Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

AFAP go rogue

Old 22nd Jan 2019, 00:42
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Some inaccuracies (as expected) with respect to short haul QF vs JQ day to day...the reality is everyone is working hard, especially short haul on both sides.

Positive: This generally means plenty of opportunity to make extra $$ in overtime and top up the pretty reasonable pay scale across both left and right seats (in my opinion).
Not so: As for work-life balance...unfortunately remains very heavily dependant on your base - no amount of negotiating will really ever take the workload off the likes of SYD and MEL bases. Sorry, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. That’s business.

Can things be better - Always.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 00:46
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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The Fair Work Act provides ample protection. I hope Alan thinks he holds the aces. Time and time again we have seen recently where those ‘in power’ think like that, but the reality is the people have the power.

More likely JB, whilst you create valid discussion, you’re far from being accurate in your assessment.

These EBA’s are likely to be heavily negotiated, they are likely to be voted down at least once, maybe there will be no new aircraft arriving....so be it. The difference is that management will be required to make decisions in the face of industrial challenges without the ‘help’ of the industrial umpire. His 100 year celebration / parade is shaping to be an (expensive) industrial mess which is quite apt, as that is his legacy.

ps...every pilot deserves to be remunerated in line with market forces. I support those who push for better conditions in line with those forces.


Last edited by crosscutter; 22nd Jan 2019 at 01:00.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 00:57
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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So the 82% “mugs” (your words) who never thought they would fly it are now bidding to fly it? That makes sense.. I see that the 747 RIN Capts are all bidding for the 787 instead of the 330 where they would enjoy the benefits of strict seniority for bidding. Gee the 787 must be awful.

Regarding your Whitlam comment, did it ever occur to you that many pilots prefer not to disagree with a pilot who holds a strong industrial opinion like you do because they would rather not be in disgareement with their boss at work? Many times I’ve seen some IR expert pilot holding court about how screwed over he is with everyone kind of nodding along. As soon as he leaves, everyone else agrees with how out of touch he is. That might help you understand the 82%
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 00:59
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly what part of the arbitrated result was good for the pilots?
Pay, no worse than what they were going to get anyway, and better than what was being asked for (sure that was provided there was job security provisions which were a long shot anyway)

Shared blank lines, yes junior crew were devastated at this one. Devastated I tells ya.

Back pay, IIRC the company took it off the table and then were told they had to pay it anyway.

Indeed, The company had some wins as well, and after such a diabolically bad industrial campaign it wasn’t a necessarily a terrible outcome. ‘Quite good actually’ being Relative and perhaps flippant but still. It could have been far worse. It’s certainly not something AFAP should be afraid of.


No doubt there is room to improve our contract and for the company to be able to absorb that, but to be saying we want mainline pay is unrealistic and a waste of everyone’s time
No it’s not a waste of time, because if that’s what you ask for and fall short, chances are you’d be better off than otherwise. If you dont think you’re worth it or don’t have the fortitude for a bit of a struggle, then that’s up to you.

End of the day you get paid what you negotiate nothing more nothing less. If you are in a stronger bargaining position than the company you can expect to get a better deal
Yep. Good luck to AFAP and JQ crew. It’s nice to see a pilots Union that’s at least not afraid to ask.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 01:12
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Justin. Beaver View Post
So the 82% “mugs” (your words) who never thought they would fly it are now bidding to fly it? That makes sense.. I see that the 747 RIN Capts are all bidding for the 787 instead of the 330 where they would enjoy the benefits of strict seniority for bidding. Gee the 787 must be awful.

Regarding your Whitlam comment, did it ever occur to you that many pilots prefer not to disagree with a pilot who holds a strong industrial opinion like you do because they would rather not be in disgareement with their boss at work? Many times I’ve seen some IR expert pilot holding court about how screwed over he is with everyone kind of nodding along. As soon as he leaves, everyone else agrees with how out of touch he is. That might help you understand the 82%
The only problem with that comment is I don’t bring it up first they do. Secondly, the pilots going to the 787 off the 747 are going with a gun at their head, they can’t commute any more it’s become impossible, don’t believe me then ask them, they don’t want to go. Lastly, you don’t want to comment on the 35% productivity you gave away, I wonder why?
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 01:27
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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If they don’t want to commute then they can pick from 4 A330 bases and avoid the supposedly ‘appalling’ 787 and retain bidding seniority .

Re productivity - poductivity can be measured many ways. I have no idea how 35% was arrived at. Do you? The ceo might choose a figure that gives a high number so as to give a nice headline and send a signal to the market and other workgroups. I haven’t worked how more or less productive the 787 is. Even if 35% is accurate, it shows how unproductive the 747 and A380 might be since the CAO limits still apply to the 787.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 02:00
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
The only problem with that comment is I don’t bring it up first they do. Secondly, the pilots going to the 787 off the 747 are going with a gun at their head, they can’t commute any more it’s become impossible, don’t believe me then ask them, they don’t want to go. Lastly, you don’t want to comment on the 35% productivity you gave away, I wonder why?
That’s very true! Commuting is a dead rabbit nowadays for LongHaul Pilots. Domestic Staff Travel means nothing, whether you have three years’ service of 33 years! I know three Pilots who have jumped to the B-787 of recent as the commuting to and from Sydney became intolerable. You will see more of it too!

