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AFAP go rogue

Old 22nd Jan 2019, 09:22
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Justin. Beaver View Post
.... vitriol directed at the same people over and over and over again
Whilst I do not see RDís posts as full of vitriol, if Ďthe same peopleí werenít such self aggrandising, self enriching and completely incompetent managerial numptyís, RD wouldnít be able to make the same accusations Ďover and overí - would he? Iím sure Iíve read something about guns and messengers somewhere....
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 11:28
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
Just so I get this correct, a year 1 mainline 787 Capt earns $328 an hour. 6.5 bid periods per year at say 175 hours equals $372,000 a year. You say that the AFAP contract has the 787 pilots earning $223,000 (40% less). Can someone please confirm that as I find it hard to believe.
Looks like it’s true.

If you add to your calculation for the Qantas Captain; STACR of ~$4000 and pay for sims, security and EP’s (passive credits) ~$11,000, you hit $387,000

According to the JQ EA (which I am no expert on) a 787 Capt there gets $228,927. So that is just less than 60% of a Qantas Captain’s pay on the same plane. If you look at year 4 pay it’s less than 55% of QF.

So AFAP have a MASSIVE task ahead of them if they want to get equivalent pay for JQ and QF 787 crew, about a 70% pay increase!!

That being said, I fully support them and I hope they get it, or close the gap as best as possible because it’s good for the whole industry.

But for those carrying on about how useless AIPA is, just take a look at those figures, realise how good you have it and pull your head in.

Last edited by Beer Baron; 22nd Jan 2019 at 12:29.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 19:37
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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The saying of "Biting the hand that feeds you", comes to mind, Justin and the tables have turned now, with no "untapped labour market" to get 457's for the global pilot shortage; huge drop in applicant experience levels; pending retirements; Cadet Schools that can't get off the ground; aging and breaking fleet... the list goes on.
As the established airlines in Europe and the USA are fast learning, globalised labour works both ways.
They have also realised, albeit it belatedly, that their traditional adversarial employee relations model is not going to continue to attract sufficient applicants.

There is, rest assured, a lot of navel gazing in airline administrative offices world wide as the dawning realisation that unlimited supply of pilots is a thing of the past.
In the USA, the 1,500 hour rule is sighted by airlines, in a classical denial as the reason for the shortage, yet it is their own behaviour that actually, when combined with declining demographics (higher retirement rates) created the problem.
Faced with terms and conditions repeatedly hacked by aggressive management, huge self funded training costs and poor returns on a person's investment in both time and money, many potential pilots never even started the journey.

As Herb Kelleher remarked,

'A company is stronger if bound by love, rather than by fear'

Remuneration is part of the equation, airline management have hacked into labour unit costs with vigour. Respect for all staff, concern for well being and a shared vision that is lived were the bits of Southwest airlines like Ryan Air and Jetstar didn't bother with, yet they actually cost nothing. This is why although the labour unit cost at Ryan Air is lower than Southwest, the TFP at Southwest is higher.

Sincerity can't be faked, thus to dismantle whole offices and procedures all designed to keep the jack boot on the throat of pilots, engineers or ramp staff is no easy task. This takes time if there is an appetite for change.
At Qantas with Mr Oldmeadow dug in like a tick and a huge headcount in HR/IR this requires strong leadership to undo. Little Napoleon is not big enough to do that job. Fish rot from the head, he has set the tone for executive communication norms for over a decade.

Thus, given the shortage grows daily, in the short term, the only way airlines will attract an increased number of applicants with less global supply is to increase remuneration. That Qantas have attempted to induce supply with the expected responses, like flying schools and quietly lobbied for skill shortage visas is amusing as it has not done anything to alleviate the shortage. That the AFAP recognise it, the pilots recognise it and indeed worldwide the industry knows it, is encouraging.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 20:08
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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5 stages of grief/loss:

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and accepatance.

Itís obvious that the airline industry are at stage one. When these CEOs start throwing the toys out of the pram, then weíll know weíre getting somewhere. Iíd be poking them with every stick I had if I were the unions! GO AFAP!
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 21:21
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Camelsquadron:
In the end, its all about self interest and greed on both sides of the fence.]
When airline pilots are involved, add envy and snobbery to the mix.

