumps a Captain.
He’s not a Captain. Be drinking alone I’d agree.
Most pilots don’t consider this good form to put it mildly. It’s embarrasing trying to argue it’s ok.
Yes Wayne Kearns went on to work for Qantas but it wasn’t to become the lead company negotiatior right away. Wayne spent a lot of the time in various manager roles before becoming deputy Chief Pilot. Wayne and those before him won and protected a lot of conditions whilst at AIPA.
Manning achieved a lot for pilots also. Under his leadership AIPA achieved 5:30 MDC and a lot of improved conditions for commuters, a lot of improvements to MGH too. Dixon lured him to Chief Pilot as he would have been too effective as AIPA leader when he needed to start Jetstar.
Good deal for the A330 at classic plus 5% for a smaller airplane. Presidents Duggan and Jackson also achieving big improvements to MGH and also pay for the A380. Strong EA teams under their leadership.
Cant recall them falling for a lesser EA that was needed to secure airplanes.
Safe won no extra conditions during his leadership. Traded away protections of night credits and overtime. The biggest trades in the contract.
Yes the hourly rate may be higher but those with a year two understanding of mathematics can work out it doesn’t compensate for the loss of overtime.if your take home pay is less, the hourly rate is just a number. Whilst he’s not entirely responsible, the negotiating team under his leadership traded away the most in AIPAs history. It may have been voted up 80% but that doesnt mean it was a good outcome nor or a good deal. Maybe a very good sell granted. The rosters shown were best case scenario showing very little long range flying. Working harder for less. The Ex President did sell the EA for Qantas extremely hard so perhaps he has earned the first class ticket.
For all their flaws Wayne Kearns and Chris Manning were great AIPA leaders who won and protected conditions for pilots.
They were earmarked by Qantas because they presided over EAs that won big improvements. They were formidable opponents and better on the company side.
Credit must also go to the negotiating teams they lead.
NS is not in the same league as a Kearns or Manning. Great salesman for the Qantas agenda as AIPA President and rewarded accordingly.
Nothing more.
He’s not a Captain. Be drinking alone I’d agree.
Most pilots don’t consider this good form to put it mildly. It’s embarrasing trying to argue it’s ok.
Yes Wayne Kearns went on to work for Qantas but it wasn’t to become the lead company negotiatior right away. Wayne spent a lot of the time in various manager roles before becoming deputy Chief Pilot. Wayne and those before him won and protected a lot of conditions whilst at AIPA.
Manning achieved a lot for pilots also. Under his leadership AIPA achieved 5:30 MDC and a lot of improved conditions for commuters, a lot of improvements to MGH too. Dixon lured him to Chief Pilot as he would have been too effective as AIPA leader when he needed to start Jetstar.
Good deal for the A330 at classic plus 5% for a smaller airplane. Presidents Duggan and Jackson also achieving big improvements to MGH and also pay for the A380. Strong EA teams under their leadership.
Cant recall them falling for a lesser EA that was needed to secure airplanes.
Safe won no extra conditions during his leadership. Traded away protections of night credits and overtime. The biggest trades in the contract.
Yes the hourly rate may be higher but those with a year two understanding of mathematics can work out it doesn’t compensate for the loss of overtime.if your take home pay is less, the hourly rate is just a number. Whilst he’s not entirely responsible, the negotiating team under his leadership traded away the most in AIPAs history. It may have been voted up 80% but that doesnt mean it was a good outcome nor or a good deal. Maybe a very good sell granted. The rosters shown were best case scenario showing very little long range flying. Working harder for less. The Ex President did sell the EA for Qantas extremely hard so perhaps he has earned the first class ticket.
For all their flaws Wayne Kearns and Chris Manning were great AIPA leaders who won and protected conditions for pilots.
They were earmarked by Qantas because they presided over EAs that won big improvements. They were formidable opponents and better on the company side.
Credit must also go to the negotiating teams they lead.
NS is not in the same league as a Kearns or Manning. Great salesman for the Qantas agenda as AIPA President and rewarded accordingly.
Nothing more.
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Given Qantas is headquartered in Sydney Australia, will the individual be 'allocated' a Sydney position?