Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

AFAP go rogue

Old 23rd Jan 2019, 03:56
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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I don't have any particular points aside from actually doing the numbers for my own interest. If JQ pay can make the huge step up to the mainline pay then great for them.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 04:00
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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But what's the point of comparing one airline to another when the battle lies between a pilot group that looks to be pushing back and an industry that has enjoyed a very long period of prosperity due to the denigration of the profession. I can see that comparing one EBA against another to find who is getting the worst deal somewhat of an own goal.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 04:02
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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As I said, I was comparing for my own interest with all of the other discussion above not making the answer very clear to me. I don't think any of the basic calculations are top secret to anyone. They're public documents.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 04:24
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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So I donít think itís totally outlandish for them to ask for the gap to be closed,( nor do I necessarily think it will be), but if you donít ask you wonít get
To quote myself... and restate my point.

Again, best of luck to the JQ peoples.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 05:17
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Im sure no pilot at JQ, 787 or 320, seriously entertains the idea of achieving QF equivalent remuneration. Not that their fight is just about money...but when you delve down into the documents (and see their rosters) you can see that JQ pilots are working a hell of a lot harder (around a third harder) for base pay while still earning (roughly) a third less.

But good on AFAP and the JQ pilot group for trying to move off the bottom of the barrel towards an industry average. Even that will be a very steep hill to climb, requiring lots of cohesion, energy and determined resolve.

All Aussie pilots should be completely behind that. Go for it!

PG
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 05:18
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ExtraShot View Post

I donít have many problems with the QF LH contract, its a fairly healthy one,

Are you high ? QF LH Pilots are being paid less than Southwest 737 pilots (Itís a low cost carrier). Australian pilots are paying more taxes. Hopefully your union has a more accurate comparative proposal.

Originally Posted by ExtraShot View Post
but this is patently wrong.Read the JQ contract a bit further, just a few paragraphs down is all, and youíll see Extra flying allowances, Highline allowances, day off payments etc. Youíre making your statement quoting the JQ base rate against a fully fattened up QF rate, at a 175hr divisor no less, which is equivalent to the Jetstar Pilots doing 90 plus hours per month.

There is a difference but itís nowhere near as big as youíre saying.
On the other hand - At least you read more than one page, perhaps youíre teachable.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 06:27
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the differing expectations of time for promotion. Qantas has been 20 years to command until very recently, slowly dropping back toward the long term expectation of 15 years. There were many (around 10%) that took a leave of absence to gain a command or an FO upgrade in the Middle East & Asia. Many junior QF longhaul pilots genuinely faced the prospect of redundancy for many years

Time to command in Jetstar when growth was ramping up? Five years, and certainly less than ten years. Getting to the LHS of a at least an A320 / B737 provides career protection that an FO or SO doesn't have.

Very few are complaining that they are the LHS when some of their ab initio training buddies are only just a window seat.

Everything is a tradeoff, there is always a price to pay. You can have rapid promotion or terms and conditions, but you can't have both.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 08:27
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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QF LH Pilots are being paid less than Southwest 737 pilots (It’s a low cost carrier). Australian pilots are paying more taxes. Hopefully your union has a more accurate comparative proposal.
That is true. When purchasing power parity deflates the gross number it is by a substantive amount.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 00:46
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JPJP View Post

Are you high ? QF LH Pilots are being paid less than Southwest 737 pilots (Itís a low cost carrier). Australian pilots are paying more taxes. Hopefully your union has a more accurate comparative proposal.



On the other hand - At least you read more than one page, perhaps youíre teachable.
Thatís cute. Perhaps you can teach me about an Agreement anywhere in Australia the provides for currency movements relative to the US dollar, their industryís US counterparts, or respective differences tax rates between here and the US? Then point me toward a better Pilot contract anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere?

It it seems the 2500 odd who currently work for QF arenít in a rush to leave, there are currently hundreds trying to get in, and now add another 1000 plus JQ pilots who think those conditions are worth asking for as well. More fool them.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 02:23
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed. Benchmarking against a foreign pilot's remuneration would be scoffed at by a FW Commissioner.