Australian Airline management have proven themselves masters at employing those last two vices with devastating effect.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 21:27
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Management view of pilots , over paid, underworked and oversexed.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 21:41
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bushells1957 View Post
Surely the B787 deal in the last LH EBA will go down in history as one of the most appalling sell outs of pilots ever.The hard won conditions that since 1966 have given a reasonable work/life/pay balance were thrown away.

The deal should have never been put to the vote or put to the vote with the recommendation it be rejected. The scare tactics put forward by AIPA were a disgrace when a better deal was obviously available. I am sure management could not believe the gullibility of pilots when it was voted up Ė high fives all round.

Is it correct that at least one involved from the union side has now got their reward with a company job? Thirty pieces of silver for Judas?


The next EBA must surely focus on repairing the damage to the LH contract or the future is very bleak. If people want rapid promotion with second rate pay and conditions they can work for one of the low cost carriers. Pilots want a work/life/pay balance that is sustainable for the long term.AIPA should be about dragging up pay & conditions, not dragging them down in a race to the bottom.
Well summed up.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:34
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bushells1957 View Post
The deal should have never been put to the vote or put to the vote with the recommendation it be rejected. The scare tactics put forward by AIPA were a disgrace when a better deal was obviously available. I am sure management could not believe the gullibility of pilots when it was voted up Ė high fives all round.

Is it correct that at least one involved from the union side has now got their reward with a company job? Thirty pieces of silver for Judas?
The AFAP is not immune from this type of thing either, 717 pilots had the rug pulled out from under them when the first real offer was made by their company. PIA was immediately abandoned without any consultation with the pilots, and with that any bargaining power was lost. The rumour was that someone was trying to ascend to a certain throne...

Good on the AFAP for (having the appearance of) having teeth, but by golly, hold them to account and don't let them be talked out of this aggressive stance. Contact your union officer in writing and ask some very probing questions about their intentions, make it known that you intend to use their response against them in the future if need be, and if it is a membership drive, may it be the end of them!
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:42
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the B787 deal in the last LH EBA will go down in history as one of the most appalling sell outs of pilots ever.
Yet it is 70% more money than the only other 787 contract in the country.

What an an utterly stupid and ignorant comment.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:49
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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The “82% Mugs” comment reeks of born to rule entitlement. Similar to HRC’s “Deplorables” categorisation in the US of A. As for the impossibility of commuting - no shortage of takers for that option in the Per LH Base.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 00:14
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Yet it is 70% more money than the only other 787 contract in the country.
I donít have many problems with the QF LH contract, its a fairly healthy one, but this is patently wrong.

Read the JQ contract a bit further, just a few paragraphs down is all, and youíll see Extra flying allowances, Highline allowances, day off payments etc. Youíre making your statement quoting the JQ base rate against a fully fattened up QF rate, at a 175hr divisor no less, which is equivalent to the Jetstar Pilots doing 90 plus hours per month.

There is a difference but itís nowhere near as big as youíre saying.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 00:27
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GWhizz View Post
Good on the AFAP for (having the appearance of) having teeth, but by golly, hold them to account and don't let them be talked out of this aggressive stance. Contact your union officer in writing and ask some very probing questions about their intentions, make it known that you intend to use their response against them in the future if need be, and if it is a membership drive, may it be the end of them!
This.

It doesnít take teeth to submit a wild log of claims, any fool can do that. Itís what comes later that counts. That takes a strong negotiating body and a strong support base. Only time will tell if either exists. It also takes smarts - do we have smarts? Are AFAP willing to work with AIPA on this? One would think that would be smart.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 00:45
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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As much as Iíd like to see the unions work together, why would the feds even bother?

AIPA has less than 10% of the pilot group (80) at best. They have not submitted a log of claims. Have not done a survey to their members, and the reps are puppets to the com.

Yes, if youíre mainline AIPA is the main game.

Good on the feds. Theyíve got the experience, the backend support, the resources and the pilot group numbers to do something good here.