The lads I meet on the B-787 are not happy campers – a lot of that discomfort could be because the type is in a constant state of Training-Flux and the flying is needed for Training which disrupts a lot of patterns and lifestyles. Could also be that they work much harder to get their dollars and comparatively have less time-off after LongHaul operations. Fairly crappy deal when you analyse it in comparison to other LongHaul fleets!

When the B-787 Sydney Base opens, and Chicago hits the mix that may not help either as there is a load of Pilots about to be Rinned from the B-747.

I say go AFAP and colleagues at JQ for better pay and T & C's. Don’t trust AIPA is you first smart and strategic move! AIPA Executive’s and a few on the self-interest AIPA Committee have far too much in invested interests in seeing themselves as the third tier of Qantas Management or a historic Pathway to a Flight operations position… then working against their Colleagues!
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 02:12
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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My view is for AFAP to go for it. The way AIPA are going the JQ pilots may very overtake the QF pilots. A lesson here to be learned is the JQ guys signed up to a deal and this was deliberately set up to undercut mainline and there were volunteers aplenty and now they want more. It is much more difficult to claw back conditions once they are given away. AIPA are in there FAAA phase where they think the only way to secure flying is to sell(or should I say GIVE conditions away!). One of the most stupid negotiations seen in my lifetime(except for 1989) was to give away the right to claim Overtime and NIght Credits in the next round of negotiations! (Who does that!) The problem the Jetstar pilots have as the mainline pilots have found out is that they can be undercut and the Company has Cobham and Network all set to do this. Stop the dog eat dog and start to work together for ALL pilots both present and future. The shortage will start to bite in the Regionals and work it's way into the various subsidiaries and pilots who want a career can go elsewhere. The only winner here is the Company if the pilots keep going down this path. Maybe the Former AIPA President will do well who knows but Qantas mid-level management has many dead bodies(especially in the Alan Joyce era).
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 02:20
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Justin, have you moved?
Where is Elysium in relation to the Campus?
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 02:31
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Rated De, it’s a fictional place similar the one where you and dragon man live.

busdriver, I say good luck to the AFAP too. The only 787 contract they have ever negotiated is significantly worse than the mainline 787 deal and their usual tactic of partial work bans may well play into management’s hands and drive an outcome far more serious than an arbitration. But I’m sure you’d have another multimillion dollar legal bill and $400 levy ready for that.
Justin. Beaver is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 03:10
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by busdriver007 View Post
The problem the Jetstar pilots have as the mainline pilots have found out is that they can be undercut and the Company has Cobham and Network all set to do this.
We have to stop thinking this. It is legally incorrect. Lower cost subsidiary growth cannot occur whilst the main entity shrinks. That is transfer of business against provisions in the Fair Work Act. It has not occurred to Qantas as a result of Cobham and Network (in a way that has shrunk Mainline.)

This thinking is entrenched in our psych because of (ironically) the introduction of Jetstar but that is a separate circumstance and even then I’m not sure it could be proven the Mainline flying was reduced as opposed to stalled.

For people that want more balance in my assertion here’s a bigger threat. QF start say SYD-NAN. To free up 737s, a subsidiary is given say MEL-CBR. Then after 12 months the Fiji route is deemed unsustainable and guess what...737s don’t automatically get MEL-CBR back.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 04:30
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the B787 deal in the last LH EBA will go down in history as one of the most appalling sell outs of pilots ever.The hard won conditions that since 1966 have given a reasonable work/life/pay balance were thrown away.

The deal should have never been put to the vote or put to the vote with the recommendation it be rejected. The scare tactics put forward by AIPA were a disgrace when a better deal was obviously available. I am sure management could not believe the gullibility of pilots when it was voted up – high fives all round.

Is it correct that at least one involved from the union side has now got their reward with a company job? Thirty pieces of silver for Judas?


The next EBA must surely focus on repairing the damage to the LH contract or the future is very bleak. If people want rapid promotion with second rate pay and conditions they can work for one of the low cost carriers. Pilots want a work/life/pay balance that is sustainable for the long term.AIPA should be about dragging up pay & conditions, not dragging them down in a race to the bottom.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 04:54
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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“Even if 35% is accurate, it shows how unproductive the 747 and A380 might be since the CAO limits still apply to the 787”

With a comment like that JB you show your true colours as been a management representative. I fly the line ,do my 850 stick hours a year , nothing fictional about it I can assure you.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 05:09
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
“Even if 35% is accurate, it shows how unproductive the 747 and A380 might be since the CAO limits still apply to the 787”

With a comment like that JB you show your true colours as been a management representative. I fly the line ,do my 850 stick hours a year , nothing fictional about it I can assure you.
That’s great dragon. in the meantime there’s no shortage of bidders to the ‘appalling’ 787 including 747 Capts choosing it over not commuting and being senior on the A330.