If that was a plausible tactic management would be trying to benchmark our pay against the pilots in Angola, Bangladesh or Cambodia!

As the gold standard pilot contract, QF mainline pilot negotiation tactics will never be able to rely on benchmarking for contract improvements. Its obviously a different story for all the other pilot groups in Australia in attempting improvements.

PG
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 04:22
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Popgun View Post
Indeed. Benchmarking against a foreign pilot's remuneration would be scoffed at by a FW Commissioner.

If that was a plausible tactic management would be trying to benchmark our pay against the pilots in Angola, Bangladesh or Cambodia!

As the gold standard pilot contract, QF mainline pilot negotiation tactics will never be able to rely on benchmarking for contract improvements. Its obviously a different story for all the other pilot groups in Australia in attempting improvements.

PG
After the lockout at the Determination Qantas claimed the QF pilots were the highest paid pilots in the world. That did not stop the Full Bench awarding payrises of 3% per annum (average) over the next 3 years. Mind you everyone stop listening to Olivier Wirth years ago.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 06:08
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Aus
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Any truth to the rumour that AIPA didn’t commence negotiations prior to the middle of January as required by the Jetstar agreement? Seems like AIPA have gone rogue.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 20:31
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by leakyboats View Post
Any truth to the rumour that AIPA didnít commence negotiations prior to the middle of January as required by the Jetstar agreement?
Looks about right.

EA UPDATE

Your bargaining team will meet with the Company on 7th February to kick off official meetings. Darren Fielder (AIPA Vice President, Group Airlines) and Andrew Ward will once again be leading the negotiations. Joining them will be AIPA Committee of Management members Brent Rooke and Phil Peatfield.

We would also like to welcome Andrew Robins, Dominic Corcoran and Simon Gould who all bring a diverse range of experience and have volunteered their time to assist the EA team during this important process. As always, the EA team will be supported by the vast experience of the AIPA Legal and Industrial team, the Qantas long and short haul bargaining teams (including previous negotiators) and external specialists.

The team is currently finalising our list of issues. We will not be presenting a ďlog of claimsĒ to the Company as we are adopting an interest-based bargaining approach. Our approach will involve presenting and discussing with the Company the issues members have identified in the survey as issues they seek to resolve and improve upon. Bargaining will be about finding solutions with the Company regarding issues raised.

The EA team will send out updates following every bargaining meeting so please look out for one following the 7th of February.

If you wish to contact any of the bargaining team, please email us at [email protected].

JQ EA Team
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 08:34
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Latest AFAP email informing us the company is going for reduced days of! The company tell us they are working on work life balance etc. B/S on that.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 08:45
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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What are your current days off?
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 22:03
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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132 Calender year.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 23:39
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Not terrible, assume annual leave on top? I think VARA, Tiger and QF have less but I’m not sure. Wouldn’t be giving up any conditions or days off.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 03:43
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
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In this environment you guys should be getting an obvious improvement in lifestyle, or an obvious improvement in remuneration, or a slightly less impressive improvement in both, but giving up any of either should be off the table from the start.
What is the feeling on the line as to which is most important? Lifestyle ( read sleep), or cash?
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 09:50
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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73qanda there are still people who believe the sky is falling and the industry is about to go into total collapse if we fail to give away our lifestyle and pay simultaneously, but I think the attitude is changing and fast and many are saying both are important. Theyíve seen every cent of our pay and conditions surrendered in recent times wind up in our fearless leaders bonus; enough is enough!
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 07:26
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Aus
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While our team continues to review AFAP’s claims carefully, we explained that the 13 key claims relating to wages would add almost 50 per cent to our pilot labor wage cost, which is simply unsustainable.
Message to Dean

A 50% pay rise puts my wage just north of $200,000. Have a look at what they pay widebody first officers over at VA and QF. While you’re at it, have a look at how many days off they get in comparison.

If you think my union is being unreasonable, you need to have a hard look outside your head office bubble and visit the coalface.

You can jam 3%
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