Lets all eat cake



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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 01:00
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Theyíve got the experience, the backend support, the resources and the pilot group numbers to do something good here.
They also have a a close eye on the cost to benefit (to the AFAP) ratio. They will be keen to get some runs on he board as quickly and as cheaply as possible. They are not as far removed from those we fight as they would have us believe, the only difference being the fact we pay them for the privilege. Itís time to be very definite about whoís the boss as the trajectory of the industry depends on this and other EBAs currently under renewal.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 01:19
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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This thread should be renamed ďBeavers and Camels go RogueĒ.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 01:59
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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ExtraShot, I acknowledge that I don’t have a good working knowledge of the JQ EA and I stated as much in my original post. There are definitely additions there that I have not included such as you listed. However the QF figure also does not include many additions such as ADTA/ODTA, working divisor +5, overtime (yes there is still overtime in some circumstances on the 787).
The 175 hour figure used is based on the actual current divisor in all bases. I don’t know what hours the JQ guys are doing.

The the difference may not be 70% but it’s pretty sizeable.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 02:21
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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So, a current first year QF 787 Capt is earning something very close to $390,000 per year. And there is a very vocal group (including one poster quoted on this thread) who are adamant at least 30% more pay was available. Of course, that claim canít be tested. Anyone with half a brain knows itís laughable and those subscribing to it are living in a fantasy land.

As to the OP statement, good luck them. Iíll certainly be watching with interest and hoping for the best!
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 02:27
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Beer Baron View Post
ExtraShot, I acknowledge that I donít have a good working knowledge of the JQ EA and I stated as much in my original post. There are definitely additions there that I have not included such as you listed. However the QF figure also does not include many additions such as ADTA/ODTA, working divisor +5, overtime (yes there is still overtime in some circumstances on the 787).
The 175 hour figure used is based on the actual current divisor in all bases. I donít know what hours the JQ guys are doing.

The the difference may not be 70% but itís pretty sizeable.

I understand that. But itís nowhere near 70%, not even remotely close. 175 hr divisors shouldnít be the norm anyway given planning divisor for the 787 is about 20 hrs lower... (correct establishments for a different thread perhaps!?). But letís start by doing the QF calculation there rather than the extremes.

A quick back of envelope calculation With comparable hours the difference would be 15-20 %, if that, probably widening a bit if both groups are on minimium hours. We have divisor plus 5, they have VERY lucrative day off payments (this could close the gap significantly if you were prepared to do it), we have odta they have highline if they choose...

So I donít think itís totally outlandish for them to ask for the gap to be closed,( nor do I necessarily think it will be), but if you donít ask you wonít get.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 02:44
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Back of the envelope figures for minimum guaranteed pay excluding all allowances, ADTA/ODTA, super, bonuses, day off payments, unplanned overtime and divisor + 5 payments:

Jetstar minimum pay: $228,927. Throw in a very generous 1500 hours of high-line at $12.37/duty hour = $248,482 . (I think 1150 duty high line hours is probably more realistic which would make this 243,152).

Qantas year 1 rates minimum pay: 6.5 x 145 + 33 hours passive for training = 975.5 x 327.82 hourly rate + fixed STACR of about $4600 / year = $324,390 = the JQ minimum with 1500 hrs high line plus 30%. At planning divisor of 155 this rises to $345,696 excluding all allowances, ADTA/ODTA and super. At 175 max divisor plus training and STACR = $388,313 Note that these 145, 155and 175 divisors are credit not stick hours.

Qantas year 4 rates minimum pay: 6.5 x 145 + 33 hours passive for training = 975.5 x 353.03 hourly rate + fixed STACR of about $4600 / year = $348,980 = the JQ minimum with 1500 hrs high line plus 40.5%. At planning divisor of 155 this rises to $367,327 excluding all allowances, ADTA/ODTA and super. At 175 max divisor plus training and STACR = $417,821. Note that these 145,155 and 175 divisors are credit not stick hours.

You would need to be working close to CAO/EBA limits to be doing 175 hour credit hours divisors for the year, just as as JQ pilots would be need to be doing well over 75 hours per roster period to start making large gains on their pay.

Not an expert on the JQ EBA but the mainline allowances are linked to the top ATO allowance table (currently AUD 295 per day in USA/LHR/HKG) - not sure if the JQ is as well or to the lower table? AFAIK the JQ ADTA/ODTA numbers are also lower than mainline.

Last edited by Tuner 2; 23rd Jan 2019 at 03:34.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 02:54
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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What's your argument ExtraShot, Turner 2?
Are you saying that QF pilots are over paid, JQ pilots are under paid, JQ pilots don't deserve the same pay as QF pilots?? Arguing over who gets what suggests you're missing the point a bit, or am I?
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