They must be the 82% of your colleagues you sit next to but describe as ‘mugs’, while you 18% teacups cheer at the AFAP’s apparently amazing achievement of lodging an unrealistic log of claims in jetstar which they know has zero chance of success.

The same AFAP whose only 787 contract pays at least 30 or 40% less than the ‘appaling’ mainline 787 terms (including allowances and depending on rank). How impressive. Wake me up when they actually achieve something.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 05:52
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Just so I get this correct, a year 1 mainline 787 Capt earns $328 an hour. 6.5 bid periods per year at say 175 hours equals $372,000 a year. You say that the AFAP contract has the 787 pilots earning $223,000 (40% less). Can someone please confirm that as I find it hard to believe.
dragon man is online now  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 06:08
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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So... another self righteous millenial "Beaver", living with all the other muppets in their self-titled Elysium, slings diatribe at the very people who enable HIM to put food on the table!
You muppets forget who actually generates the income, day or night, rain hail or shine, all around the globe on arduous and often fatiguing rosters... while you pricks smuggly sit with your fresh muffin, branded coffee & Mum's lunchbox by your side...
The saying of "Biting the hand that feeds you", comes to mind, Justin and the tables have turned now, with no "untapped labour market" to get 457's for the global pilot shortage; huge drop in applicant experience levels; pending retirements; Cadet Schools that can't get off the ground; aging and breaking fleet... the list goes on.

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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 06:18
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Justin. Beaver View Post


That’s great dragon. in the meantime there’s no shortage of bidders to the ‘appalling’ 787 including 747 Capts choosing it over not commuting and being senior on the A330.

They must be the 82% of your colleagues you sit next to but describe as ‘mugs’, while you 18% teacups cheer at the AFAP’s apparently amazing achievement of lodging an unrealistic log of claims in jetstar which they know has zero chance of success.

The same AFAP whose only 787 contract pays at least 30 or 40% less than the ‘appaling’ mainline 787 terms (including allowances and depending on rank). How impressive. Wake me up when they actually achieve something.
Geeezz that Beaver bloke sounds like an interesting piece of work!

I agree with a few of the other posts on this thread. We would all be better off standing united.

Meanwhile, DragonMan have a look here: https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/doc...a/ae413585.pdf
Capt Colonial is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 06:45
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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One does wonder, looking at his post history, how much JB's being paid to do this.

Probably less than the pilots though, considering how bitter he seems to be.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 07:01
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 130herc View Post
One does wonder, looking at his post history, how much JB's being paid to do this.

Probably less than the pilots though, considering how bitter he seems to be.
Devoid of fact, full of vitriol is a badge worn with pride in airline administrative facilities worldwide.

Interestingly Justin, the AFAP agreement with Commissioner Cribb's stamp was dated 21 April 2015.
That is almost four years ago.
Qantas hadn't been 'transformed' as Little Napoleon's options hadn't vested.
  • There was no pilot academy, We note that it has no facility, no aircraft, no instructors and is yet to turn out an 'airline ready product'
  • Their Network Aviation skilled shortage visa that the Stream Lead and others beaver away on (pun intended) is under subscribed, despite substantial signing bonuses (hint: far more than Network publicly detail)
  • Sources suggest the pilot retirement rates, as they are here in Europe and in the USA are catching them out. Particularly those pilots well short of 'expected retirement' dates, simply walking away.
Qantas leading from the rear, as Little Napoleon excels at, although dollars short and years late, is determined to control supply at a 'price' they grew accustomed to. They spend an enormous amount of time in Canberra Justin. Unfortunately, the rather large and growing realisation is that the market and industry moved on and a shortage is well established.

There are few laws in economics that actually hold Justin. One that does however is that to attract (induce additional )supply to match demand, price must increase.
Even hedge funds are looking at airline demographics and assessing retirement, retention and recruitment policies. For lack of pilots is a big problem, as generally the theory goes, that without pilots operating revenue drops close to zero. The open interest on the short side is an interesting metric to watch.
So before you dismiss the attempts to increase the input price Justin, it may be of more worth to sit back, do some reading and see what happens.

Just in case the Campus lacks external access to the internet, or indeed it filters results, here are a few articles you can read to update your information.




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...bites/10012624

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisag.../#ea95cdb15492

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/airlines-pilot-shortage-cancelled-routes-2018-8?r=US&IR=T
Rated De is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 07:55
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Rated, I’ll read your links once I can stop laughing at being accused of being full of vitriol by someone who has 900 posts full
of vitriol directed at the same people over and over and over again
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